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[Crisis]

I think the controversy over the episode may have just gotten a lot bigger. It looks like Matt and Trey managed to get a shot of Mohammed in the episode, anyway.

Quick! Stick your heads in the ground!

 

[Snaku]

I think the controversy over the episode may have just gotten a lot bigger. It looks like Matt and Trey managed to get a shot of Mohammed in the episode, anyway.

Quick! Stick your heads in the ground!

:lol :lol :lol

Edit: HAHAHA! Just saw a preview of Scarborough Country, and they're gonna be discussing this. The guy that's hosting it looked like he was gonna burst into tears when he was getting ready to describe what Matt & Trey did to Jesus on this holy week. :lol

 

[pinkatrophe]

It really is black and white when it comes to free speech though. There's no point in saying you have free speech if you don't let people say what they want, especially in an entertainment context. You have it or you don't, because once you say that "so and so" can't say what they want, it's not free speech. It's liberal speech, sure.... you can say a whole lot. But not everything.

I fundamentally agree, but I also think that common sense has to be applied. If SP had an episode that used the term "nigger" and other racial slurs left and right, flat out disrespected people of different cultures, and committed all sorts of acts of indecency, I think people would be acting differently. If South Park is so intent on showing Mohammad, then I'm sure there's a way that they can...just not through Comedy Central. I'm not muslim but I understand that depicting Mohammad is sacreligous, and free speech or not, I think it should be respected. No one here, unless they're muslim, can probably really understand how much of infraction showing Mohammad is, jokingly or not. This isn't a case of simply satirizing scientology, or mildly poking fun at some groups of people and Comedy Central knows this. No one is saying that Stone and Parker can't depict Mohammad, they just can't do it on Comedy Central. It's ultimately no different than why stations censor nudity, extremely obscene language, and other examples of free speech.

 

[Pachinko]

Well I watched it, This 10th season of south park is almost too much matt and trey throwing up their own opinions and not enough traditional south park humour. One might almost think they are pushing the limit as far as it'll go to see if they get pulled of the air or something.

I mean sure cartoon wars had moments that made me laugh , especially the statement of hypocrisy at the end of part 2 but these sorts of statements should almost be left to blogs or something.

 

[Trident]

The "all okay or none okay" argument just doesn't hold up...it's not that black and white.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin

Go back to China, ya commie.

 

[Rlan]

I haven't watched South Park since, like, season 3 or 4. When did Terrance gain all that weight? :lol

 

[FlameOfCallandor]

I haven't watched South Park since, like, season 3 or 4. When did Terrance gain all that weight? :lol

Man you really haven't seen it in a long time. That was like season 5.

 

[Rlan]

I stopped watching it the last year of Primary School, I'm currently in my 3rd year of University

 

[The Shadow]

It is my personal belief that every media outlet has a duty to show pictures of Mohammed in order to give a message that we are not afraid of terrorists and we will not let them win.

It's not even about terrorists IMO.

Kyle said something that really wasn't expanded upon in the episode that I kind of wish was emphasized. He said that the image of Mohammed was offensive to Muslims if Muslims are the ones presenting the image.

It does seem silly to me that non-muslims should be bound to rules that Muslims have. Jews don't eat pork but it's not like they get offended if someone who is not a Jew eats it. Right? That's the way it should be IMHO.

 

[Suburban Cowboy]

well obviously those muslims who riotted are not rational nor are they capable of logic. They don't even really understand the concept of free speech. Most of them believe we are all going to hell anyways since we are not muslim, and even our muslims are going to hell because they affiliate themselves with us. We're already going to hell, but showing a picture of big mo means we're even more damned? Guess we better kill innocent women and children and maybe then we will be worthy of their heaven.

 

[DrForester]

I like how the story right below the Souh park one on MSNBC's television page is a story about David Blane living in an aquarium.

 

[pinkatrophe]

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin

Go back to China, ya commie.

Go stop tasting like über-minty shit, Trident.

 

[jGuru]

It does seem silly to me that non-muslims should be bound to rules that Muslims have. Jews don't eat pork but it's not like they get offended if someone who is not a Jew eats it. Right? That's the way it should be IMHO.

What? so you're comparing a prophet with food? lol

I think any christian will find what happened in the end of that episode pretty offending. I don't know if they care or not, but that doesn't change the fact that it offended Jesus. Heck, even I ,a muslim, find that offending. Why? because alot in islam says that you have to love and care for other prophets.

