Nice, i'd love to see a screenshot of that.
I found in Lutece's house two pictures on a desk.
1. with Bookers office and it says "His Office"
2. a photo of the lighthouse and it says "His only obstacle"
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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
Nice, i'd love to see a screenshot of that.
I found in Lutece's house two pictures on a desk.
1. with Bookers office and it says "His Office"
2. a photo of the lighthouse and it says "His only obstacle"
ElzarTheBam
Member
This is the part that really has me salivating for more clarification. It presents a fascinating new way of looking at BS1 and 2.
Furthermore, I wonder what the meaning behind Infinite's ending entails for the 'shock' series going forward.
Quoting for the new page.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I think at the time the game takes place, the pair has transcended normality, they appear and disappear from time and place at will, but the scene you see at the end, the flashback, comstock is yelling at lady Lutecs to "close the machine" (if i heard that right), the Lutecs still needed equipment (at that time) Liz can do the same thing of her own free will at any time.
and yes, it's very strongly suggested that those two have seen all this happen many times before, it's just a game of chance for them (the coin flip, and many other "choice" related things they say).
Considering they had fairs, ads and banners displaying the vigors, they were probably there for everyone to use, but most of the "high class" people of Colombia chose not to use them. Though the one's that did use them are the special enemies, like the fireman, the crow guy etc.
Songbird is a machine afterall, at the beginning he simply cracks a bit, but at the end you can very easily assume that the pressure at the bottom of the ocean is enough to crack it apart.
Yep, that's great observation. I wondered at that time why that drawing of Booker looked like the bearded man from the banners all across town.
1. Songbird was just a contraption, a mechanical guardian, or as Liz called it "her warden", designed to keep her safe from outside threats, while also ensuring she doesn't escape the tower.
2. Vigors are plasmid .. or some version of it, plain and simple. They don't go into the science behind "HOW" vigors work. You can assume they were more of the Lutece's working.
3. The handyman was created by the Fink guys, you hear one of the Vox recordings from a woman whose husband had cancer (this is at the beginning of the factory mission), she says that she got an offer from Fink to put her husband in a metal skeleton, and that it's better to have a "handyman than a dead man". That's where the term originates from.
4. This is why I think she has powers in the last page : http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=51531138&postcount=84
Yeah but why are there so many? and all looking the same?
Cancer and bald men.
I'd prefer more variety.
It's a riddle for me why they didn't use those in the final game. I mean they already had the model and shit.
They cut or heavly modified pretty much the whole 15 minutes E3 2011 demo.
1. There's got to be more to it. It just doesn't seem likely of Irrational to just leave it like that.
2. Yeah. I hope they follow up on the hints that stuff in Columbia comes from Rapture. That's a really cool concept.
Superimposer
This is getting weirder all the time
So who had access to tear technology? It seems like loads of people did and yet I thought the whole point was that people were not allowed to know about this because they would work out Comstock was not a prophet.
Obviously because they had a different Columbia in mind back then.
thomasmahler
Member
Has it ever occurred to you that I have been paying attention, but was already so confused by all the bits and pieces of the story that it's simply too much information and too much stuff being thrown at you at one time to properly interpret everything? As you see in this thread, tons of people have tons of questions about the story and aren't really getting it - So yeah, you could try to separate me out as being profoundly dumb or you could agree that the story is insanely complex and convoluted and might just be too much for its own good.
I see this in all artforms. I originally studied traditional sculpture and then worked as an artist for years - The typical amateur mistake of crafting something is to fill it with details before the actual foundation is solid. Detailing out pores and wrinkles doesn't give you anything if the actual anatomy is fundamentally borked. And I think this is true for the story in Bioshock Infinite. There are lots of interesting little details but that doesn't hide the fact that the anatomy of the story, the core foundation is just not really there yet.
Way to bash other people without actually contributing something. Your mother must be proud of you.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Since this is apparently the spoiler thread, I've got some interesting thoughts, but I'll still be careful.
