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[nyong]

Its absolutely atrocious and the government has given its silent support.

Wait, 5% of all white South African farmers have been brutally murdered? I have a hard time believing this. I know families in Zimbabwa were massacred with machetes and stuff, but this is the first I've heard of anything like that taking place in SA.

 

[Dead Man]

White people farm like this:

While black people farm like this:

WTF?

 

[dinazimmerman]

nvm

 

[harSon]

The important question, then, is why did Africa lag behind for some decades when Asia and other parts of the Third World were busy growing dramatically?

Partial answers:
-Anti-market, authoritarian governments
-Widespread corruption
-Tropical climate, disease
-Low foreign investment

I think a lack of unification has a lot to do with it as well. Until recently, the most well off countries within the continent were concentrated in North Africa, most of which didn't identify with countries south of the Sahara, and as a result, not much happened between them. With the rise of South Africa and Nigeria, we're starting to see a lot more unification between Sub-Saharan countries.

 

[xbhaskarx]

Sorry dude, I beat you to the punch. :lol

You did :lol

 

[Kaeru]

Wait, 5% of all white South African farmers have been brutally murdered? I have a hard time believing this. I know families in Zimbabwa were massacred with machetes and stuff, but this is the first I've heard of anything like that taking place in SA.

Its actually more than that. I found a more recent update that says up to 3000 white farmers have been brutally murdered:

The South African farming community has suffered from attacks for many years.[1] The majority of the victims have been white farmers, with claims of death tolls of up to 3,000 (February 2009) cited in the media.[2] The independent South African Human Rights Commission, set up by former President Mandela’s government, quantifies the number at about 2,500[3], while farmers’ organisations state the figure to be closer to 3,000.[3] The Commission's[clarification needed][who?] report found that the rate of murders had increased by 25% since 2005[3].The victims' ages have ranged from infant to 87 years old

.

And its increasing as well. All while the world silently watch. In a few years 10% of all the white farmers in SA have been murdered. And this doesnt even acoount for all the attacks that were "just" rapes, mutilations, arson etc etc.

I had a long long discussion once with a flight captain who was born in Zimbabwe and you all know what happened when Mugabe took over. They fled to SA to start a new life. After the apartheid ended things went from good to bad and from bad to worse and he was seriously thinking of leaving to the UK. He didnt want to see his son grow up in a country where you as a white man would get discriminated and singled out just because of the color of your skin.

Tragedy!

 

[harSon]

Whites are a minority in SA and should be protected.

All of South Africa's citizens should be protected, I don't see how being a minority within a country makes you more deserving of protection.

 

[Kaeru]

All of South Africa's citizens should be protected, I don't see how being a minority within a country makes you more deserving of protection.

White people in Africa who are not wealthy or have political power are in an extreme vulnerable situation.
It has gotten so bad that Canada recently allowed a white SA man to seek asylum as a refugee because he was risking his life should he return. Why? Because the color of his skin

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/ottsun/090828/canada/white_south_african_granted_refugee_status

 

[xbhaskarx]

I think a lack of unification has a lot to do with it as well. Until recently, the most well off countries within the continent were concentrated in North Africa, most of which didn't identify with countries south of the Sahara, and as a result, not much happened between them. With the rise of South Africa and Nigeria, we're starting to see a lot more unification between Sub-Saharan countries.

I don't know what exactly unification means or how one quantifies it or determines its economic impact, but the bottom line is capitalism and globalization are finally reaching sub-Saharan Africa and finally poverty is being reduced at a rate that may lag behind Asia but is not an embarrassment.

 

[harSon]

White people in Africa who are not wealthy or have political power are in an extreme vulnerable situation.
It has gotten so bad that Canada recently allowed a white SA man to seek asylum as a refugee because he was risking his life should he return. Why? Because the color of his skin

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/ottsun/090828/canada/white_south_african_granted_refugee_status

As opposed to the millions of blacks under poverty, who are subject to high levels of violence within the country's townships? I'm not getting your point.

