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[Skittzo0413]

Did you seriously use 8GB SD cards with shitty bandwidth to make a point? For cartridges to have an advantage against installing from a disc onto an HDD like PS4/XB1 on a CONSOLE like the NX, you'd need both higher density and higher speeds than that. And that's REALLY expensive.

No one is saying it will be faster than PS4/XB1 installs, just faster than BRD speed read which is 100% the case even with 3DS 8GB cards.

And again, my point isn't about the size, it's about the fact that 8GB cards are much more expensive to manufacture than 50GB BRDs, yet retail for $20 less.

This proves conclusively that manufacturing cost of the media is not a major factor in MSRP as people seem to be thinking. That's all I'm saying.

Current gen consoles don't read from disc to run games. They're all installed to internal storage, which is much faster than all of those.

The major argument people are making here is that cards will not require those installs at all since they are MUCH faster than disc read speeds, meaning you won't need 1TB hard drives. It might be a bit slower than installs, but it's much faster than disc reading.

 

[Alienous]

I can't see them separating the versions for handheld and console to different media.

If they share the same games, but those games are sold individually, that would make the case of "buy the handheld or the console, but not both", whereas if both consoles accept the same physical version of a game then by selling someone on either the console or the handheld their growing library could do the job of selling them on the other.

 

[RootCause]

SD card transfer speed is worst than DVD/BD ? Whatever the SD format, SDHC,SDXC, etc, I don't think so...

Well, games actually play from the Hdd in the case of ps4/Xbox.
The better question, how does SDHC and SDXC compare to the Hdd in those systems. 5400/7200rpm.

 

[stan423321]

you know what would be cool, if ninny made an adapter that allowed you to plug in multiple copies of the same game for faster loading. this would open a great new market of secondary game purchases

 

[Anth0ny]

can someone specify why this is bad from a third party perspective so I can yell at nintendo for not being third party friendly

 

[randomengine]

• If Nintendo wants a shared library with the handheld, then they kinda have to go with cartridges.
• Cartridges have caught up to discs in terms of how much data they can store within a reasonable price range.
• Tying back into the first bullet point, Nintendo saves money by only having to print one SKU for a game rather than two.
• While on the subject of saving money, Nintendo can cut down on costs for both manufacturing & potential repair costs by doing away with an optical disc drive. Said saved costs can instead be diverted to upgrading the specs of the NX Console or just lowering the NX Console's price tag.

Don't forget that Nintendo will get discounts with scale. Buying more more will bring down the increased cost to manufacture the cartridges over discs.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I wonder if the SCD will play a part in this or it's just an extra and won't matter if the NX uses discs or cartridges

 

[10k]

can someone specify why this is bad from a third party perspective so I can yell at nintendo for not being third party friendly

Stinkles gave a pretty damning post against it. (Frank O'Connor of 343i). I'll find it.


Edit: found it.

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=207909368

 

[massoluk]

Well, games actually play from the Hdd in the case of ps4/Xbox.
The better question, how does SDHC and SDXC compare to the Hdd in those systems. 5400/7200rpm.

One of the arguments we're making is that we won't have to resort to installing shit on HDD to have respectable performance here.

 

[stan423321]

I wonder if the SCD will play a part in this or it's just an extra and won't matter if the NX uses discs or cartridges

I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant (...though, what did you?), but if NX uses cartridges on console I doubt it will get equivalent of Sega CD.

 

[RootCause]

One of the argument we're making is such that we won't have to resort to installing shit on HDD to have respectable performance here.

The performance from the cards would still fall short vs the Hdd. So how is that an advantage. Especially when it takes little to no time to start playing in the case of the ps4.

 

[Bluth54]

No one is saying it will be faster than PS4/XB1 installs, just faster than BRD speed read which is 100% the case even with 3DS 8GB cards.

And again, my point isn't about the size, it's about the fact that 8GB cards are much more expensive to manufacture than 50GB BRDs, yet retail for $20 less.

This proves conclusively that manufacturing cost of the media is not a major factor in MSRP as people seem to be thinking. That's all I'm saying.

