Thinking back on the game, it really is amazing how just about everything was properly foreshadowed, and every little mystery gets explained. There weren't any "leaps of logic" or "jumping the shark" moments as some reviews indicated. This is a surprisingly cohesive tale -- and it's not often I come to that conclusion about anything having to do with time-space!
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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
I think what people are saying is that Booker will still have his debts, and still be in a mental state such that he WOULD sell Anna if the opportunity arose. So, something bad could still happen. He just won't be selling Anna to an alternate version of himself from another dimension.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
there is only suppose to be one or a few universes where everything goes right and elizabeth becomes a god. the other liz's were just to demonstrate the comstock universes being destroyed.
And there are an infinite number of god-Elizabeths to drown them.
Basic math here. If there are an infinite number of universes, and in some of them Elizabeth becomes a god, then there are infinite god-Elizabeths.
Apophenia Overload
Member
They're both caricatures of Objectivist ubermen that Ayn Rand could have populated Atlas Shrugged with. They seek out their ideals of perfection that clash with the "parasites" or "mundanes" of normal society, and in their extremism become dangerous. They fit in well with Rapture being a degenerated owner's state full of ideological violence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=rNIDAl53tgk
Ashley Graham from Resident Evil 4 did this.
Any reality that we see, there is an infinite amount of other realities where that happens. When we see the other Booker and Elizabeth walking from lighthouse to lighthouse, that is just one of many Bookers and Elizabeths that made a "perfect" run. In a multiverse story like this, whatever the character does i never the first time it was done and it is never the last time it will be done.
Totally true but I feel like people are making a weird leap in logic from "he would sell elizabeth" to "he will sell elizabeth."
Miles Quaritch
Member
Can't come soon enough.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
if she can kill an infinite number of bookers, she could kill an infinite number of comstocks, but she already said she couldnt and she had to 'smother him in the crib'.
which of the possibilities that i listed does this fall into?
Early footage of the game was also extremely pretentious and I love Mr. Levine but all of what he showed wasn't going to come to fruition, console issue or not.
There are several things from the E3 2011 demo that I'm bummed didn't make the final cut:
1) The puppet shop with the Washington marionettes dangling from the ceiling, and the moment where Liz puts on a Lincoln mask and Booker goes, "Keep looking, Lincoln." Granted, in the final version of the story, Columbia hates Lincoln since he stood up for the blacks and ended slavery, but still, they could've changed the mask to, say, Ben Franklin. At the end of the day, though, I love puppets, and was looking forward to seeing them in the game.
2) The projector showing black-and-white footage against the red banners of the Vox. There was something deliciously eerie about this in the E3 2011 demo, the bits where you'd see Daisy's face projected against the crimson cloth. It was such a creative and iconic sight that I'm surprised they couldn't find a place to use it.
3) The crank-sirens the Vox use to call in zeppelin support. In the E3 2011 demo, they were used after Booker halted the public execution -- another cool bit that was missing from the final game.
1) The puppet shop with the Washington marionettes dangling from the ceiling, and the moment where Liz puts on a Lincoln mask and Booker goes, "Keep looking, Lincoln." Granted, in the final version of the story, Columbia hates Lincoln since he stood up for the blacks and ended slavery, but still, they could've changed the mask to, say, Ben Franklin. At the end of the day, though, I love puppets, and was looking forward to seeing them in the game.
2) The projector showing black-and-white footage against the red banners of the Vox. There was something deliciously eerie about this in the E3 2011 demo, the bits where you'd see Daisy's face projected against the crimson cloth. It was such a creative and iconic sight that I'm surprised they couldn't find a place to use it.
3) The crank-sirens the Vox use to call in zeppelin support. In the E3 2011 demo, they were used after Booker halted the public execution -- another cool bit that was missing from the final game.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
then it's all the same that every liz going back to kill booker out of the infinite set of victory universes would cover the infinite + infinite set of victory and failed universes in which there is a comstock in all of them. if booker is only killed in victory universe baptism rituals comstock still exists in failed attempt universes so this theory would fall apart to.
edit: and comstock is already dead in victory universes so then going back in time is even more pointless.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
You will be surprised...
Yeah. Levine described it as "seeing the city bleed".
I'd prefer that over anime Daisy Fitzroy.
Only thing that took me out of the narrative for a second. They even have the full image on a giant banner.
Actually Booker said he had to smother Comstock in the crib. I think Elizabeth does have the power to kill all Comstocks simultaneously but she can't account for the fact that Booker may not get baptised then but could still get baptised down the road and become Comstock. She agrees with her father that this is really the only way to always take away the probability.
Like I said earlier, Elizabeth is using her god-powers (and probably the god-powers of her infinite amount of god-friends) to lock the baptism scene into place for all of the infinite amount of timelines. Instead of allowing a choice there, she took away the choice and made it so the scene always ended in drowning.
The One Who Knocks
Member
At the bolded, no, to reset everything she has to smother him in the crib. If she wants she can murder every Comstock as he lives but that won't reset the entire timeline, which is what the Luteces have manipulated to occur
As for the second bit:
By the time the choice at the baptism occurs, an infinite amount of branches have already occured which means there are already an infinite amount of Bookers.
