I hit A during the credits. Did this skip the post credits scene or do you need to do something special?
Agreed. The drowning happens before the choice is made. This fits better with what she literally tells you, and the thematic message they were trying to end the game with.
However, this makes the post-credits scene not make sense. After reading a lot about this, there's just no good way to reconcile the two, unless the scene is a dream of some sort.
I hit A during the credits and it took me to main menu. Did this skip the post credits scene or do you need to do something special?
The post credits scene occurs because Elizabeth creates a paradox. Because of this paradox, rejecting the baptism becomes a constant, which means Booker can never accept the baptism because if, in even a single universe out of an infinite, Booker accepts the baptism, it means he will have died before the baptism occured. The paradox Elizabeth creates prevents the possibility of Booker ever accepting and thus we see Booker rejecting the baptism. Because he always rejects the baptism, Comstock never exists and can never interfere and the Luteces are never trapped in the probability space. Along this line of though, this goes into the specificities of believing this form of ending more thoroughly. In addition, the timelines present in Post 6046 makes this easier to visualise.
The credits were fun. Nice music. Nice messages from Irrational staff too. Nice behind the sceenes video as well. No idea why you'd skip.
I browsed GAF (mostly this thread) and let it play out.
...it was also the middle of the night, so I had little else to do,
The post credits scene occurs because Elizabeth creates a paradox. Because of this paradox, rejecting the baptism becomes a constant, which means Booker can never accept the baptism because if, in even a single universe out of an infinite, Booker accepts the baptism, it means he will have died before the baptism occured. The paradox Elizabeth creates prevents the possibility of Booker ever accepting and thus we see Booker rejecting the baptism. Because he always rejects the baptism, Comstock never exists and can never interfere and the Luteces are never trapped in the probability space. Along this line of though, this goes into the specificities of believing this form of ending more thoroughly. In addition, the timelines present in Post 6046 makes this easier to visualise.
I was just watching my brother play, and I noticed that one of the lady says "Annabel, is that you?" KEN WAS HINTING!
They specifically say that he's drowned before the choice is made. He never accepts or rejects the baptism because he's not alive to do it. In all universes (where there would have been a potential baptism involved), Booker DeWitt dies at the age of 20-something.
It wasn't really intentional. I have a strange fascination with testing what people decide is the threshold for when to skip stuff. A lot of credits require you to hit start st least. Strange that these are on a hair trigger like just tapping A especially if it skips the thing afterwards as well.The credits were fun. Nice music. Nice messages from Irrational staff too. Nice behind the sceenes video as well. No idea why you'd skip.
I browsed GAF (mostly this thread) and let it play out.
...it was also the middle of the night, so I had little else to do,
They specifically say that he's drowned before the choice is made. He never accepts or rejects the baptism because he's not alive to do it. In all universes (where there would have been a potential baptism involved), Booker DeWitt dies at the age of 20-something.
I'm note sure if it's a joke due to the spelling which may suggest it's satrical in nature but in the event that it's not, when somebody crosses into another universe two things happen, the first is that they remember everything the other version of themselves did up to the point that they cross over. However, memories already exist in these locations. As a result, the memories conflict with one another and lead to both sets of memories becoming corrupted, suppressed, and or erased. Secondly, when one crosses over, to fill in the gaps left from this conflict, memories are created around important events. When somebody tries to remember something from before they crossed over an incredibly powerful cognitive dissonance occurs resulting in physical reactions, because different memories are conflicting with each other.
They specifically say that he's drowned before the choice is made. He never accepts or rejects the baptism because he's not alive to do it. In all universes (where there would have been a potential baptism involved), Booker DeWitt dies at the age of 20-something.
No.I don't understand your logic for the bolded. What makes the accepted timeline special that there is a paradox but the declined timeline not have a paradox? In either case, it is a paradox because he will have died before choosing.