Portable games cost less since there's a long standing expectation from consumers that they should cost less then console games, as well as typically having much smaller development budgets then console games. I'm sure publishers would love to charge more for portable games to make up the extra cost of the media if they thought they could get away with it.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

Cartridges make the most sense if the home console and handheld share the exact same physical copy of the game.

 

[The Artisan]

This is actually good news in the long run, since 1) it hasn't got to be contaminated with Cinavia, 2) very few people buy Blu-rays anyway compared to DVDs at their golden years, 3) no one stops third party devs from releasing a XBMC clone on it.

Note that Wii U got a lot of streaming channels apps, and even old Wii got some.

Granted, for those of us liking owning the movies as opposed to renting them there aren't any major online stors that I'm aware of, but the price of an average Blu-ray player is completely acceptable if you really have none.

yeah I guess. i mean i guess it's one move towards going all digital with media (i know this thread is about cartridges but it's just for games - I just mean physical media in general).

but honestly, i don't know how lack of dvd support benefited the gamecube or lack of blu ray support for wii and wii u.

 

[rokkerkory]

Whoa is it the 90s again?

Can't escape the 90s.

 

[MacTag]

Current gen consoles don't read from disc to run games. They're all installed to internal storage, which is much faster than all of those.

Depends on the type of internal storage and the specific drive. DS games had an access time of 150ns which compares very favorably to even SSDs and blows away your average HDD. That transfer rate increases as storage increases though and larger DS games (128MB+) were said to take up to 25% longer than smaller sizes which is why we started seeing load times with games like Final Fantasy III.

 

[The Artisan]

Why would they bother?

the same reason mS bothered to put blu ray in the xbone?

Everything is about streaming now, especially as channels and content providers start their own services.

no it isn't. if that were true then the development of 4K blu ray wouldn't be a thing.

I don't think we will ever see à Nintendo console that play dvd or blu-ray. Personally i don't care.

i don't personally care that much either for different reasons, but i'm just saying i don't think it's a bad idea.

 

[TimeEffect]

Ill believe it.

 

[FireBeaver]

Man, the NX is really gonna blow, huh?

Spoiler

sorry

 

[Z3M0G]

Please have 3-5 slots
Please have 3-5 slots
Please have 3-5 slots

 

[Pokemaniac]

Do people not realise that optical drives are only used once to install the game to hard drive. All this talk of quiet and moving parts does not apply when playing games.

Many third party games are pressed on disk and have huge day 1 patches, 15 GB is not unheard of. For many games half of the data is got after you have installed the optical disk, not counting all the DLC and stuff. The amount of Destiny 50 GB updates I have had is not even funny. So Nintendo would need a large Hard drive anyway if they are serious about third party.

Anyway, I think there is a market for a really powerful portable.....

HDDs are still moving parts. They're not as loud as an optical drive, but they carry the general disadvantages that moving parts imply.

How much data can they store on a "next gen" NX console cartridge if such a thing can exist?

Extrapolating from DS and 3DS sizes, the max size would end up around 64GB or 128GB.

Is it viable to use a re-writable form of cartridge? Perhaps to store game updates and dlc in the cartridge itself and eliminate the need for a large hd to be shipped with every console. Just an idea.

You can do it, but that's a can of worms I don't think Nintendo wants to open.

 

[manueldelalas]

The performance from the cards would still fall short vs the Hdd. So how is that an advantage. Especially when it takes little to no time to start playing in the case of the ps4.

You don't have to install the game; pretty huge advantage right there.

One of the reasons why Sony and MSFT are loosing customers to PC at a fast rate is that there are really no advantages other than a few exclusives and a cheaper entry price of owning a console anymore. Games load faster, look prettier, are cheaper, have free online, etc etc.

Being able to buy or rent a cart and playing straight from it without problem is a huge advantage, especially for a more mainstream market.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

SD card-like thingies are not cartridges.

Bring back N64 cartridges, the best of all time.

 

[godofcookery]

so it's going to have a USB based optical drive that allows backwards compatibility that is only sold through the Nintendo store and they won't make any of?

 

[exmachina64]

The performance from the cards would still fall short vs the Hdd. So how is that an advantage. Especially when it takes little to no time to start playing in the case of the ps4.