While I won't have a chance to really dig in until this weekend, this is the plot as I understood it from watching the leaked ending and some of the discussion on /v/.
Whole thing will be in spoilers, but I think it sums up one possibility pretty well.
The thing I'm not quite sure on is exactly when the baptism happens in relation to a certain event Anna's birth and eventual sale by Booker. If the baptism is after that event, it does explain the "infinite" in the title because the 'baptism' choice creates an original Comstock, who then goes back in time/space to get Booker B's child, which eventually leads to the same baptism choice for Booker B. Due to the nature of the baptism choice somehow functioning as an axis for universal splitting because of the time travel involved.
But if the baptism is first, the whole thing devolves into a much simpler two universe ordeal, not spanning the multiverse anymore. Also doesn't really make as much sense given what happens in the ending.
Anywho, here's the synopsis.
Again, this is reliant on the birth/sale happening before the baptism, which I wasn't really clear on. If it doesn't, it's all much simpler than the above, obviously.
While I won't have a chance to really dig in until this weekend, this is the plot as I understood it from watching the leaked ending and some of the discussion on /v/.
Whole thing will be in spoilers, but I think it sums up one possibility pretty well.
The thing I'm not quite sure on is exactly when the baptism happens in relation to a certain event Anna's birth and eventual sale by Booker. If the baptism is after that event, it does explain the "infinite" in the title because the 'baptism' choice creates an original Comstock, who then goes back in time/space to get Booker B's child, which eventually leads to the same baptism choice for Booker B. Due to the nature of the baptism choice somehow functioning as an axis for universal splitting because of the time travel involved.
But if the baptism is first, the whole thing devolves into a much simpler two universe ordeal, not spanning the multiverse anymore. Also doesn't really make as much sense given what happens in the ending.
Anywho, here's the synopsis.
Possible(?) plot synopsis from /v/ said:
Again, this is reliant on the birth/sale happening before the baptism, which I wasn't really clear on. If it doesn't, it's all much simpler than the above, obviously.
Where was the scene where Booker takes the guitar and starts playing? if i remember correctly Levine said in an interview that would be in the game. You know where he sings "will the circle be unbroken" with Liz. Or was he just talking about the credits? 
QuantumBro
Banned
In the bar in Shantytown if you go down the stairs in the back you'll find the guitar.Where was the scene where Booker takes the guitar and starts playing? if i remember correctly Levine said in an interview that would be in the game. You know where he sings "will the circle be unbroken" with Liz. Or was he just talking about the credits?
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Not loads of people, just the Lucete's, Comstock and .. Liz herself.
Yeah I was really looking forward to that scene, because it looked so good
I personally believe the baptism takes place BEFORE the whole Anna affair .. because the whole reason Zachary (booker after baptism) is looking for a child of his own is because after raising colombia and experimenting on quantum mechanics with the lucete's, he's become sterile.
The only timeline he has his own child is the one where he doesn't baptize, doesn't turn into zachery, and has a normal marriage, but his wife dies during childbirth and he's left with anna, and a lot of debt from drinking and gambling, forcing him to agree to sell his daughter to someone offering to wipe away all of his debts.
Superimposer
This is getting weirder all the time
Haven't read that yet but the baptism or branching off most definitely occurs before the Booker that refused to be baptised has Anna.
really? i have to try that, thanks.
Superimposer
This is getting weirder all the time
That's what I thought too, but Albert and Jeremiah Fink definitely had them as well. Jeremiah got the idea for handymen and Albert got all that music from the future through tears.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Fink's brother couldn't USE the tears, he could only see some distortion and hear music through it (like you do every now and then). That's really not the same as being able to utilize the tear. Only a few people can actually make tangible use of them.
You can assume that once the Lutece's began their experimentation on space time distortion, it caused a few smaller rifts to open up here and there, some people can see them, or hear them, but not everyone can interact with them.
Superimposer
This is getting weirder all the time
Thank you kindly.