Exactly, that's why the paradox works in creating the constant rejection at the baptism.They specifically say that he's drowned before the choice is made. He never accepts or rejects the baptism because he's not alive to do it. In all universes (where there would have been a potential baptism involved), Booker DeWitt dies at the age of 20-something.
everyone gets my name wrong
Then what was the point of the end credits?
Just to troll?
"The choice" can mean two things though: either the choice to get baptised at all (or not), or more specifically the choice to get baptised. I think it's intentionally ambiguous.
Really? I thought they went back to the moment before baptism, in the timeline where he'd choose to -accept- the baptism. And he did accept baptism -- only this time Elizabeth was there to drown him. So the unbaptised timeline can still persist, no?They specifically say that he's drowned before the choice is made. He never accepts or rejects the baptism because he's not alive to do it. In all universes (where there would have been a potential baptism involved), Booker DeWitt dies at the age of 20-something.
He did horrible things. But with time, the unbaptised Booker came to regret them and wish he'd done differently. It's called the grey area of life. (Which is why a black and white afterlife never made sense, but that's religion for you!)And promptly burns in hell if you believe that sort of thing. I liked the Booker I used in the game, still doesn't erase the fact that he was and is a terrible human being.
everyone gets my name wrongZyklon
Really? I thought they went back to the moment before baptism, in the timeline where he'd choose to -accept- the baptism. And he did accept baptism -- only this time Elizabeth was there to drown him. So the unbaptised timeline can still persist, no?
He did horrible things. But with time, the unbaptised Booker came to regret them and wish he'd done differently. It's called the grey area of life. (Which is why a black and white afterlife never made sense, but that's religion for you!)
I asked it before but why are constants constants and why are variables variables? Why isn't everything a variable?
Might as well just pick a page and start reading Yoshi, like I told someone else earlier today, this thread is just an infinite loop of the same ideas over and over again. That guy said it worked and he started on page 88 (I assume on a 50 page count setting).
There's always a question about the necklace choice.
Always a post wondering about the timeline.
Always confusion about the Luteces.
Might as well just pick a page and start reading Yoshi, like I told someone else earlier today, this thread is just an infinite loop of the same ideas over and over again. That guy said it worked and he started on page 88 (I assume on a 50 page count setting).
I asked it before but why are constants constants and why are variables variables? Why isn't everything a variable?
Really? I thought they went back to the moment before baptism, in the timeline where he'd choose to -accept- the baptism. And he did accept baptism -- only this time Elizabeth was there to drown him. So the unbaptised timeline can still persist, no?
I asked it before but why are constants constants and why are variables variables? Why isn't everything a variable?
Haha, we have closed all paradoxes and now are doomed to repeat this one infinite circuit.
The game heavily implies that the "choice" was made precisely at the moment of baptism, when Booker gets cold feet and decides not to go through with it. But even if this weren't the case, and he "decided" a couple of minutes ago or whatever, it doesn't matter. They drown him before he chooses.
system shock 2What does the difficulty name "1999" refer to? System Shock?
Aww, no controversies?
Here's the thing that's confusing:
We're dealing with two timelines, baptised Booker and unbaptised Booker.
Thing is, in any one timeline, he only made one decision.
Yet timelines for two decisions exist.
So Elizabeth can go and drown Booker and prevent future timelines from happening.
But it wouldn't prevent anything, because if a timeline exists for every -possible- choice, then there would be a timeline where Elizabeth brought Booker to the baptismal font -- and didn't drown him.
Well, that's pretty dumb :lolsystem shock 2
Here's the thing that's confusing:
We're dealing with two timelines, baptised Booker and unbaptised Booker.
Thing is, in any one timeline, he only made one decision.
Yet timelines for two decisions exist.
So Elizabeth can go and drown Booker and prevent future timelines from happening.
But it wouldn't prevent anything, because if a timeline exists for every -possible- choice, then there would be a timeline where Elizabeth brought Booker to the baptismal font -- and didn't drown him.