Because Nintendo isn't going to give you an HDD.

 

[-Horizon-]

Game cards would be pretty cool.

 

[capitalCORN]

You guys are sure in a hurry to pay even more for games...

 

[Neuromancer]

Stinkles gave a pretty damning post against it. (Frank O'Connor of 343i). I'll find it.


Edit: found it.

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=207909368

Vita cards, 3DS cards, and high capacity SD and micro SD cards are still being made on the daily and seem to be doing ok. Vita games are even being made in small batches, like Limited Run Games. I suspect Nintendo could have processes in place for a smooth developer/publisher experience after all these years of experience. Stinkles is just speculating like everyone else.

 

[Vanillalite]

Well, games actually play from the Hdd in the case of ps4/Xbox.
The better question, how does SDHC and SDXC compare to the Hdd in those systems. 5400/7200rpm.

http://www.notebookreview.com/news/sdhc-cards-vs-hard-drive-vs-ssd/

Conclusion

In the end, SDHC cards are a good option for people looking for cheap storage, but they aren’t the best solution as primary drives. On one hand SDHC cards have extremely fast access times that even rival expensive SSD storage drives. On the other hand, data transfer (read/write) times are quite slow … even by slow hard drive standards.

The bottom line is that using a fast class 6 card like the 16GB A-DATA SDHC card in your laptops’s built-in card reader can make an excellent second storage drive, but it isn’t a great idea as a primary storage drive unless you don’t have any other options.

Pros:

SDHC cards offer cheap storage without the need to open up your laptop
Removable storage so you can take important applications with you
Fast SDHC cards have rapid data access times
Data transfer rates remain mostly constant

Cons:

Your notebook’s built-in card reader might be too slow
Slower SDHC cards aren’t really fast enough
Even a fast SDHC has slower transfer rates than most hard drives
Real SSDs are MUCH faster … and MUCH more expensive

 

[styl3s]

An amount that would be a non-issue if the price was right.

Expect 30-64 GB game cards.

Most games are under 30GB with the occasional hitting 50gb so it shouldn't be a problem.

My guess it will end up being propitiatory to save money IF this is true which i hope it isn't.

 

[tebunker]

Because Nintendo isn't going to give you an HDD.

Yeah odds are it will be a 32gb or 64gb Nand type solution much like a tablet or android set top box.

Mass market consumers seem to be okay with that, but it is little consolation to core gaming people who are accustomed to 60gb installs these days.

So all of this is interesting. It could be very impactful if they get this part right. I just think that if they don't have a huge HD then a lot of folks who are digital only will balk. Regardless of whether we can hook up an external drive. Even though I prefer that solution.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Load times, durability, no moving parts, card art, anti-piracy, smaller retail packaging, built-in special hardware, ETC.

Also, slower battery consumption / lower power draw.

 

[lukeskymac]

No one is saying it will be faster than PS4/XB1 installs, just faster than BRD speed read which is 100% the case even with 3DS 8GB cards.

And again, my point isn't about the size, it's about the fact that 8GB cards are much more expensive to manufacture than 50GB BRDs, yet retail for $20 less.

This proves conclusively that manufacturing cost of the media is not a major factor in MSRP as people seem to be thinking. That's all I'm saying.

The major argument people are making here is that cards will not require those installs at all since they are MUCH faster than disc read speeds, meaning you won't need 1TB hard drives. It might be a bit slower than installs, but it's much faster than disc reading.

Fair enough. I guess Nintendo's way of staying two steps behind the cutting edge will never sit right with me.

 

[RootCause]

Because Nintendo isn't going to give you an HDD.

So removing the Hdd, and offering slower performance than said Hdd(by not having to install) is the big advantage of cartridge over disc? .... Looks like a step back then.

 

[atbigelow]

I'm on #teamcard for sure. But I think there's a lot of problems to sort through.

SDCards definitely have the technology to be multiple times faster than Bluray reading. Nintendo certainly likes their access times.

I personally hate how tiny the DS/3DS game cards are. I'd rather something slightly more robust, but I could understand how a handheld NX would want to minimize the size as much as possible.