I pointed said scene out to you and explained why her powers were diminished so obviously I contributed to the discussion. Not sure what you are talking about. Also I'm not saying you are dumb but you seem to lack focus while playing. Especially in a series like Bioshock where you certainly have heard that the story is rather complex.
I mean you even said you rushed the second half of the game. How are you even supposed to follow the story if you say you are confused to begin with and then still rush through it? Just to be able to say you finished it? That's not paying attention in my book. Seems you just rushed though it to be able to say you finished it so you could silence the people telling you to finish the game before complaining about stuff that is obviously set to be explained in the end.
User Name Here
Member
wrong thread
Angelus Errare
Banned
I'm sure this has been pointed out to you but
He doesn't get baptized because of his guilt for selling his child. He gets baptized because of the guilt he felt for all the atrocities he committed during war.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Ah, I see.
Well, that makes for a less interesting multiverse theory, since ostensibly, that limits Infinite to two distinct universes that occur infinitely instead of a chain reaction cascade which could only be stopped by going back to its source. Instead, we have (maybe) the same events playing out in more than one 'linked' set of universes.
It basically boils down to the fact that one specific choice determines the state of the multiverse. (though admittedly, since Liz has those dimension-tearing abilities directly because of the nature of the baptism decision, I suppose it makes sense).
Not really 'infinite' anymore, though.
ThreePiMatt
Member
So I guess no one has figured out the results of the bird/cage choice early on in the game? I chose the cage, and I thought maybe it had something to do with the note that old Elizabeth gives Booker, but that turns into the notes to summon the Songbird, so I imagine that was unrelated.
Otherwise, this thread has kind of made sense in regards to why Comstock came back and stole Anna/Elizabeth, but there's kind of a lot about why Booker turned into Comstock. Like, for example:
1)If Booker was baptized to cleanse himself of the sins of the Boxer Rebellion and Wounded Knee, why does he then prop himself up as the hero of those conflicts?
2)How does Comstock know the AD branding would be the False Shepard? The branding wouldn't have been put on until after Booker gave away Anna, so Comstock should never have known about it.
3)And where does Booker's debt comes from? How does giving up your daughter pay the debt, unless the debt is with Comstock in the first place, but how'd he manage that?
4)And how the hell did Booker get into the same universe as Comstock in the first place? Comstock wants a daughter, so he works with Lucete to open the tear to get Anna. So Comstock went into Booker's universe and takes Anna. At what point does Booker now follow them into that universe to get her back?
I guess there's just a lot that happens in between that doesn't get explained. The Handyman was created when wife wants to keep her cancer-stricken husband alive and I assume that's kind of the basis for how the Songbird was created, but I think the actual origin of the Songbird deserved more focus. It just seems lazy for it to be "created to protect her, comes around occasionally, then dies at the end." Who is in there? Why are they in there? Elizabeth starts out loving it, then hating it, then sad when its gone?
But, as is kind of expected in any store dealing with time paradoxes and alternate dimensions there are going to be holes and incongruences. I also wish they went more into the music stuff, I'm an absolute sucker for this goofy kind of licensed music use in games and would like to have seen more of it.
Otherwise, this thread has kind of made sense in regards to why Comstock came back and stole Anna/Elizabeth, but there's kind of a lot about why Booker turned into Comstock. Like, for example:
1)If Booker was baptized to cleanse himself of the sins of the Boxer Rebellion and Wounded Knee, why does he then prop himself up as the hero of those conflicts?
2)How does Comstock know the AD branding would be the False Shepard? The branding wouldn't have been put on until after Booker gave away Anna, so Comstock should never have known about it.
3)And where does Booker's debt comes from? How does giving up your daughter pay the debt, unless the debt is with Comstock in the first place, but how'd he manage that?
4)And how the hell did Booker get into the same universe as Comstock in the first place? Comstock wants a daughter, so he works with Lucete to open the tear to get Anna. So Comstock went into Booker's universe and takes Anna. At what point does Booker now follow them into that universe to get her back?