Hey, I wouldn't mind seeing any cartoonist making fun of a "muslim" because I simply don't care. But making fun of a whole religion! I mean WTF were you thinking?! So that comparison is pretty weak. Offending a musilim != offending a prophet.

I fundamentally agree, but I also think that common sense has to be applied. If SP had an episode that used the term "nigger" and other racial slurs left and right, flat out disrespected people of different cultures, and committed all sorts of acts of indecency, I think people would be acting differently. If South Park is so intent on showing Mohammad, then I'm sure there's a way that they can...just not through Comedy Central. I'm not muslim but I understand that depicting Mohammad is sacreligous, and free speech or not, I think it should be respected. No one here, unless they're muslim, can probably really understand how much of infraction showing Mohammad is, jokingly or not. This isn't a case of simply satirizing scientology, or mildly poking fun at some groups of people and Comedy Central knows this. No one is saying that Stone and Parker can't depict Mohammad, they just can't do it on Comedy Central. It's ultimately no different than why stations censor nudity, extremely obscene language, and other examples of free speech.

As a muslim, I agree 100%, it's very true.

 

[FlameOfCallandor]

fundamentally agree, but I also think that common sense has to be applied. If SP had an episode that used the term "nigger" and other racial slurs left and right, flat out disrespected people of different cultures, and committed all sorts of acts of indecency

South park has made a "nigger" episode as you so put it. It's called Here comes the neighborhood from season 6.

Why would christians be offended by Jesus at the end. Its not like that really was jesus doing that. It was a cartoon depiction of jesus pooping. Who cares. We have this thing in america called free speech in which people can say anything they want. If you are offended you have a right not to listen.

 

[The Shadow]

What? so you're comparing a prophet with food? lol

I think any christian will find what happened in the end of that episode pretty offending. I don't know if they care or not, but that doesn't change the fact that it offended Jesus. Heck, even I ,a muslim, find that offending. Why? because alot in islam says that you have to love and care for other prophets.

False prophet. And yes, yes I did compare him to food.

It's a perfect analogy. If you want to ignore it, fine. It fits though. I don't see why the rules of one religion should apply to someone who does not follow that religion, or someone who isn't religious at all.

 

[whytemyke]

What? so you're comparing a prophet with food? lol

I think any christian will find what happened in the end of that episode pretty offending. I don't know if they care or not, but that doesn't change the fact that it offended Jesus. Heck, even I ,a muslim, find that offending. Why? because alot in islam says that you have to love and care for other prophets.




Hey, I wouldn't mind seeing any cartoonist making fun of a "muslim" because I simply don't care. But making fun of a whole religion! I mean WTF were you thinking?! So that comparison is pretty weak. Offending a musilim != offending a prophet.



As a muslim, I agree 100%, it's very true.

But the fact is that Christians, pissed as they may be, aren't going to hold worldwide protests against this cartoon. We know that from experience. That is the difference between Christians who live in secular western nations and fundamental muslims in the middle east-- Christians are offended and loathe what is done but they understand that it's not everyones religion.

I mean, what's it say to you as a Muslim that a comedy network in the United States, notorious for lampooning everything under the sun, doesn't show a picture of Muhammed and leaves that particular one out because they're afraid that it's going to cause VIOLENCE? It's like a backhanded slap when you realize, and that's how it is for almost any secular person, too, who feels that one persons religion should not trump anyones right to free speech. The fact that our rights are being trumped not by morals but by fear of violence is ridiculous and laughable

 

[jGuru]

False prophet. And yes, yes I did compare him to food.

It's a perfect analogy. If you want to ignore it, fine. It fits though. I don't see why the rules of one religion should apply to someone who does not follow that religion, or someone who isn't religious at all.

I won't comment on you saying he is a false prophet because that's your own belief\opinion and I respect it.

I'm just going to say this. Rules doesn't apply to those who don't follow the religion,true. But atleast give some respect to those who believe in it. Offending a prophet is like offending a nation of people, and I don't see why anyone would like do that just for a 2 seconds laugh?

But the fact is that Christians, pissed as they may be, aren't going to hold worldwide protests against this cartoon. We know that from experience. That is the difference between Christians who live in secular western nations and fundamental muslims in the middle east-- Christians are offended and loathe what is done but they understand that it's not everyones religion.

