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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
See that's the thing/problem. It would be weird having a new bioshock after how this one ended. Even if the ending could be considered sloppy by some, it's still kind of puts a lid on the entire bioshock universe. They sort of explained why the series is the way it is. Which raises the question:
Is a magic trick still fun if you see how it's done behind the scenes? Is it still special at that point?
Exactly. It would cheapen Infinite's ending if they used the "infinite worlds" explanation as a way to make even more BioShock games but with different settings. There'd be no magic anymore -- people would play through the new settings with little sense of mystery, since they'd chalk up everything to the multiverse rules established in Infinite.
It's better to just start a new franchise, one that might be a spiritual successor to BioShock in the way BioShock was to System Shock, but wiping the slate clean in terms of any notion it's of the same universe (or should I say "multiverse").
I remember some Irrational employee saying on a podcast years ago that the idea was to make a game underwater, in the sky and underground.
shinobi602
Member
Why did Comstock torture Elizabeth again?
Part of it was scientific study. She has fascinating powers that the Columbian scientists presumably want to know about. Another part was power suppression, as they feared her near omnipotent potential we see at the end. The most major part was conditioning. He wanted to make sure she grew up exactly like he wished her to.
Oh right, I remember.
Speaking of System Shock, do you guys think that is a part of the infinite universe of Bioshock?
shinobi602
Member
Alright.
I'm still a littl confused with Comstock being Booker...Comstock is Booker, but then wants himself to pay himself his debt, by taking his own daughter away, and Comstock, who is Booker, comes to Booker from a different reality?
greycolumbus
The success of others absolutely infuriates me.
They could take the "magic trick" to its logical conclusion and put out a Bioshock game that completely deconstructs the format from the onset. Infinite flirted with this but its all mostly very familiar thematically and from a gameplay perspective. If a Bioshock game ended up being more ethereal and with less emphasis on combat I think I could really get behind that, I just wouldn't be too sure what that would look like.
Underground? I speculated that could be a potential setting.
Anything could be. Hell, there's probably a Half-Life 3 universe in there somewhere.
Comstock is an alternate universe Booker who after using the tears too much becomes sterile. He believes he needs a child to continue Columbia's legacy. Comstock, or his representative in the male Lutece, goes and buys up Booker's gambling debt. Booker wasn't originally in debt to Comstock. Comstock bought it to have some leverage to get Booker to sell his daughter. After many years of regret, Booker is brought to the Columbia universe by the Luteces. They feel terrible about screwing with reality and are working through Booker to set things right.
greycolumbus
The success of others absolutely infuriates me.
Finally. A game about mole people.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Bunch of stuff I'll touch on later when I'm not distracted.
"Get the girl, strike away the debt" was a distorted false memory Booker constructed when he was torn through to Comstock's universe. In Booker's universe he probably already did this: he had immense gambling debts, and when approached by Comstock/Luteces was offered the chance to have them paid if he sold them baby Anna. Booker was torn through to Comstock's world, where Anna now resides as a grown woman known as Elizabeth, but because of the dimensional shift finds his earlier memories blurry. "Find the girl, strike away the debt" becomes a mantra of sort, to keep him focused on the objectives the Luteces want him to achieve. And that objective is undoing all the shit with Anna and Comstock/Booker in the first place.
"Get the girl, strike away the debt" was a distorted false memory Booker constructed when he was torn through to Comstock's universe. In Booker's universe he probably already did this: he had immense gambling debts, and when approached by Comstock/Luteces was offered the chance to have them paid if he sold them baby Anna. Booker was torn through to Comstock's world, where Anna now resides as a grown woman known as Elizabeth, but because of the dimensional shift finds his earlier memories blurry. "Find the girl, strike away the debt" becomes a mantra of sort, to keep him focused on the objectives the Luteces want him to achieve. And that objective is undoing all the shit with Anna and Comstock/Booker in the first place.
Underground or Space was literally what I imagined before infinite was revealed. Underground seems the most plausible.
Space seems to be a setting they are saving for a spin off series/next gen.
Combat at that point would need to be refined to a degree...seriously. Story wise Idk if I would be up for it since I literally feel this game was Ken/IG firing from all angles. I can't see them having enough "Juice" for a new game and have it outdo infinite from a storyline perspective unless they do what you mentioned and completely deconstruct it all to it's core.
That's all that is left I guess
Space seems to be a setting they are saving for a spin off series/next gen.
Combat at that point would need to be refined to a degree...seriously. Story wise Idk if I would be up for it since I literally feel this game was Ken/IG firing from all angles. I can't see them having enough "Juice" for a new game and have it outdo infinite from a storyline perspective unless they do what you mentioned and completely deconstruct it all to it's core.
That's all that is left I guess
They've already done space. It's called System Shock!
CambriaRising
Member
Cybershock TM.
What are you even talking about.
Your in a discussion thread, but only post loose based comments, instead of actually disusing in full depth about your stance.
It's quite annoying, because it comes as off "hating the game simply cuz"
shinobi602
Member
What made it feel like a waste to you?