I guess there's just a lot that happens in between that doesn't get explained. The Handyman was created when wife wants to keep her cancer-stricken husband alive and I assume that's kind of the basis for how the Songbird was created, but I think the actual origin of the Songbird deserved more focus. It just seems lazy for it to be "created to protect her, comes around occasionally, then dies at the end." Who is in there? Why are they in there? Elizabeth starts out loving it, then hating it, then sad when its gone?
But, as is kind of expected in any store dealing with time paradoxes and alternate dimensions there are going to be holes and incongruences. I also wish they went more into the music stuff, I'm an absolute sucker for this goofy kind of licensed music use in games and would like to have seen more of it.
thomasmahler
Member
After already knowing more about the story and how its setup, re-playing is a lot more enjoyable now than playing it was the first time around, cause I kinda know what I should be looking for.
One thing that Bioshock Infinite definitely shows is that it's ridiculous that we're trying to tell these kinds of stories as an industry while basically staying completely true to what First Person Shooters of the 90s did. I get that you can't pitch a 'Dear Esther Light' to a publisher and expect them to give you the budget required to fulfill your vision, but why does this game have to break out into a 'Kill everything that moves' fanfare 10 minutes into the game?
I completely get why they're doing it - You can't make a game like Bioshock Infinite and pitch to the publisher that it won't be all about shooting everything on the screen, but to me, finding out more about the story and the world and so on is much more enjoyable than the actual action. I still think most of the world setup is bonkers and we also have to stop using these old and stupid videogame tropes and excuses ("it's videogames logic, so it's okay!") in order to craft richer experiences. I don't think it's okay to accept that I get pants that make me reload 25% faster. It might be a small thing, but add all of those small things together and you really get a product that wants to do A, but the execution suggests B.
I just don't get why it had to be quite so much gunplay. There were no puzzles to figure out, you didn't help a single person in Columbia except for yourself and Elizabeth, you didn't really ever interact with the world in a meaningful way.
I don't think it was strongly communicated how the citizens of Columbia treated african americans, yet they could've gotten a lot out of the whole race thing. Religion, similarly, is portrayed more as complete fanaticism, which always makes it very hard to use it in the story in a believable manner.
I don't like the action. I don't like the convoluted story. I think there's a lot of missed opportunity when it comes to the world of Columbia, cause it does deal with important themes, it's kind of a shame that it's such a schizophrenic experience when it comes down to it.
One thing that Bioshock Infinite definitely shows is that it's ridiculous that we're trying to tell these kinds of stories as an industry while basically staying completely true to what First Person Shooters of the 90s did. I get that you can't pitch a 'Dear Esther Light' to a publisher and expect them to give you the budget required to fulfill your vision, but why does this game have to break out into a 'Kill everything that moves' fanfare 10 minutes into the game?
I completely get why they're doing it - You can't make a game like Bioshock Infinite and pitch to the publisher that it won't be all about shooting everything on the screen, but to me, finding out more about the story and the world and so on is much more enjoyable than the actual action. I still think most of the world setup is bonkers and we also have to stop using these old and stupid videogame tropes and excuses ("it's videogames logic, so it's okay!") in order to craft richer experiences. I don't think it's okay to accept that I get pants that make me reload 25% faster. It might be a small thing, but add all of those small things together and you really get a product that wants to do A, but the execution suggests B.
I just don't get why it had to be quite so much gunplay. There were no puzzles to figure out, you didn't help a single person in Columbia except for yourself and Elizabeth, you didn't really ever interact with the world in a meaningful way.
I don't think it was strongly communicated how the citizens of Columbia treated african americans, yet they could've gotten a lot out of the whole race thing. Religion, similarly, is portrayed more as complete fanaticism, which always makes it very hard to use it in the story in a believable manner.
I don't like the action. I don't like the convoluted story. I think there's a lot of missed opportunity when it comes to the world of Columbia, cause it does deal with important themes, it's kind of a shame that it's such a schizophrenic experience when it comes down to it.