I mean, what's it say to you as a Muslim that a comedy network in the United States, notorious for lampooning everything under the sun, doesn't show a picture of Muhammed and leaves that particular one out because they're afraid that it's going to cause VIOLENCE? It's like a backhanded slap when you realize, and that's how it is for almost any secular person, too, who feels that one persons religion should not trump anyones right to free speech. The fact that our rights are being trumped not by morals but by fear of violence is ridiculous and laughable

I know, I know, the reaction from those stupid bunch of terrorists is something you can say to be "awful" and I hated it. I mean they should protest yeah, but violence?!?crazy, and as I said, I'm against it 100%.

And I know the cause to not reveal the picture is stupid, but the action is not. I mean if they would've said it was out of respect to muslims and islam I'd be more than happy, but afraid from violence and terrorist attacks?? I'ld like to be respected not a threat

 

[Spencerr]

Great episodes. Two thumbs up.

 

[FlameOfCallandor]

Dude who cares if a nation of people are offended. People in the middle east dont mind burning our flag every day of the week.

They need to grow up and ignore it if they dont like it. Guess what, when they burn our flag I dont go blow shit up.

 

[whytemyke]

I won't comment on you saying he is a false prophet because that's your own belief\opinion and I respect it.

I'm just going to say this. Rules doesn't apply to those who don't follow the religion,true. But atleast give some respect to those who believe in it. Offending a prophet is like offending a nation of people, and I don't see why anyone would like do that just for a 2 seconds laugh?

So it's not ok for us to expect people across the world to respect our rights, but it's perfectly acceptable for people of the world to tell us where our rights stop? Fuck that.

Like I said... the idea that this is a battle that was won through threat of violence is horrible. People don't suddenly respect islam out of respect for Muhammed. They feign respect cuz they think they'll die if they don't, and that's nobody's fault but the Muslims that wanted to murder that cartoonist back a few months ago.

 

[The Shadow]

But atleast give some respect to those who believe in it. Offending a prophet is like offending a nation of people, and I don't see why anyone would like do that just for a 2 seconds laugh?

Jesus was an actual character on the show and hosted a TV talk show program. He got shot up and died so that Santa could live. Moses was portrayed as the Master Control Program from Tron and the Jews worshipped him like he was God. Two whole episodes were dedicated to ripping apart Mormons and Scientologists.


Why exactly should Mohammed get special treatment?

 

[FlameOfCallandor]

Jesus was an actual character on the show and hosted a TV talk show program. He got shot up and died so that Santa could live. Moses was portrayed as the Master Control Program from Tron and the Jews worshipped him like he was God. Two whole episodes were dedicated to ripping apart Mormons and Scientologists.


Why exactly should Mohammed get special treatment?

Becuase they'll blow you up if you offend them.

It goes back to the end of the second episode when the Fox Executive had to chose who to listen to and Cartmen pulled a gun out.

 

[The Shadow]

Becuase they'll blow you up if you offend them.

There's really no need for comments like that.

I think my point stands up fine on its own without generalizations.

 

[jGuru]

I edited up.

Another thing, I just represent myself here, because I know that there are some muslims or arabs who doesn't respect the westren nations. But me? heck, I live here!

I think if I didn't like the US, for example, I wouldn't spent every summer in here and continue my studies in here. I totally respect the nation and its people and expect the same from them.

 

[FlameOfCallandor]

There's really no need for comments like that.

I think my point stands up fine on its own without generalizations.

Yea it was pretty harsh, I apoligize. It's just that in the last year, the recent events have really made me cynical.

 

[Tortfeasor]

I fundamentally agree, but I also think that common sense has to be applied. If SP had an episode that used the term "nigger" and other racial slurs left and right, flat out disrespected people of different cultures, and committed all sorts of acts of indecency, I think people would be acting differently. If South Park is so intent on showing Mohammad, then I'm sure there's a way that they can...just not through Comedy Central. I'm not muslim but I understand that depicting Mohammad is sacreligous, and free speech or not, I think it should be respected. No one here, unless they're muslim, can probably really understand how much of infraction showing Mohammad is, jokingly or not. This isn't a case of simply satirizing scientology, or mildly poking fun at some groups of people and Comedy Central knows this. No one is saying that Stone and Parker can't depict Mohammad, they just can't do it on Comedy Central. It's ultimately no different than why stations censor nudity, extremely obscene language, and other examples of free speech.

Sorry, but this is just fucking wrong. Free speech is just that... Free speech. I don't have to respect one fucking word you say, but I do respect your right to say it. Since when did we forget that? What you are calling respect has nothing to do with free speech, it is just political correctness.

 

[Ripclawe]

I edited up.

Another thing, I just represent myself here, because I know that there are some muslims or arabs who doesn't respect the westren nations. But me? heck, I live here!