Guys, get Irrational on the horn, Levine is gonna be out of a job.
greycolumbus
The success of others absolutely infuriates me.
Well at the very least, we can expect to see Songbird again once Bioshock 3 rolls out!
Are you even serious?
Rapture was specifically built around being underwater.
Columbia was specifically built around being in the sky.
I mean..come on, what kind of thinking is this?
It's the fact that it puts a wrench in the whole thing of the cycle being broken or not. It kind of throws everything off and it makes it worse that it's not 1912 in the flashback. It's like 1890's.
You seem to be working under the assumption that I am just hard to please whereas I have pretty tirelessly laided out my criticisms in this thread in specific terms. For the sake of others, I won't spam the thread with them again.
However, I do realize that I have probably come off as prickish at times in this discussion but that is because it seriously bums me out to hear people praise this as an amazing narrative. And I mean that literally. It literally depresses me. That probably largely because I have been studying and teaching narrative for nearly two decades, so I am heavily invested in the concept of narrative as a valuable and meaningful form of communication.
Now I realize not all narratives have to be profound, obviously, nor are they all trying to be. I also do not hold games to the same standards of other narrative forms (but I see no theoretical reason why I shouldn't; I just don't because I am a realist). But just to humor you, here are some of my favorite "stories":
Books: Lolita, Absolom! Absolom! The Brothers Karamazov, The Sun Also Rises, All The Pretty Horses, HuckFinn, The Invisible Man, The Glass Bead Game, The Amazing Adventures of Cavilier and Clay, Bleak House, Jude the Obscure, Their Eyes Were Watching God, The Library of Babel, King Lear, Goethe's Faust, The Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man
Films: The Seventh Seal, Wild Strawberries, La Dolce Vita, City of Women, Dr. Strange Love, Eyes Wide Shut, There Will Be Blood, The Royal Tenenbaums, Rififi, Brute Force, Rear Window, Good Fellas, After Hours, The Godfather, Almost Famous, American Beauty, Lincoln, Beasts of the Southern Wild, Annie Hall, Husbands and Wives, The Purple Rose of Cairo.
Games: Portal, Red Dead Redemption, Bioshock, The Witcher, Limbo, Cart Life, Tomb Raider, The Walking Dead, To The Moon, Mass Effect 1, Enslaved, ChronoTrigger, The Stanley Parable, Thirty Flights of Loving, Psychonaughts, Grim Fandango, Ico, Dark Souls, Abe's Oddesey
Have we come up with any proof/theroies that lean more heavily towards one side than the other?
I mean there's the:
1. Infinite Loop Theory-Booker is destined to repeat the same travesties over and over again.
2. Reset Theory-Booker gets to live with Anna happily ever after.
Have we become more swayed to 1 particular theory than the other yet? Or is it basically up for to your own perception so to speak.
I just assumed that was left up to the player. I don't think there is one true answer but personally I would like to think Reset Theory Booker.
even tho part of me feels IG and Ken intended it to be Infinite Loop Booker
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I'm of the opinion that it's a reset Booker and Anna and he's not trapped in an infinite loop. I just need that happy ending after all the suffering these two go through.
Maybe Booker meets Lady Comstock in the reset timeline and it works out for them. I remember her saying something like "Maybe I can save him" in reference to an alt-Booker/Comstock before she blows open the door to Comstock House.
That'd be a lot more interesting than seeing more Columbia stuff. The stakes wouldn't feel very pressing.
Cause he's a dick. And wants to mold her into the image/prophet he wants her to be.
Maybe Booker meets Lady Comstock in the reset timeline and it works out for them. I remember her saying something like "Maybe I can save him" in reference to an alt-Booker/Comstock before she blows open the door to Comstock House.
That'd be a lot more interesting than seeing more Columbia stuff. The stakes wouldn't feel very pressing.
Cause he's a dick. And wants to mold her into the image/prophet he wants her to be.
What do you think that the narrative did well?
If you say nothing, than I'm officially done with this.
But honestly, it seems like you are bitter that people like this..and you are kinda coming off as a snob in the process.
It's like, look how educated I am, look how many books I read, I'm an english major, history major, I know so many things. Obviously I am smarter and more educated about narratives, so thus you guys are wrong and it's so foolish that you guys like this.
I mean, I don't care that you don't like it. I just care that you don't like it, and you are using an elitist approach to this.
Keyser Soze
Member
I did not click with me that the Luteces are both the same person, but from different timelines/universes until just now...
My poor head!
My poor head!
Some dude asked me for narratives I liked. Listed them. I actually avoided the question the first time explicitly to sidestep this kind of anti-intellectual response. But he called me out and asked a second time, so I obliged.
FlutterPuffs
Member
I'd like a Bioshock:Fuck You Ayn Rand Was Right.
The narrative wasn't perfect, but a lot of us enjoyed it and understood it. That makes it amazing in my book.
And of course, there are tons of better works out there... doesn't make this any less special to me.
Regardless.