 

[J-Rod]

Wait, there is a stereotype that black people can't farm? Never heard that one.

 

[seanoff]

the whites mostly got that land through govt policy and outright racism so some policy redress to spread the wealth is probably not a bad idea. If the land was brought by the govt at a reasonable price, and voluntarily then that is OK.

however hastening slowly may have been a better option. train the people who the farms were given to, to work the farms properly. this may have been better than parachuting someone into a productive farm with bugger all training, support and probably limited money.




BTW South African farmers aren't the only ones getting offed. the murder rate in SA makes it 9th on the list of murder rates in the world. 37 per 100,000. as a comparison Australia is at 1.2 per 100,000, Japan 0.44 per 100,000, England 1.37 and the US which is very poor among Western countries at 5.4 / 100,000

It's just not a very safe place really, farmer or not.

 

[siddx]

This is going to be an awkward thread.

Let me just say, if one person knows how to make a farm productive because he has been working it for decades, and that farm is just handed off to someone else, it is in poor logic to expect the same results.

First post should have ended thread. This happened all over Africa. Farms that were run for decades by white farmers get handed to people who had never farmed anything larger than small fields, if that. Of course they don't know how to farm on such a huge scale, they were never taught.

 

[harSon]

I don't know what exactly unification means or how one quantifies it or determines its economic impact, but the bottom line is capitalism and globalization are finally reaching sub-Saharan Africa and finally poverty is being reduced at a rate that may lag behind Asia but is not an embarrassment.

Similar to how European and Asian countries have banded together within their respected continents to create unions at a political and economic level.

 

[Kaeru]

As opposed to the millions of blacks under poverty, who are subject to high levels of violence within the country's townships? I'm not getting your point.

At least theyre not being targeted just because of the color of their skin.
Racial violence is the worst kind of violence, and that its happening in SA of all places is terrible. History repeating itself. But theres no boycott this time...

 

[xbhaskarx]

Wait, there is a stereotype that black people can't farm? Never heard that one.

Do you mean the "white/black people farm like this" comment? That's just a reference to an old joke (as seen on The Simpsons) that apparently went over idahoblue's head.

Edit: WTF he got banned for that?
Just for clarification, Blackace and Hitokage, are any other Simpsons references bannable?

 

[charsace]

Make the black and white people play on the same team and the farms will be profitable.

 

[SimpleDesign]

It's just not a very safe place really, farmer or not.

Highest number of reported rapes per capita happen in South Africa. Gang rape is considered a form of male bonding. I hear child-rape is also a big problem there.

Of those surveyed, 28% said they had raped a woman or girl, and 3% said they had raped a man or boy. Almost half who said they had carried out a rape admitted they had done so more than once, with 73% saying they had carried out their first assault before the age of 20.

South Africa Rape Study: 1 In 4 Men Admit Rape

 

[Blackace]

Edit: WTF he got banned for that?
Just for clarification, Blackace and Hitokage, are any other Simpsons references bannable?

not everyone has time to cross check every single off color joke to make sure they are Simpsons' references.. Use at your own risk.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

There's been plenty of big cricket tournaments in South Africa over the past few years (ie IPL and ODI/T20 World Cups), so I doubt the FIFA World Cup won't be run quite smoothly.

As to the farming, this is what happens when you break down large commercial farms into smaller, less productive farms on a massive scale. The education issue isn't so bad in South Africa as to explain this, otherwise. Although I'm sure there are a significant degree of poor uneducated people caught in a vicious cycle of debt and relative poverty after taking what they thought would be the wise step of moving into a small farm - something to call their own that would provide a sustainable income or so they thought.

Oh and Nelson Mandela was a terrorist, thats why organizations like Amnesty wouldnt adopt him as a "prisoner of conscience". Killing innocent people is never justified, no matter what the cause is!!!

:lol Are you including the American Revolution in that? Have you ever head this phrase: "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"? What about all the innocent people who died in the bombing of Baghdad that served as a precursor to the invasion of Iraq? Truth is, things aren't nearly so simple or black-and-white. Of course, if the intent is to kill innocent people, then this is a different discussion, but let's not deny that the deaths of innocent people have been justified as collateral damage by military organizations throughout history.