I think if I didn't like the US, for example, I wouldn't spent every summer in here and continue my studies in here. I totally respect the nation and its people and expect the same from them.

Respect is not given it is earned. It has irritated me for a while hearing the " respect us" line because it really means this is what you better to do or else. Growing up with the one side of the family Muslim and other side Catholic, I respect religions. But given that I grew up in the West where everything can and will be subject to satire and comedy. I do not get worked up over it and that is how it is done over here. You don't like it, protest about it peacfully. The self censorship that has gone on based on possible violent acts only works to make the demands even worse in the future.

 

[jGuru]

Yea it was pretty harsh, I apoligize. It's just that in the last year, the recent events have really made me cynical.

It's alright

I really don't blame you. The image about islam the media have been showing is fucked up. I mean those does NOT represent most of the muslims in the arabian gulf,for example, and I know that for a fact. Those represent themselves and only them. Fuck man, I really hate it when I remember that islam now is being used for politicts purposes.

 

[Amzin]

I liked this episode way more than the first one. Even the end made me laugh a bit because it was so. . . unexpected. (OHHHH!! WE BURNED YOU!!!!)
EDIT: I didn't really feel like they were seriously hating on Family Guy. They alternated enough where it seemed more like just general making fun of rather than full-on ripping. Their comments about FG were pretty dead-on, but still, randomness makes me laugh. /EDIT

As far as the whole other argument is concerned. . . I think I'm odd in that I don't know if I've ever been offended. Grossed out, pissed off, horrified, saddened, stupified, amused, but never offended as far as I know. Maybe it's because I'm not religious? Or because I do believe in total free speech? I don't know. Maybe I just don't understand what offended is.

On respecting other beliefs. . . I do respect other beliefs. I would respect a muslim I just meet walking down the street, because I know the crazyness going on probably isn't the majority view. But I've never seen paradying something as a lack of respect. I make fun of things I respect, even people I respect, all the time, because I think humor is a great thing. I laugh at myself almost everyday, so it's not like I'm just mean or something.

 

[jGuru]

Respect is not given it is earned. It has irritated me for a while hearing the " respect us" line because it really means this is what you better to do or else. Growing up with the one side of the family Muslim and other side Catholic, I respect religions. But given that I grew up in the West where everything can and will be subject to satire and comedy. I do not get worked up over it and that is how it is done over here. You don't like it, protest about it peacfully. The self censorship that has gone on based on possible violent acts only works to make the demands even worse in the future.

What if I say that I agree with you 100%. But how can you earn respect these days as a nation? I mean if I did something good and represent islam in a good way, at that same time there is a guy who is a muslim trying to pole some terrorist attack. You just do what you gotta do as an individual, and hope for the best

 

[levious]

I totally respect the nation and its people and expect the same from them.

This is not a nation/culture of respect. This is a nation of standing the heat.

And any level-headed christian would not be offended in the least at any depiction of Jesus in South Park. Afterall, as Santa said, Jesus died for all of us, so from now on we should remember him on Christmas day.

I really don't blame you. The image about islam the media have been showing is fucked up.

While I know you're trying to be understanding, you really shouldn't even concede that much. People should be smarter than that and not let themselves be swept up in fear. I say fuck anyone who would generalize about a culture because of the actions of a few. I'm sure we've all received an email forward at some point since 9/11 trying to convince us that the only people who pose a threat to our safety are young muslim males. Humans are capable of horrible things... it's odd that some people only remember the horrific acts of muslims sometimes.

 

[drohne]

i don't really watch south park, but anything that makes cnn's website write the words "Jesus Christ defecating on President Bush and the American flag" is great on many, many levels. and family guy isn't funny. seriously.

 

[Phoenix]

Sorry, but this is just fucking wrong. Free speech is just that... Free speech. I don't have to respect one fucking word you say, but I do respect your right to say it. Since when did we forget that? What you are calling respect has nothing to do with free speech, it is just political correctness.

No, he was correct is calling it respect - probably should have thrown in tolerance as well. Free speech means you can say whatever you want, respect and tolerance means you wouldn't go out of your way JUST to offend someone. South Park in many respects just wants to say whatever because they feel they should be able to, and then pout and whine when people decide to take their ball and go home.

 

[pinkatrophe]

Jesus was an actual character on the show and hosted a TV talk show program. He got shot up and died so that Santa could live. Moses was portrayed as the Master Control Program from Tron and the Jews worshipped him like he was God. Two whole episodes were dedicated to ripping apart Mormons and Scientologists.