Here's the thing that's confusing:
We're dealing with two timelines, baptised Booker and unbaptised Booker.
Thing is, in any one timeline, he only made one decision.
Yet timelines for two decisions exist.
So Elizabeth can go and drown Booker and prevent future timelines from happening.
But it wouldn't prevent anything, because if a timeline exists for every -possible- choice, then there would be a timeline where Elizabeth brought Booker to the baptismal font -- and didn't drown him.
Well, that's pretty dumb :lol
I felt like he wasn't all that omnipresent though, just a conversational topic that came up every now and then. While you can interpret that as omnipresence, I didn't feel like it was. Of course, I'd assume Songbird would be searching for Elizabeth constantly instead of just appearing when he's called. Even if there was overheard dialogue from other characters saying "You seen the bird? He flies by every day like he's searching for something". That translates more to his character than "Oh he's a thing to be called"
There are some pretty good controversies but the only one that has weight on both sides for me is Booker dying at each moment we wake up in the office / Were playing the one Booker who makes it all the way through.
Just finished the game, damn that story took some pretty weird turns towards the end. I had to go through this thread and find the post with all the timelines to finally understand what was going on. I have no idea how Ken Levine came up with this crazy story but I loved every second of it.
With an infinite set of possibilities then presumably a variation of Booker dies at every possible point along the journey through Columbia.
So you're essentially saying Elizabeth's actions don't cause timelines where she does something differently.The basic 'premise' behind getting around that arugment is that since our Liz is a Time Lord, she and her incarnations who have reached the same level of tear ability are able to see the potential devastation she can cause, and will thus always choose to prevent such a future from happening due to Comstock taking her from Booker.
That is definitely established what isn't is if Booker 123 is the last Booker to die or if by the time we reach the end were on Booker 129 or more.
Still can't stop thinking about this game. My mind just wanders to Booker and Elizabeth every second it can.
I am starting to think it might be the most impressive story I have ever gone through in a game because like all well thought out and well executed narratives it only gets better the more details you uncover. Playing through the game again and it's just a gold mine of details for you to connect together. It's very impressive what Levine pulled off.
So you're essentially saying Elizabeth's actions don't cause timelines where she does something diferently.
That's kind of a cop-out, imo, a deus ex machina. If she's still human on any level, what she does would create an alternate timeline where she doesn't. Trying to remove herself from existence to negate the whole sequence of events in the first place wouldn't work, for she could never not exist. The whole "was, is, will be" deal. Even if she "is not" or "no longer," she still "was." And so a timeline crops up to accomodate that -- and every possibility for everything she does, and doesn't do.
Which would include bringing Booker to baptism, but NOT killing him... No?
Well we are at least Booker 124 or 125 (depending on if you believe the songbird throwing through the window near the end was also a death), with 124 being songbird drowning you after finding Liz. Then of course you are Booker-XXX depending on how many times you died without Liz around.
Welcome to the party! Cocktail? We have plenty of bucking brono left and our finest bottle of devil's kiss still remains unopen.
My take is, she tried to negate every possible reality where Booker would exist... But because of the problem I outlined in my last couple posts, she failed to truly do so... Which is what I believe the post-credits sequence suggests.If you want to see it as a cop-out then that is fine but I believe that is the implication of her having full control of her power.
Haha yeah I plan to go through the past few pages to see what kinds of discussions are happening. I guess my main question at this point is, are the Luteces the game's main driving force? They were killed by Comstock and got stuck in the timeline, so as revenge they basically found a way to get Booker into Comstock's universe in order to find Elizabeth, destroy the tower to grant Elizabeth timeline omnipotence, and then kill all the Bookers who accepted the baptism?
I absolutely loved how the scene where the Songbird reclaims Elizabeth and she reaches for you while crying mirrors the scene where she's taken through the tear as a baby.
I love so much about this game.