Also, Mandela was a leader of the ANC's military arm, but I'm not aware that they actually killed an innocent person (they mainly went after government and commercial targets) or even killed any type of person - at least, while he was there.

 

[talisayNon]

Lack of economies of scale + technology. Same thing happened with redistribution in Zimbabwe in early 2000s.

Most of those lands aren't arable either.

Edit: BBC's not a good source for this either...their.."interests" are skewed.

 

[Kaeru]

:lol Are you including the American Revolution in that? Have you ever head this phrase: "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"? What about all the innocent people who died in the bombing of Baghdad that served as a precursor to the invasion of Iraq? Truth is, things aren't nearly so simple or black-and-white.

Also, Mandela was a leader of the ANC's military arm, but I'm not aware that they actually killed an innocent person (they mainly went after government and commercial targets) or even killed any type of person - at least, while he was there.

That is just wrong, no matter who said it. I believe that everyone has a right to live.
Im a humanist I guess. Vengeance is not my cup of tea!

And yes ANCs military arm killed a lot of civilians.

 

[funkmasterb]

"the long walk to freedom" is an excellent grounding for understanding WTF is going on over there. It's pretty disturbing to see, as mandella was all about forgiveness and this sure doesn't sound like it.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I agree, farms have been given to friends of the people in charge rather than people who know how to run a farm. It's similar to Zimbabwe's land redistribution which has shown to be failing. In time though as you say it will get better.

And that's what's worrisome. Rembember, Mbeki still looks at Mugabe with stars and twinkles in his eyes...

That is just wrong, no matter who said it. I believe that everyone has a right to live.
Im a humanist I guess. Vengeance is not my cup of tea!

But it is for tyrants. (This has nothing to do with the SA question at hand).

 

[Kaeru]

"the long walk to freedom" is an excellent grounding for understanding WTF is going on over there. It's pretty disturbing to see, as mandella was all about forgiveness and this sure doesn't sound like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKiePbTcAfY
Mandela participating in a song about killing white people.

 

[Dead Man]

Do you mean the "white/black people farm like this" comment? That's just a reference to an old joke (as seen on The Simpsons) that apparently went over idahoblue's head.

Edit: WTF he got banned for that?
Just for clarification, Blackace and Hitokage, are any other Simpsons references bannable?

Yeah, didn't get the reference at all. I haven't seen that episode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKiePbTcAfY
Mandela participating in a song about killing white people.

Hmmm... I see white people singing too.

 

[talisayNon]

And I've had gay friends grind on the dance floor to Chi Chi Mon :yawn:

 

[Tim the Wiz]

That is just wrong, no matter who said it. I believe that everyone has a right to live.
Im a humanist I guess. Vengeance is not my cup of tea!

So, you believe there are no justified wars or military revolutions at all? Oh dear. Although I'm against the death penalty, I would argue that some people do give up their right to live. (As such, taking away someone's liberty is worse than taking away their life, and prevents mistakes in cases of non-absolute certainty.)

And yes ANCs military arm killed a lot of civilians.

The main thing that's being repudiated is that it took place under Mandela's leadership. The atrocious stuff, especially the landmines and the suburban bombings, happened in the late 70s and 80s.

 

[Gaborn]

I really am not going to touch this topic much because it's WAYYYY too much of a minefield. I will say that IF you're going to take land that is being used productively and give it to someone else the least you can do is ensure the person you're going to give it to can use it at LEAST as well as the previous owner. It's like Sandra Day O'Connor said in her Kelo dissent:

The logic of today's decision is that eminent domain may only be used to upgrade--not downgrade--property. At best this makes the Public Use Clause redundant with the Due Process Clause, which already prohibits irrational government action. See Lingle, 544 U. S. __. The Court rightfully admits, however, that the judiciary cannot get bogged down in predictive judgments about whether the public will actually be better off after a property transfer. In any event, this constraint has no realistic import. For who among us can say she already makes the most productive or attractive possible use of her property? The specter of condemnation hangs over all property. Nothing is to prevent the State from replacing any Motel 6 with a Ritz-Carlton, any home with a shopping mall, or any farm with a factory.