Why exactly should Mohammed get special treatment?

Becacuse depictions of Jesus, Moses, and other biblical figures AREN'T sacreligious. We've been depicting them for centuries and it's no different now. As someone from a western society where religious depictions are the norm, it's hard for many people to understand why depicting certain figures just isn't cool, jokingly or not, but that's just how it is. SP's creators could make fun of Islam if they want, and given how creative they are, they should be able to do it without depicting Mohammad. This isn't an issue of simply making fun of a group of people, it's about showing something that can catalyze not just anger, but violence, in the world. SP is no better than Family Guy which they mock for simply trying to garner ratings and controversy by wanting to show Mohammad. They already made fun of the hypocrisy of the idolatrist mentality so why then go ahead and pour salt in an open wound which wouldn't add ANY comedic value to the show and just serve to say "Hey, fuck you, we're doing this!" as an attempt to gain criticism and controversy.

Sorry, but this is just fucking wrong. Free speech is just that... Free speech. I don't have to respect one fucking word you say, but I do respect your right to say it. Since when did we forget that? What you are calling respect has nothing to do with free speech, it is just political correctness.

Hey look man, do whatever the fuck you want. Go into the ghetto and start calling everyone you see a nigger. Walk out into the middle of the street with a megaphone and start calling Jewish people miserly, greedy bastards. Go into a latin american country and call people wet backs and lazy, ignorant, pieces of filth. You can do this, but why would you? If you had any common sense and any respect for all of these people, why would you? Everyone here is acting like Comedy Central taped the South Park creator's mouths shut and that's just bullshit. If they want to show mohammad, they can. They can publish a cartoon and distribute it around the nation, create flyers and drop them around the nation, come out with a film on it, etc. Ultimately, this is comedy central's ass if they show this depiction and they have every right, as being the people who are making the creator's rich in the first place, to decide what to show and what not to show. No one is supressing their freedom of speech in life, only on comedy central. The whole 'freedom of speech' argument is so fucking hypocritical and gets tossed around so much as race cards do. We get pissed off because CC, which has a business to run, doesn't want to spark violence yet we get pissed off when christian fundamentalists go around bashing homosexuals for their way of life? Where does the whole 'freedom of speech' argument apply when that occurs? Oh yeah, it doesn't, because now there are rules which I and many of you agree with that ban that sort of talk in the workplace and can result in incarceration as a hate crime in many parts of the world. Does anyone bitch about that? No. But when it comes to South Park being censored from showing a figure so important to millions of people, jeez, well that's just not fair, right?

If you want to start comparing this with christianity, then start rallying for millions of christians to start getting upset enough at depictions of Christ to cause significant violence and then maybe you won't have to worry about seeing Christ defecating as well. But you'll have to disregard centuries of christian art and imagery first.

 

[shoplifter]

Becacuse depictions of Jesus, Moses, and other biblical figures AREN'T sacreligious. We've been depicting them for centuries and it's no different now. As someone from a western society where religious depictions are the norm, it's hard for many people to understand why depicting certain figures just isn't cool, jokingly or not, but that's just how it is.

Then I'd point you to the episode where they depicted God himself. Last time I checked, that wasn't cool either, but it was done.

 

[pinkatrophe]

Then I'd point you to the episode where they depicted God himself. Last time I checked, that wasn't cool either, but it was done.

God has been depicted many times on Family Guy as well as in the Sistine chapel. He's also been depicted as a bird, or a hand reaching down from above in numerous paintings throughout history. I'd hardly call it sacreligious in today's society, just against the norm. All of these comparisons don't really matter because these depictions haven't prompted notable violence as a result. When depicting certain Christian figures does provoke such hostility, then we can re-assess the double standard that exists.

 

[levious]

God has been depicted many times on Family Guy as well as in the Sistine chapel.

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

what's your point?

 

[whytemyke]

God has been depicted many times on Family Guy as well as in the Sistine chapel. He's also been depicted as a bird, or a hand reaching down from above in numerous paintings throughout history. I'd hardly call it sacreligious in today's society, just against the norm. All of these comparisons don't really matter because these depictions haven't prompted notable violence as a result. When depicting certain Christian figures does provoke such hostility, then we can re-assess the double standard that exists.

You're still saying here conceding that people shouldn't show this stuff, not out of respect but out of fear. The fact is that this is the same as appeasement. Turn your back on something today out of fear and you'll lose something tomorrow, too. I'd much rather have had Comedy Central show the image and force muslims to peacefully protest what they did to the point that CC had to issue an apology. But the way you're describing it, they're not avoiding Mohammed out of respect-- they're doing it out of fear, and that's just wrong.