EDIT: Sorian's already covered it.
No, this particular one, is one timeline out of an infinite set which invalidates every other set that could take place. There are an infinite amount of Elizabeth's that may lead to her being omnipotent but this is the one where they create the paradoxical loop. One clear example of a universe that occurs is just before the very end. Elizabeth asks our Booker if he's sure and our Booker says yes, but another Booker may make it all the way there and then try to do something else.
EDOT:
Again she doesn't have a problem killing others. She never said the bolded, she said there are a million million other universes (there are an infinite set of an infinite set of an infinite set etc. of universes, but that's an easy way to get the scale across). The problem is that the only way to prevent Comstock EVER EXISTING is to murder him in every timeline BEFORE there is a Comstock. They want to stop him ever existing, they want to remove every timeline in which Comstock can possibly accept, they don't want to kill Comstock in every timeline because that would be pointless, they're trying to reset/prevent everything, not just change it.
Read some posts earlier that validate the train of thought that the player is playing multiple versions of Booker. That is, when you're drowned during the baptism upon entering Colombia and then later drowned by the Songbird. Just that when you wake up, you're a new Booker who wasn't killed at that part.
Is there any more detail or thoughts on this theory?
Is there any more detail or thoughts on this theory?
dark_inferno
Member
"Common people","common people"... "If you dont understand all these references you shouldnt play this game because your not intellectual enough". Yeah no. Just because the references are from good books and history stuff doesnt mean there a good placed. I wouldn't try to kill the pilot on a plane. I wouldn't try to kill the driver in car that is fast as hell. That is some stupid stuff. Like bombing the hell out of a city underwater.
Seems likely to me. The door parts seem to specifically happen after events that probably would've killed you. There's one after songbird throws you through the window as well.
A single god-Elizabeth can't kill an infinite number of Comstocks. An infinite number of god-Elizabeths can. The various versions of Liz need to combine their efforts, so they converge at a point where every possible version of Comstock originated from.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
thinking about this more, how so? minute variations on the victory universe? it's not suggested anywhere that this is how things work. and every victory universe's liz, couldnt cover every victory + defeated universe's booker's death.
I agree - it's only a constant for the scenario the game is built upon because it happened in our Booker's past. There are an infinite number of Bookers that do an infinite number of things after refusing baptism, it's not like he's on a predetermined path or anything. There's even an infinite number of sad Booker/Anna combos where Comstock does not offer anything - I believe this specific universe was chosen because Robert Lutece also resided there, Rosalind's first contact through her research.
Everytime you die without Elizabeth nearby and you walk through the door in your office to respawn, the same deal is happening. A new Booker that didn't die in that spot.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
if you have an infinite number of liz's then you dont have the problem if killing comstock in every universe. she said she couldnt because for every comstock that is killed hes alive in a million million others.
Yeah. Someone earlier noticed that the bell combo at the lighthouse is 122, but when you Letuce twins flip the coin they're on 123 (which is after you've drowned/died upon entrance to Colombia). I wonder if there are any clues after being killed by the songbird that would update the count to 124.
Yes, the projector-on-red-cloth will be missed. One of the most iconic sights from the E3 2011 demo. Irrational Games, if you're reading this: Put that bit of iconography in the DLC! Maybe we could get a Minerva's Den-style side-story following an all-new character during the Vox uprising, and the projector-on-red-cloth could be utilized there. It'd make Daisy ominous again...
Another bit that wasn't in the final game was the ability to call in freight cars to hit enemies suspended in the air. Although I'm not surprised: The chances of lining up enemies -just so,- then suspending them all in the air, then opening a tear to call in freight cargo to run them over is... Unlikely.
I do think they could've included the public execution Booker stopped in the E3 2011 demo, maybe after the Vox turns against you, and that the enemy using the crank-siren to call in zeppelins would've worked -- just dial it down a notch so he calls in small gunboats instead, and it'd be practical. Kind of a way to add pressure: "Oh shit, if I don't stop the guy cranking the siren, he'll call in more enemies!"
Right, because she can't take into account every decision that might lead to a comstock after the baptism occurs. But the baptism is the first place a comstock can be born. Killing every Booker right before that is the onyl way to get rid of every Comstock. We aren't attempting to kill Comstock directly, we are attempting to kill the probability of him ever existing.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
You seem to imply that Vox Populi were in a pretty rational state , even Booker lampshades this...
Neuromancer
Member
I don't think it's a failure of RAM. I think it's a failure of ambition. There are plenty of open world games on current consoles, I don't see any technical reasons why Infinite couldn't have had bigger levels and maybe a hub/spoke structure.