Except in THIS situation rather than "upgrading" it was a "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" approach, since I'm sure SOME of the new farmers had to do at least as well or better than the previous farmers.

 

[numble]

I really am not going to touch this topic much because it's WAYYYY too much of a minefield. I will say that IF you're going to take land that is being used productively and give it to someone else the least you can do is ensure the person you're going to give it to can use it at LEAST as well as the previous owner. It's like Sandra Day O'Connor said in her Kelo dissent:

Except in THIS situation rather than "upgrading" it was a "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" approach, since I'm sure SOME of the new farmers had to do at least as well or better than the previous farmers.

Sandra Day O'Connor wrote the opinion of Midkiff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Housing_Authority_v._Midkiff), which authorized transfer of private property for the breaking up of land oligopolies.

 

[harSon]

I don't why we're bothering to respond to Kaeru's statements, his posting history is questionable at best.

 

[Kaeru]

So, you believe there are no justified wars or military revolutions at all? Oh dear. Although I'm against the death penalty, I would argue that some people do give up their right to live. (As such, taking away someone's liberty is worse than taking away their life, and prevents mistakes in cases of non-absolute certainty.)



The main thing that's being repudiated is that it took place under Mandela's leadership. The atrocious stuff, especially the landmines and the suburban bombings, happened in the late 70s and 80s.

Of course the HR can be taken away from you. But it should NOT be because the color of your skin.

And im not saying that Mandela killed anyone, or gave the orders.
But do I have a problem with the image of him as a saint? Uhmm yeah...hell yeah.

 

[Gaborn]

Sandra Day O'Connor wrote the opinion of Midkiff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Housing_Authority_v._Midkiff), which authorized transfer of private property for the breaking up of land oligopolies.

Yup, and how did that work out?

However, the aftermath of the Midkiff decision failed to achieve the stated purpose of the redistribution legislation which was incapable of creating new housing because it only transferred title from the land lessor to the lessee-homeowners who already occupied existing homes on the subject property. As soon as the former lessees acquired fee simple titles to their homes, those became attractive to Japanese investors and speculators who paid outlandish prices for those homes (largely located in the upscale Kahala and Hawaii Kai neighborhoods), causing a ripple effect throughout the island. Home prices on Oahu, far from falling as intended by the legislature, surged upward and more than doubled within six years.

Plus, as they held in Midkiff:

"A purely private taking could not withstand the scrutiny of the public use requirement; it would serve no legitimate purpose of government and would thus be void... The Court's cases have repeatedly stated that 'one person's property may not be taken for the benefit of another private person without a justifying public purpose, even though compensation be paid.’ "

This strikes me as if not "ideal" then much closer to it as far as limitations go. I'm not trying to apply US law to SA of course, but in general I see NO reason to give land to someone else JUST for the sake of doing so. If a monopoly or oligopoly needs to be broken up, then fine, but do you really need to destroy the agricultural value of the land to achieve it?

 

[Kitschkraft]

I honestly don't get this thought process.

The ANC aren't saints by any means but since they took power, South Africa has:

- Seen its unemployment drop from 50% (Most of which were Black South Africans) to 23.5%
- Lowered its dept from 5% of GDP to .05% of GDP
- Has averaged a sustainable 3-5% in growth, annually, since 1994.
- Has increased its exports significantly over the last decade.
- Has worked to minimize government involvement in industry, promoting private sector investment and competition.
- Diversified its economy, only 3-4% of which is dependent on Agriculture, while services accounts for 65%. As opposed to Zimbabwe who's agriculture accounted for more than half of its total GDP.
- Increased its involvement in the rest of the continent, basically becoming the backbone for much of it.
- Become one of 7 countries in the world to allow same sex marriage.