Anyways, hows about a history lesson? Showing pictures of God used to be considered idolatry throughout Christianity, and generally speaking it's only considered idolatry now by eastern Orthodox churches. This image didn't change until people forced the issue during the enlightenment, and then people started to actually cast a critical eye toward the ires of religion. Nothing like this type of "revolution" has yet to occur in the muslim world because the people at the center of the world can murder anyone who thinks differently about religion. This pisses me off, personally, on a number of levels because most Americans would have been seriously put off if Louis XIV started going through and murdering everyone he could who had a different understanding of religion than he did. Yet Americans turn the other cheek when such actions take place in the Middle East because, "It's just their religion."

NO, it's not. It's their bastardization of that religion. Show me somewhere in the Qu'ran or the Ha'adiths where Muhammed says "God said don't draw images of me n00b lol." He never did-- the very idea of it was instituted by the second caliphate into Shar'ia which gives it all the Religious legitimacy as the slave trade. The problem herein is that this became law comparable to the Mishnah in Rabbinnic traditions... ordained by scholars unto men under the veil of religiosity, with all the holy timerity as, once again, the slave trade.

Simply speaking, I don't recognize this issue as a religious one so much as a cultural one. A culture has been built around this idea so much to the point that the idea has become interwoven to the culture so much that it's considered religious when in fact it's legislative in nature. Thus my entire problem stems from that-- we're prohibiting the evolution of a culture because anyone that now casts a critical eye towards the tenets upon which it's founded is to be turned away. It starts with Muhammed imagery, but what happens when someone wants to satirize a stampede at Mecca or the poverty of Medina? What happens when, upon seeing those images, hundreds of thousands of people in those countries riot and start killing westerners? Will we acquiesce then because of the fear that it invokes?

Americans are pussies.

 

[pinkatrophe]

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

what's your point?

*bangs head on wall*


Jesus, my point is that it doesn't spark violence and cause international controversy when depictions of God occur.

You're still saying here conceding that people shouldn't show this stuff, not out of respect but out of fear. The fact is that this is the same as appeasement. Turn your back on something today out of fear and you'll lose something tomorrow, too. I'd much rather have had Comedy Central show the image and force muslims to peacefully protest what they did to the point that CC had to issue an apology. But the way you're describing it, they're not avoiding Mohammed out of respect-- they're doing it out of fear, and that's just wrong.

Anyways, hows about a history lesson? Showing pictures of God used to be considered idolatry throughout Christianity, and generally speaking it's only considered idolatry now by eastern Orthodox churches. This image didn't change until people forced the issue during the enlightenment, and then people started to actually cast a critical eye toward the ires of religion. Nothing like this type of "revolution" has yet to occur in the muslim world because the people at the center of the world can murder anyone who thinks differently about religion. This pisses me off, personally, on a number of levels because most Americans would have been seriously put off if Louis XIV started going through and murdering everyone he could who had a different understanding of religion than he did. Yet Americans turn the other cheek when such actions take place in the Middle East because, "It's just their religion."

NO, it's not. It's their bastardization of that religion. Show me somewhere in the Qu'ran or the Ha'adiths where Muhammed says "God said don't draw images of me n00b lol." He never did-- the very idea of it was instituted by the second caliphate into Shar'ia which gives it all the Religious legitimacy as the slave trade. The problem herein is that this became law comparable to the Mishnah in Rabbinnic traditions... ordained by scholars unto men under the veil of religiosity, with all the holy timerity as, once again, the slave trade.

Simply speaking, I don't recognize this issue as a religious one so much as a cultural one. A culture has been built around this idea so much to the point that the idea has become interwoven to the culture so much that it's considered religious when in fact it's legislative in nature. Thus my entire problem stems from that-- we're prohibiting the evolution of a culture because anyone that now casts a critical eye towards the tenets upon which it's founded is to be turned away. It starts with Muhammed imagery, but what happens when someone wants to satirize a stampede at Mecca or the poverty of Medina? What happens when, upon seeing those images, hundreds of thousands of people in those countries riot and start killing westerners? Will we acquiesce then because of the fear that it invokes?

Americans are pussies.