1) As his ego grows increasingly out of control, his memories change to make him the hero. That was my interpretation anyway, I seem to recall some dialogue back that up during the Hall Of Heroes scene but can't remember what it was.
2) Maybe the Lettuces* warned Comstock about it? That said, I'm rather unsure about their role in the whole thing. My original prediction while playing was that they (or alternate versions of them) were the ones manipulating the situation into getting DeWitt to rescue Elizabeth and delete Columbia and Comstock from history, thus saving themselves from being murdered (since being killed in one universe seemed to negatively affect those living in another), but the climactic exposition dump killed that idea.
3 and 4) I would also like possible answers to this, especially 4.
*I kept reading Luteces as Lettuces throughout, and by golly I'm sticking to that. It makes me giggle, for one thing.
2.I'm pretty sure Comstock was able to use the tears to see into those other "possibilities" and even the future, that's how he knew what was going to happen, maybe not every single thing exactly, but it seems the main bits that shapes the reality of this story always happen, like booker coming to columbia, freeing Liz, and kiiling Comstock.
3. This part is a little sketchy. What kind of man will sell his daughter to pay a debt? But we don't have enough info on the back story of the things that led to this event.
4. The Lutece siblings brought Booker to that possibility, part of their experiment of trying to fix their mistake.
A lot of posts in this thread have helped me piece a few things together.
Help me understand one thing though:
The discovery of quantum physics/alternate realities by Lutece is the catalyst for all events in the game, basically, right?
Why exactly do they send Booker (our Booker, the protagonist) on the mission to get the girl? What's in it for them? There are Voxophones that indicate they were murdered by Comstock (I forget why) -- are they out to get Booker to make the decisions he does that ultimately lead to his/Comstock's erasure from reality?
(or at least, from the appropriate realities that allow them to exist again?)
Is it revenge?
(or something)
Fuck. Alternate reality/timeline bullshit will never have an airtight explanation. Consider me excited and miserable that this is where Infinite's story ultimately went. Haha.
Help me understand one thing though:
The discovery of quantum physics/alternate realities by Lutece is the catalyst for all events in the game, basically, right?
Why exactly do they send Booker (our Booker, the protagonist) on the mission to get the girl? What's in it for them? There are Voxophones that indicate they were murdered by Comstock (I forget why) -- are they out to get Booker to make the decisions he does that ultimately lead to his/Comstock's erasure from reality?
(or at least, from the appropriate realities that allow them to exist again?)
Is it revenge?
(or something)
Fuck. Alternate reality/timeline bullshit will never have an airtight explanation. Consider me excited and miserable that this is where Infinite's story ultimately went. Haha.
Keeping the pace
1) That sounds about right, but it is... not well done?
2) Lady Lutece's interests in the beggining is just science. Then she finds her male self. Then they grabs Anna/Elizabeth. Then they see the future. Then they regret what they set in motion. Then they go back and try to fix it.
3) His debt comes from gambling. Comstock is rich. He maybe just "bought" the debt. It is done all the time in the real world.
4) The Lucetes create the tear that drags him out of his office into the game's reality. The door is the portal.
I'm pretty sure some of it might be explained in coming DLC.
I think there's even a recording of that fact closer to the end of the game in that broken house (that is not floating correctly) near the graveyard where they talk about hearing music through tears, recording it and basically becoming a Mozart of Columbia.
Yep, I also think there's recording explaining some of the tech of Columbia had the same origin.
Plus the whole city floats AFAIK on a time/space frozen particles of some sort. That was talked about in the sequece when you ride the cable car and Lutece's do small scenes on floatin platforms with billboards.
I think the catalyst(s) is when Booker gets baptized and don't get baptized. With him dead before that non of this is going to happen.
Always found it interesting that without Elizabeth, death involves briefly seeing your old PI room again, and being pulled through the doorway. If that doorway might be a tear, it starts getting me thinking that we could be coming back as Bookers from other universes/realities every time we die, and that the one were just playing as stays dead. Meanwhile, if Elizabeth's around, she brings you back. Interesting, given she's the one that operates tears to begin with. Fun things to think about.