I'm personally gonna keep my "mostly digital" purchasing angles, so this affects me less than others.

Nintendo would still need to make sure the cost and production time for pressing an NX card vs an optical disc are as close as possible.

 

[Vanillalite]

I'm still not sold on the patches idea either. You'd need some form of built in storage at least to hold the patch data. Even if you are just gonna overwrite the data on the card nobody patches in a way that it patches while it downloads. It downloads the whole patch file then it installs be it aside, full overwrite, a mix of the two or whatever.

 

[Pokemaniac]

So removing the Hdd, and offering slower performance than said Hdd(by not having to install) is the big advantage of cartridge over disc? .... Looks like a step back then.

Carts actually could end up faster than an HDD, since there'd be no seek times. Also, any storage that would be included in the system would be on an SSD, which would be smaller, but perform better than an HDD.

 

[Boy Wander]

So removing the Hdd, and offering slower performance than said Hdd(by not having to install) is the big advantage of cartridge over disc? .... Looks like a step back then.

How do games with huge day 1 patches or subsequent large updates (ala Splatoon) work when cartridge is the media and there is no HDD?

 

[the androgyne]

I did a double take the other day watching this Miyamoto interview. Towards the end the translator says:

But when/if we decide to .. umm .. when we decide to use different media ...

Now it seems less like a translation error and more like a slip up!

 

[MacTag]

http://www.notebookreview.com/news/sdhc-cards-vs-hard-drive-vs-ssd/

That article's almost a decade old. Today Class 10 cards are bottom rung and we've moved into UHS classification.

 

[Pokemaniac]

I'm still not sold on the patches idea either. You'd need some form of built in storage at least to hold the patch data. Even if you are just gonna overwrite the data on the card nobody patches in a way that it patches while it downloads. It downloads the whole patch file then it installs be it aside, full overwrite, a mix of the two or whatever.

This is why they include 64GB or so of Flash memory, and allow storage to be expanded through USB devices/SD cards.

 

[capitalCORN]

Carts actually could end up faster than an HDD, since there'd be no seek times. Also, any storage that would be included in the system would be on an SSD, which would be smaller, but perform better than an HDD.

Yeah, even adding a tiny ssd would bloat the price significantly.

 

[GasProblem]

Cartridges? Yeah, sure, cool. Feels Nintendo-ish. Make them pretty. Different colors, nice cart art, see through or with glitter because why not.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Yeah, even adding a tiny ssd would bloat the price significantly.

It's what Nintendo does now with the Wii U.

 

[Ovek]

I can't imagine publishers being happy about a increase in manufacturing costs associated with cart based systems. Would be cool though get rid of that big bulky optical drive slimming the console design drastically whilst simultaneously increasing loading speeds, sounds win win to me.

 

[Vanillalite]

That article's almost a decade old. Today Class 10 cards are bottom rung and we've moved into UHS classification.

You still arent getting near HDD speed

 

[capitalCORN]

It's what Nintendo does now with the Wii U.

All I see is flash drives. Unless I am mistaken....

 

[Okami Haundo]

I'm still not sold on the patches idea either. You'd need some form of built in storage at least to hold the patch data. Even if you are just gonna overwrite the data on the card nobody patches in a way that it patches while it downloads. It downloads the whole patch file then it installs be it aside, full overwrite, a mix of the two or whatever.

I know we all want third party support on the NX, but I don't see Nintendo allowing things like a 20 GB patch for a game. I can see them being restrictive enough to put a size limit on how much can be added after-the-fact. Sort of like how Xbox 360 used to have a limit on the max size for XBL Arcade games. Third parties might hate it but it would at least be consistent.

 

[MacTag]

This is why they include 64GB or so of Flash memory, and allow storage to be expanded through USB devices/SD cards.

Yes, NX devices will definitely have internal and expandable storage. How else would the eShop work?

I even think they might move saves for phyical games over too given their talk about cloud saves with their new account system. It's make the game cards cheaper too if they can drop that rewritable memory pool.

 

[Instro]

You still arent getting near HDD speed

Go look on Amazon.