I agree with you in many ways, but you're still treating the history of Christian idolatry and the abandonment of this precent to what occurred on comedy central as if it's a 1 to 1 equation which it is not. Depictions of figures of Christianity gradually became accepted because people wanted ways to venerate these figures and they realized that by using visual symbolism, a greater amount of people would be able to relate to these images instead of just having concepts and scriptures to use. I don't know the reason why idolatry exists in the muslim world (perhaps one of the previoius posters who said he was Muslim does) but the reason it existed in christianity was out of fear that pagans, who didn't know any better, would venerate these physical figures instead of understanding that they're just symbols...it wasn't because of some fundamental disagreement about religious figures being too Holy to be manifested into physical forms. The depictions of Christ and other figures were sparked by Christians for this reason and not by another culture which, ultimately didn't give a shit about the religion and simply wanted to depict Christ in order to gain controversy and piss an entire group of people off.

I agree that muslim idolatry is a double standard, but so are many things in life. It's the responsibility of Muslims to change this precedent and our responsibility to question, peacefully, why such a precedent exists. It is not our right to go against their practices just because we want to upset them and infringe our beliefs onto them.

I agree that comedy central didn't show the image primarily because of the potential ramifications, but as someone who doesn't have a multi million dollar empire to use, I still wouldn't depict Mohammad in a public environment out of respect. If a group of people find it disrespectful to do so, then I won't. It's no different than why I don't use racial slurs or do other things to offend people. If you want to end the rule that exists about Mohammad depictions, then establish support and civically challenge these concepts and challenge other Muslims to do the same. Don't simply go against it because you believe your beliefs of on imagery and religious depictions should apply to the entire world. Different cultures have different rules, and I plan to respect those even if I disagree with them. Comedy Central did the same and now they're getting chastized for it which doesn't make any sense eto me.

 

[levious]

*bangs head on wall*


Jesus, my point is that it doesn't spark violence and cause international controversy when depictions of God occur.

That's a lousy point, go buy some sand and find a shovel buddy.

 

[pinkatrophe]

That's a lousy point, go buy some sand and find a shovel buddy.

oooh, burrrrrn. I guess we can see the extent of South Park's education in your response, right?

Unless you're doing something to combat the existence of idolatry in islamic nations, do me a favor and exercise your right to be quiet unless you have an actual argument to make.

 

[shoplifter]

Jesus, my point is that it doesn't spark violence and cause international controversy when depictions of God occur.

In other words, Jesus shitting on the president is fine because Christians don't get all pissy and make threats of violence.

I guess we probably should shut down those pesky abortion clinics though. After all, they could get firebombed!

 

[levious]

like you've made an actual argument? Everything you've said amounts to actions or inaction driven by fear. It's your right to live that way but don't tell others to do so as well.

I have a BA in theology and anthropology, my views have been what they are for years. I'm all for political correctness when it involves discouraging hateful acts and/or words, but not something arbitrary like a mere image or depiction.

 

[pinkatrophe]

In other words, Jesus shitting on the president is fine because Christians don't get all pissy and make threats of violence.

I guess we probably should shut down those pesky abortion clinics though, after all, they could get firebombed!

Your analogies really suck, man.

Jesus shitting on the president is fine because the entire Christian community hasn't stood up to condemn it. People may complain about it but it's often times only in passing and obviously doesn't strike a chord deep enough to get them to do anything more.

And yes, because obviously abortion clinics broadcast their abortions over the airwaves purely in order to offend those that disagree with their practices.

like you've made an actual argument? Everything you've said amounts to actions driven by fear. It's your right to live that way but don't tell others to do so as well.

I have a BA in theology and anthropology, my views have been what they are for years. I'm all for political correctness when it involves discouraging hateful acts and/or words, but not something arbitrary like a mere image or depiction.

I have made an argument, that the abandonment of christian idolatry is not directly comparable to the existance of muslim idolatry, that comedy central had a right not to depict it as a business, that Stone and Parker can still express their freedom of speech elsewhere, and that the ramifications of showing an image purely to cause controversy doesn't outweigh disrespecting entire groups of people to that extent.

It ultimately comes down to respect for me. I do unto others what I'd like them to do unto me. If someone finds something offensive, I'll try not to say it, do it, or otherwise unless it directly contradicts a fundamental part of myself. We all supress freedom of speech in particular arenas because we have respect for one another but oviously some people believe that muslims shouldn't fall into this circle of respect.

Do whatever the fuck you want, man. The fact is that I still disagree with you and you disagree with me. Let's leave it at that. I don't want to get banned over this shit which I feel like I will if I keep bothering to argue with you.

 

[shoplifter]

Your analogies really suck, man.

