-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
disappeared
Banned
What's really interesting is that they announced "Infinite" years ago. We just accepted it as the tagline to the game, but its impact doesn't really kick in until you hit the last half-hour of the game, and then hit "new game."
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I'm honestly really interested in hearing how far Levine planned this, because the line Booker says about the stars in the Rapture-verse could either be filling in the blanks or that's just how it was written.
yeah even the wya the logo animates looks like it's looping over and over and in time.
MotionBlue
Member
Bioshock Infinite is basically the End of Evangelion of gaming now. We're all going to be arguing details for a good long while.
Aw, they totally missed a chance for mind fuckery.
Aw, they totally missed a chance for mind fuckery.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
From all the interviews and whatnot I've seen with Ken, the idea for Infinite didn't come about until after Bioshock 1 was shipped.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
What I'm interesting in knowing is how Comstock's crew knew "The false prophet" (aka Booker) was coming, and they had the exact A.D tattoo printed on posters as a warning sign for the false prophet.
How did they know that ?
Booker remarks at one point whether it was the same people who hired him (Lucete's) who informed Comstock, but that doesn't make sense, why would they ?
How did they know that ?
Booker remarks at one point whether it was the same people who hired him (Lucete's) who informed Comstock, but that doesn't make sense, why would they ?
disappeared
Banned
Because it's happened before. At some point, "Comstock" knew of "Anna Dewitt" and knew of his/Booker's attempt to save her.
Everything happens in and of itself. The entire world is self-aware of the past, the present, and the future.
Same way they have music and technology from the future - observing it through tears.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Then it's a real bummer of an infinite loop. Booker/Comstock always die at the hands of either themselves or their own daughter, and the timeline repeats itself.
I did start the game once again and the opening section on the boat, all the things the Lucete's say about "repeating the experiment" and the brain making new memories etc, it just fits so well with the theme and how the game ends.
They might as well call this the last Bioshock game ever and it'd be Ok.
I don't buy that theory, "regular" people can only HEAR things through the tears, and catch very small glimpses. Booker's tattoo, his entire motive is a very specific thing to be casually observed through a random tear by an untrained eye.
disappeared
Banned
It really is beautiful.
A doomed fairy tale.
Like if Sleeping Beauty never woke up and the Prince really did die of old age because of Maleficent. Like he went senile and just made up the "real" ending to the film.
A doomed fairy tale.
Like if Sleeping Beauty never woke up and the Prince really did die of old age because of Maleficent. Like he went senile and just made up the "real" ending to the film.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Yup, the heads or tails part basically reinforces this.
disappeared
Banned
I'm about five hours into my second playthrough and I've been taking notes the whole time. I plan on writing and perhaps filming an analysis of infinite at some point.
This is basically like the last video game I ever need to play.
I don't think Comstock was a regular person - he was clearly being helped by the Luteces to some extent, the way I figure it they helped him utilize tears and this was the source of his "prophecy".
disappeared
Banned
A big mystery of Comstock's background is if he was indeed actually "visited" by an arch-angel.
This could also be an allusion to Booker's "rebirth" after having been drowned/baptized by his daughter. A near-death experience, perhaps.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
So if the Luteces can see the future, does the outcome of the game basically render them as a pair of assholes who just like watching events unfold, and mildly intervening in scenarios just to give all of the different Bookers and Elizabeths just enough help to get them to the next stage? In fact, does anything explain how they are bringing themselves into different universes?
Also, can we talk about what would have happened if Elizabeth never brought them both into the first tear, where Chen was alive?
edit: sorry I keep calling them the lettuce twins, bad typos
Also, can we talk about what would have happened if Elizabeth never brought them both into the first tear, where Chen was alive?
edit: sorry I keep calling them the lettuce twins, bad typos
What if the arch-angel was the manifestation of Lady Comstock generated from Elizabeth's hatred, from an alternate reality?
Shit, I think I just mindfucked myself.
That's because those are the Motorized Patriots of the Vox Populi.
The only thing about the ending that I cannot make sense of, is Rapture. I'm not so convinced by the "lighthouse, man, city" thing, that was pure fanservice to me, but great fanservice tho, my jaw hit the floor.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Remember tears aren't just alternate timelines they're alternate timelines that can take place at different time periods. Comstock simply got a glimpse into a timeline that was in the future and played off it. Comstock thought he was seeing the future of his timeline, but it was the possible future of another timeline.
Hahaha this is sounding more and more like Fringe.
Angelus Errare
Banned
That's what I think.
Wasn't it just a co-incidental tear located at the point Songbird was attacking the statue? Could've been anywhere, I guess.
disappeared
Banned
But then... Booker just repeats the whole thing.
He doesn't learn.
So, perhaps, this is Booker's final "version" of "Infinite"?
His hell, his limbo? Pushing the stone up the eternal mountain?
He doesn't learn.
So, perhaps, this is Booker's final "version" of "Infinite"?
His hell, his limbo? Pushing the stone up the eternal mountain?
MotionBlue
Member
In recordings they say Comstock didn't understand the tears, and thought they told the absolute future. In truth they showed only probable outcomes, due to the nature of timeline divergence.
disappeared
Banned
He was perhaps deluded then?