That's not to say everything has been a success. Recent energy issues, less than ideal results in education (and those who do succeed are lost to other countries), an inability to control violence levels and its failures in tending to the AIDS crisis for example. But that doesn't change the fact that South Africa has made several strides in the past 15 years, people seem to forget that its only been 15 years since the oppressive Apartheid regime was in control. Change doesn't happen over night.

Great facts, I didn't know a lot of this.

But to be honest, in my eyes, the fact that the entire population has equal rights as citizens now, is really the only thing that matters to me.

You don't get decades upon decades of hierarchical rule for free, a system upheld the status quo, and when that system fails, things are going to change....I see a lot of bitching about SA amongst people online and I feel that a lot of the time, this fact almost gets thrown under the rug, like it's just a small aspect of the situation.

I am only 22, so if I lived in SA, I would have lived under Apartheid until I was 7? I'd be angry as hell, and wouldn't have much sympathy for many of the new problems that have arose because of my freedom. Imagine how the people actually running the country now must feel, grown ass men that went through this shit.

 

[avatar299]

I don't why we're bothering to respond to Kaeru's statements, his posting history is questionable at best.

oh the irony

 

[numble]

Yup, and how did that work out?

Look at graphs of housing prices in general for the US between 1984 and 1990, it is not a surprise that the same thing happened on the island of Hawaii, especially when you include the impact of Japanese land speculators at the time. The legislative purpose was not to lower land prices, but to break up the oligopoly.

 

[Hitokage]

oh the irony

Double word score?

 

[harSon]

oh the irony

Just come out and say it.

I really don't get why people think I'm racist or some kind of delusional afrocentrist, I'm probably the biggest multiculturalist on this board.

 

[shuri]

Wait, 5% of all white South African farmers have been brutally murdered? I have a hard time believing this. I know families in Zimbabwa were massacred with machetes and stuff, but this is the first I've heard of anything like that taking place in SA.

I think you have some catching up to do, this has been going on for years

 

[trinest]

I want to know if they are giving it to original black farmers? Otherwise the supression was probably long enough for the originals who knew the ways to have died off- or are now to old to continue doing what they used to do- so its obvious if your giving it to anyone- they are not going to know wtf is going on.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

And im not saying that Mandela killed anyone, or gave the orders.
But do I have a problem with the image of him as a saint? Uhmm yeah...hell yeah.

Your earlier post seems to imply the contrary: "Oh and Nelson Mandela was a terrorist, thats why organizations like Amnesty wouldnt adopt him as a "prisoner of conscience". Killing innocent people is never justified, no matter what the cause is!!!" If Mandela falls so far foul of your model of terrorism, why are you not more angered by the peoples and institutions that make him, a man never involved in the killing of any persons, look like a mouse standing next to an elephant. Where is the bile towards the state-terrorism that has recently occurred in Iran? Where is the self-righteous rage at the US and Israel, who risk and incidentally take the lives of innocent people in their pursuit of "enemy combatants"? Your passions on this subject simply appear too wildly disproportionate not to be suspect.

- Diversified its economy, only 3-4% of which is dependent on Agriculture, while services accounts for 65%. As opposed to Zimbabwe who's agriculture accounted for more than half of its total GDP.

This is an important point. The people saying that South Africa is going down the road of Zimbabwe are the type of people who base their analysis of a nation's economy on what they read in a series of non-contextual news reports.

 

[Gaborn]

Look at graphs of housing prices in general for the US between 1984 and 1990, it is not a surprise that the same thing happened on the island of Hawaii, especially when you include the impact of Japanese land speculators at the time. The legislative purpose was not to lower land prices, but to break up the oligopoly.

It was, as I understood it two-fold. Afterall, an oligopoly or a monopoly is not by itself necessarily bad. What's bad is what comes with it: Lack of competition, higher prices, and less consumer choice. Saying they want to break up the oligopoly is "nice" but it doesn't address the real problem unless you think they were breaking up the oligopoly just "because."