Jesus shitting on the president is fine because the entire Christian community hasn't stood up to condemn it. People may complain about it but it's often times only in passing and obviously doesn't strike a chord deep enough to get them to do anything more.

And yes, because obviously abortion clinics broadcast their abortions over the airwaves purely in order to offend those that disagree with their practices.

....

 

[pinkatrophe]

....

If you're going to use an abortion clinic analogy then you may as well use the existance of corporate buildings as inciting hatred for those who favor a socialist nation, the offense of butcher shops to those that are vegan, etc.

I still stand by the fact that it was a bad analogy.

 

[levious]

It ultimately comes down to respect for me. I do unto others what I'd like them to do unto me. If someone finds something offensive, I'll try not to say it, do it, or otherwise unless it directly contradicts a fundamental part of myself.

that sounds like nothing more than "I do what I'm told no matter what." Respect and ultimate compliance with someone's wishes no matter how arbitrary are very different.

We all supress freedom of speech in particular arenas because we have respect for one another but oviously some people believe that muslims shouldn't fall into this circle of respect.

I've ended friendships simply because people have suggested to me that there would be nothing wrong with the profiling of muslims in order to combat terrorism. Don't imply I don't respect a culture.

Calling a black person a nigger and creating an image of Mohammed are very different acts. Not saying you're trying to equate them, just that there's no reason to say they don't fall into this circle of respect.

I don't want to get banned over this shit which I feel like I will if I keep bothering to argue with you.

you may be upset, but there'd be no reason to ban you. I'm not going to hate you because of this, I just can't understand your reasoning. This thread isn't serious business like E3 impressions!

 

[APF]

No, he was correct is calling it respect - probably should have thrown in tolerance as well. Free speech means you can say whatever you want, respect and tolerance means you wouldn't go out of your way JUST to offend someone. South Park in many respects just wants to say whatever because they feel they should be able to, and then pout and whine when people decide to take their ball and go home.

They wanted to show Muhammad handing "Family Guy" a helmet.

 

[jGuru]

While I know you're trying to be understanding, you really shouldn't even concede that much. People should be smarter than that and not let themselves be swept up in fear. I say fuck anyone who would generalize about a culture because of the actions of a few. I'm sure we've all received an email forward at some point since 9/11 trying to convince us that the only people who pose a threat to our safety are young muslim males. Humans are capable of horrible things... it's odd that some people only remember the horrific acts of muslims sometimes.

Yes, exactly. But you know that there are still some people who think that way. However, for me, I try to represent islam in a good way (which is the RIGHT way) so those kind of people hopefuly change to the better.

 

[pinkatrophe]

that sounds like nothing more than "I do what I'm told no matter what." Respect and ultimate compliance with someone's wishes no matter how arbitrary are very different.

I guess that's your call and your perception. I wouldn't silence my view that idolatry in islamic society disagrees with my beliefs or that I don't particularly agree with it. I wouldn't supress my views on various races or cultures so long as I believed they were justified. But I would supress saying something that I didn't know was a racial slur until I was told or showing something that I didn't know was offensive until it was shown unless I was doing such things in order to make a larger point, and even then I'd avoid it if I could. I'm not worried about stepping on toes, but I do disagree with doing things that violate people to an extreme unless I think it's warranted, which I just didn't find a depiction of Mohammad in SP to be. I feel that they made their point, and could continue having an impact on the issue without resorting to show this image. The minute you abdicate your role as a respectful protestor, people don't listen to what you say anymore.

I've ended friendships simply because people have suggested to me that there would be nothing wrong with the profiling of muslims in order to combat terrorism. Don't imply I don't respect a culture.

I didn't mean to imply that if that's how it came across. I think we just approach this topic differently.

Calling a black person a nigger and creating an image of Mohammed are very different acts. Not saying you're trying to equate them, just that there's no reason to say they don't fall into this circle of respect.

I don't mean to equate them other than to say that I imagine that they are both immensly offensive to both groups. I'm black and can say how offensive 'nigger' is to me, but I'm not muslim and can't say how offensive mohammad depictions are to me. But what I've gathered through reading the news is that it's just as offensive to many muslims as using 'nigger' is to blacks which is why I'd rather participate in neither.

you may be upset, but there'd be no reason to ban you. I'm not going to hate you because of this, I just can't understand your reasoning. This thread isn't serious business like E3 impressions!

Heh, yeah man. I really don't like getting into arguments but I always seem to get swept up in them. It's not a big deal so long as people argue civically (which i'm guilty of violating at times).