No doubt your educated and knowledgeable about the medium of stories and writing.
I still feel though, that you truly do feel baffled as to how people could compliment this and feel that your opinion of the game being "a shitty narrative that carries to many themes and shoe horns it all together" is justified based off your background.
Exclamation-One
Member
A city of ember, underground steam punk city would still be a neat location I think:
Steampunk is already this game. Make it a polytheist enviromentalist utopia in the middle of a jungle. Everything is made of wood in a post-punk 80s theme.
That is correct. I do feel that dedicating nearly two decades of my life to professionally analyzing, teaching, and writing about literature enchanced my ability to analyze a given narrative (thematically, structurally, tonally, symbolically, etc.).
I know such ideas are passe in the era of the internet age where everyone has a blog and thinks they can use wikipedia just as well as the next guy, but I still believe in the idea of the professional. I greatly value a number of art and film critics, for example, for the insights they can offer me about a particular works merits and their analysis of its relationship to the greater cultural trends and traditions. That does not mean I blindly agree or trust everything they say, but I hold their assessment in higher regard than the average person. Just like I hold the assessment of my doctor higher than the info I can look up on WebMD (which just always concludes I have cancer anyway) . There is still something to be said for value of an expert opinion.
greycolumbus
The success of others absolutely infuriates me.
Whatever the next city is, it needs pneumatic tubes. Everywhere.
Nemesis_
Member
Are you sure this was about the Songbird? I'm away right now, so I'm away most of my notes / materials about the game so I can't check the log but I swear this was more of something about the Handymen rather than the Songbird.
At least, I don't remember that log explicitly stating it was the Songbird (but I haven't played the game for at least two to three days so I could be wrong / have hazy memory).
toastyToast
Member
I'll buy the season pass if I get to ride the Songbird
That sounds pretty interesting actually.
You know, as a kid, and till today, I always day dreamed of a game that played like the film ANTZ and Bugs Life.
You were an ant, you would it from his perspective, everything would be giant sized like in the "Honey I shrunk the kids" films.
I know this might not sell, or fit thematically to Bioshock (it has to be just humans I'm guessing? A man and a city?)...but playing as a ant, and him walking through these tall blades of grass and finds a an abandoned ant colony, and kind of goes with the whole flow of a bioshock game..
Silly idea I guess, but would definitly be different. And would sell like dog shit.
Nemesis_
Member
The three downloadable contents are the Elizabeth Dress Pack, Booker Top Hat and Monocle Costume Pack and Songbird Armour Pack.
I have a few questions:
What makes Elizabeth so special? Why can she open tears? I understand why Lutece and Lutece can warp around, but what's up with Liz? And how do the Luteces pull Booker through to start the game if they are unable to open tears?
How did Columbia come to be? Or is this one we are letting slide just because? Was it pioneered by Comstock? And if so -- what happened to Booker-Booker that caused such a huge reversal of fortune? I know he's depressed and all that, but Comstock's place implies he started out with a whole lot. Where's Booker's lot?
Are we assuming the tears are simply present in this world, or that they are a result of Lutece's machine?
Why are the Luteces stuck in the loop if they are free to move throughout possibilities? Why don't they just leave Booker's story?
Right before Liz drowns Booker, there is an exchange about "things being set in motion/how do you know how far back to go [to break the chain]." She then almost immediately kills him. Can we assume she has some kind of priveleged knowledge about the precise time to stop things? Or is this more a case of avoiding the paradox of a man killing his past self?
I'm sure there's more to ask, and some of these questions probably have easy answers. But having just finished the game, it's a lot to take in.
What makes Elizabeth so special? Why can she open tears? I understand why Lutece and Lutece can warp around, but what's up with Liz? And how do the Luteces pull Booker through to start the game if they are unable to open tears?
How did Columbia come to be? Or is this one we are letting slide just because? Was it pioneered by Comstock? And if so -- what happened to Booker-Booker that caused such a huge reversal of fortune? I know he's depressed and all that, but Comstock's place implies he started out with a whole lot. Where's Booker's lot?
Are we assuming the tears are simply present in this world, or that they are a result of Lutece's machine?
Why are the Luteces stuck in the loop if they are free to move throughout possibilities? Why don't they just leave Booker's story?
Right before Liz drowns Booker, there is an exchange about "things being set in motion/how do you know how far back to go [to break the chain]." She then almost immediately kills him. Can we assume she has some kind of priveleged knowledge about the precise time to stop things? Or is this more a case of avoiding the paradox of a man killing his past self?
I'm sure there's more to ask, and some of these questions probably have easy answers. But having just finished the game, it's a lot to take in.
Elizabeth dies at the end, or no longer exists. All that exists is Ana.
Marvelous game, that bit left a bit of a sour taste as you get so attached to her character to see her erased kinda sucked.
greycolumbus
The success of others absolutely infuriates me.
I can vouch for him. You find that log next to the Songbird chalkboard sketches. The logs about the handymen referenced the fact that the candidates were always sickly men, if I recall correctly.