Also it just so happens extremely linear games make their brand of storytelling easier. On the one semi open level towards the end there is a lot of weirdness if you go to the cemetery too soon. Elizabeth doesn't say anything about her mother being buried there even as you're standing right in front of the crypt. It's bizarre and this issue would be compounded if the world was bigger and more open.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
this all falls under the one universe to infinitely many instantly which is ridiculous because it would mean:
-booker creates the multiverse
-it's preposterous that a decision at an arbitrary point in time would suddenly sprawl out into an infinite number of minute variations.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
before we continue i need to know if you're of the mind that there were infinite baptism rejections/acceptances univereses. or just 2 universes for both choices
I'm not disagreeing with your larger point that there's merit to more focused experiences in cases like this, but on the subject of the cemetery in particular, I think it's fine you could reach it earlier. The whole Emporia area was excellent in how you could find many side shops and apartments and travel around it in a loop or, if you didn't care for exploring, just make a beeline for the next objective and then explore the side stuff anyway when the narrative calls for it. I opted to explore everything before hitting the next objective, and I felt really immersed constantly finding new places like the cemetery.
DerZuhälter
Member
Sorry, but that's some mindbending I'm not willing to accept as good writing. It's not a bad game, and I like the idea of controlling an infinite amount of Bookers, but yet still:
The idea of the syphon (what is being syphoned?!), the syphon getting destroyed and releasing all the "power" (were was it even stored), full powered ̶O̶̶l̶̶i̶̶v̶̶i̶̶a̶ Elizabeth fixpointing a single event for the entire multiverse, Comstock being able to see "the right" future although moving/looking in a multiverse space (of course, we are in an infinite number of universes and we just play in the ones in which he hits the jackpot with his prophecies.) ... well maybe a different version of me would be fine with that resolution, but I believe it should have been possible to find a smoother ending for the game.
Math gets funny when you're dealing with infinite sums. Let's say that 2% of Booker/Elizabeth teams have a perfect run and result in god-Elizabeth. 2% of infinity is still infinity.
I have a problem with the coin flip scene. People seem to be interpreting the sandwich board to show how many times Booker has called the coin. However, before you go through the door leading to the coin flip, can't you hear the Luteces calling heads and tails? I would wager that the sandwich board is the record of the coin flip tests they've been performing before your arrival.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
it does but one set of infinity cannot cover 2 sets of inifinity, it's intuitively true.
regardless, liz flat out says she cannot kill a million million comstocks so it doesn't even matter.
The One Who Knocks
Member
No because you're presuming that Booker is the starting point of the branching, this is already false because we know that in some universes Booker isn't born. That means in universes where Booker survives there's the possibility in every branch that Booker will be born. And every one of these branches then branch out further until eventually this infinite set branches out into the infinite sets which have the baptism.
Also, it isn't preposterous because that is what a multiverse is. The Luteces call it the probability space. Every probabilitiy in a probability space is a probability, every minute difference another probability.
EDIT:
The set of natural numbers, an infinite, is a subset of the set of integers, also an infinite, is a subset of the set of rational numbers, itself an infinite, which is a subset of real numbers, itself an infinite. But the set of integers does not contain the subset of real numbers. A demonstratable example of one infinite containing three subset of infinites in which not all sets are equal despite all being infinites. Elizabeth controls the probability space at the end, she can do whatever she wants. She never says she cannot kill a million million Comstocks, you're taking that line out of context,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=F-VJ3j2bPJk#t=306s
She is using it to explain the probability space and 'constants and variables'.
Fuuuuuuuuu
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
after 123 the game cant make any more guesses at the number because it doesn't know how many times you died.
unless you don't think the door sequence to bookers death is another loop.
dark_inferno
Member
2 things came to my mind. We played the "I picked number 77" in the raffle universe right? If we hadnt picked it we would have got a different outcome right? And the last question is. What was the flip a coin thing about?
Edit: Got the Flip a coin thing now. Saw it in the post above mine.
Edit: Got the Flip a coin thing now. Saw it in the post above mine.
Considering the song title it makes it even more crazy and awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST86JM1RPl0
This is gonna be one of those games where you learn/discover something new during every single playthrough.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
ok so there's an infinite number of baptisms then? then how does liz kill an infinite number of bookers when she can't kill a million million comstocks?
(I know this'll be answered before I finish).
1. #77 is a constant. Unless Booker knew what the balls were, he's always going to pick #77. The fact that he knows #77 was predicted for him allows him to be aware that it could be a set-up etc.
2. Each coin flip is a constant. Every time Booker flips the coin it's heads. The Lutece's are checking if it ever changes, which it doesn't. Each flip was done by another Booker.
True, but to be fair they could track something like that within the game's code (though I'd imagine it would be rather difficult and not be noticed). Be more of a head trip if you could go back and look at the chalk board later in the game and see it updated with added marks based on your progress.
You would think so, but infinity x 2 = infinity.
And like I said, one Elizabeth can't kill a million million Comstocks. It's only if all of the Elizabeths focus their powers on a single decision point.
Hah, good catch.
MGS3 kept data of every soldier you killed, and how, up to a point. It's possible, but how would you check it? The next 'coin-flip' would be 123 at max also.
Voice of Reason
Banned
That last drowning scene is supposed to symbolize one amalgamated timeline where an "infinite" amount of Elizabeths drown Booker before Comstock exists.
dark_inferno
Member
So the Luteces build up to the 77 raffle with the coins? Interesting.