Sorry, what I meant was, the catalyst for all of the game's history (Columbia) to really be possible. It all starts with the Lutece-discovery of tears, right?
Sorry, what I meant was, the catalyst for all of the game's history (Columbia) to really be possible. It all starts with the Lutece-discovery of tears, right?
That's half right. Without the Lucetes nothing would have happened either, but maybe killing Booker was easier, somehow. Booker had this one moment where you can cancel all of these universes. Maybe the Lucetes didn't had anything as simples, maybe there wasn't a focal point for them like this, if even being born a different gender didn't stoped either of them of becoming a scientist.
fluffydelusions
Member
Kinda reminds me of the movie oldboy story wise. Yes I know not exactly the same (obviously).
If the theory goes that Elizabeth/Anna (I want to keep saying Elizabeth, because Anna was Lady Comstock's name, right? -- a totally different person) was infused with 'dimensional power' during the traversal/incident that took her finger, then the tears happened well before they got the girl.
In this theory, Comstock goes after Booker's daughter merely because he wants his own daughter, genetically speaking, not because she has any power. Because she didn't have any until the incident.
...right?
Fuck.
Angelus Errare
Banned
The floating city isn't Tears, it's "quantum particles that remain in a fixed location." Elizabeth talks about this when you're trying to board Lady Constock ship, this was the discovery that allowed Columbia to float. Comstock with Lucete's discovery got financing to create Columbia. Lucete became Comstock/Columbia's top scientist, it wasn't until later that Lucete discovered tears, she found a male version of herself and they together expanded on the tears. Elizabeth's power most likely comes from her finger being cut from the tear closing as a infant. But Tears themselves came before Elizabeth.
Well technically it's still infinite, Elizabeth says as much, there are infinite variations on what could happen in those two worlds. Just a random example, what if Comstock slipped and fell one day and died? Or alternatively, what if Elizabeth complies with Comstock but randomly decides to turn on him? Etc, etc, etc.
revisionist history is a powerful thing, especially when you're trying to sell yourself as a leader.
Lady Comstock couldn't produce an heir, by the time this is made aware, Lucete was already able to use tears to go into other timelines, Comstock sees the daughter he would have had if he never became Comstock and thus sees himself including the branding.
From what I've gathered, It's kind of inferred that DeWitt incurred a huge gambling type debt. Comstock is rich, so when he visits DeWitt's timeline he offers to pay Dewitt's gambling debt but Booker now owes Comstock, and by playing the story we realize his debt to Comstock is his child.
The two Lucetes drag him into the world. The Lucetes decide that they need to undo what they did and grab DeWitt from his world and drag him to Comstock's world. This is shown at the end portion of the game as you're traveling with Elizabeth through different variations of the two universes.
thomasmahler
Member
Another thing that's a bit weird: If Booker and Comstock are the exact same person, wouldn't they also have the exact same voice? Wouldn't that mean that Booker or Elizabeth should be totally freaked out about that?
There are so many amazing scenes. I especially like the part where you come out of rapture and the sky is filled with stars. Incredible.
I love how the game takes a break from the gameplay and go into "story telling mode", I know a lot of games do this but here it's just executed so good. Irrational are truly masters of their craft.
Comstock is older then Booker, it's mentioned in one of the audio logs that for some reason messing with the tears also made Comstock to age much faster then normal.
I love how the game takes a break from the gameplay and go into "story telling mode", I know a lot of games do this but here it's just executed so good. Irrational are truly masters of their craft.
Comstock is older then Booker, it's mentioned in one of the audio logs that for some reason messing with the tears also made Comstock to age much faster then normal.
Would have made it too obvious too early, plus would've been weird in Booker/Comstock conversations. See: MGS4 ending.
LiquidMamba
Member
This might be a stupid question, but how does the timeline line up? Did they go back in time and bring a younger Booker/Comstock from another universe?