 

[quaere]

I don't think "culture" or "colonialism" are complete answers, though. You guys have to realize Africa was not always the poorest region of the world, not even 50 years ago.

Quoting from this article:

This fact also totally destroys the claim that Africa is poor because Africans are somehow inherently less productive.

What? No it doesn't. You'll have to explain that logic to me.

 

[avatar299]

Just come out and say it.

I really don't get why people think I'm racist or some kind of delusional afrocentrist, I'm probably the biggest multiculturalist on this board.

okay, I think you are afrocentrist and i don't think your credibility is that much better than Kaeru's especially after brushing off the white guy seeking asylum in Canada as if that's just bad luck. You just get less heat because he is considered right wing on this board and you aren't.

 

[harSon]

okay, I think you are afrocentrist and i don't think your credibility is that much better than Kaeru's especially after brushing off the white guy seeking asylum in Canada as if that's just bad luck. You just get less heat because he is considered right wing on this board and you aren't.

http://neogaf.net/forum/showthread.php?t=373041

Did you even read the thread? :lol I said it's strange that he didn't alert authorities considering he was supposedly attacked, stabbed, ostracized, etc. and if the country's inability to protect him is grounds for asylum, that blacks from townships should be granted it as well should they attempt to gain it.

I don't really get how I'm afrocentric, the only reason I stick out in threads regarding blacks, africans, etc. is because I'm typically one of few with a viewpoint from that angle. You're going to have to come up with something better than that...

 

[numble]

It was, as I understood it two-fold. Afterall, an oligopoly or a monopoly is not by itself necessarily bad. What's bad is what comes with it: Lack of competition, higher prices, and less consumer choice. Saying they want to break up the oligopoly is "nice" but it doesn't address the real problem unless you think they were breaking up the oligopoly just "because."

And you can't say that just because land prices rose in the same manner as the rest of the US land prices at the time, that that means the program was a failure. Both the opinion and legislature focus far more on the past feudal system of land ownership based on the Hawaiian monarchy, and the social evils that continuing a system that resembled that, rather than your points about higher prices. They also focused on how the oligopoly refused to sell land, and forced people to become tenants. And again, unless you can find another American island that continued feudal oligopolistic land ownership in the wake of Japanese speculation, you can't establish any clear relationship on whether or not the policy failed with regard to land prices.

 

[Gaborn]

And you can't say that just because land prices rose in the same manner as the rest of the US land prices at the time, that that means the program was a failure. Both the opinion and legislature focus far more on the past feudal system of land ownership based on the Hawaiian monarchy, and the social evils that continuing a system that resembled that, rather than your points about higher prices. They also focused on how the oligopoly refused to sell land, and forced people to become tenants. And again, unless you can find another American island that continued feudal oligopolistic land ownership in the wake of Japanese speculation, you can't establish any clear relationship on whether or not the policy failed with regard to land prices.

Not that I'm doing so, I was just quoting a wikipedia article :lol. Although to be honest everything I've heard is that land in Hawaii is EXTREMELY expensive compared to almost anywhere else. Which makes some sense because it's an island chain, but still.

 

[Kaeru]

Just come out and say it.

I really don't get why people think I'm racist or some kind of delusional afrocentrist, I'm probably the biggest multiculturalist on this board.

You almost sound like youre proud about it :S

Tim: Well I cant tell you what to think and what not to think. You see it one way, me I see it another way. Mandela isnt my hero in any way and I always try to make people aware of some of the not so great things he did.

 

[Hitokage]

You almost sound like youre proud about it :S

What the fuck does this mean?

Tim: Well I cant tell you what to think and what not to think. You see it one way, me I see it another way. Mandela isnt my hero in any way and I always try to make people aware of some of the not so great things he did.

Yeah, I guess he didn't make the trains run on time.

 

[Kaeru]

What the fuck does this mean?

Yeah, I guess he didn't make the trains run on time.

That I dont think multiculturalism is a great thing.

What did Mandela accomplish when in office? Besides being a symbol that is.