I need to track down the last ~30 of the voxophone tapes I missed. :/
MotionBlue
Member
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
I think to a degree, the game feels replay able, but not in the sense that the ending is the same. I would feel better if there was a course of actions that could be taken that yield a more lively ending.
Since there isn't, it's like Booker is stuck in an "infinite" hell.
Since there isn't, it's like Booker is stuck in an "infinite" hell.
Angelus Errare
Banned
I have almost all of them, I'm going to go through another playthrough probably on easy so I can spend more time looking for stuff than fighting.
Yes, of course, but I mean the relation between Rapture (BioShock) and Infinite's story that they tried to make with the "lighthouse, man, city" thing.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Comstock/Booker may have had some level of cognitive/prophetic power in reality too. Booker DID see a vision of new york under attack before coming into contact with Elizabeth, when he enters Colombia for the first time.
And suddenly Bioshock : INFINITE makes a hell of a lot more sense.
I believe at that point Elizabeth has basically attained the power to CREATE tears when ever she wants to, which is something she claims to have been able to do before the tower started to syphon away her power.
She just created the tear out of nothingness, how/why she chose Rapture is a mystery. Maybe what we (the gamer) perceive as RAPTURE, was just a gateway, a nexus, to the "Sea of gates".
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/605052-bioshock-infinite/65798681
The female Lutece found her 'brother' (who's an alternate reality version of herself) and brought him into her own universe. Using the same technology, Comstock uses tears to see the future and become a "prophet." (This is also how he knows Dewitt is coming). Lutece bringing her brother into her universe and otherwise messing with the multiverse causes all sorts of crazy metaphysical issues. Her brother gives her an ultimatum to either fix the problem she caused or he would leave her forever. Realizing that, either way, she'll be separated from him forever, she decides to attempt to fix things to make him happy. Bringing DeWitt into DeWitt into the Colombia timeline is how she sets that all in motion.
After the credits, you see DeWitt check Anna's crib, theoretically because, with the multiverse fixed, she never gets kidnapped and never becomes Elizabeth, since Lutece never comes to buy her.
disappeared
Banned
But that's the beauty of it.
We witness a man going through his own personal hell. Over and over.
The quote at the beginning of the game says
Either Booker is in a PTSD coma and he's trying to break free, or he's locked in a permanent treadmill wheel of memories of regret and sadness that he's trying desperately to fix, but can't.
Remember that every "flashback" memory he has is in his office. There are empty beer and wine bottles, cigarette packs, and notes scattered on his desk.
He's the failed detective who can't even get his own daughter back. He keeps searching but never finding. He fucked up royally with himself/Comstock and the Luteces (who might not even be real).
It's like Memento. He keeps creating riddles to solve but he never makes up the answers.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
scratched lottery tickets too.. which I thought was a really nice touch.
The guy is shown to be REALLY out of it.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
To me, I don't think it's the same Booker repeating things over and over.
It's each seperate universe's booker, as evidenced by making different (albeit small and inconsequential/limited in terms of changing narrative/gameplay that we see) choices along the way, distinguishing the universe and separating it from any other universe by the choices he makes.
Basically, the way I see it, all of the multiverse's Bookers reach some semblance of convergence upon reaching the ending sequence, which is why multiple versions of Liz show up (and are drowning ALL of the Bookers), and this converging point is what allows Liz to 'negate' the baptism event and return the timeline to where Comstock never existed, hence Booker never sold Anna, hence the post-epilogue scene.
Pretty sure that quote is referencing how the Luteces removed Booker's memories of selling Anna when they dragged him into Comstock's universe/timeline, and his mind conjures up the story about how he has to rescue Elizabeth to pay off his debts.
disappeared
Banned
Holy fuck...
What if the entire game is made up.
In Booker's mind? He's just a failed ex-Pinkerton/war-vet who's out of work and decides to make up the ultimate un-crackable story?
Jesus... I don't know if I want to go down that path.
What if the entire game is made up.
In Booker's mind? He's just a failed ex-Pinkerton/war-vet who's out of work and decides to make up the ultimate un-crackable story?
Jesus... I don't know if I want to go down that path.
disappeared
Banned
But when do they remove Booker's memory? The scene shows the two Lutece twins (already in their yellow raincoats) picking him up. For all intents and purposes he was lying on the shore of Maine, after being "baptized", and they took him and put him (back) in the boat. The multiple versions of Elizabeth are simply the results of the multiple times he's tried to save her. They all take on a slightly different variation. He's "saved" all of them, but they all drown him in the end.
I don't think they explicitly say that his memory is removed, but their dialogue in that scene certainly says that Booker doesn't remember what's happened (which I took as - doesn't remember that he sold his daughter Anna to pay off his debts) and his mind is coming up with new memories to fill their place (that he is, instead, needing to bring back Elizabeth to pay off his debts).
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
^
it's also possible that in one such instance he finds himself on a plane, instead of a boat, with a box that states "would you kindly open this after the plane reaches a certain set of coordinates" .. and he thinks to himself "They told me .. Son... you're special. You were born to do great things." And you know what? They were right. before opening the box.
imagine that huh ..
it's also possible that in one such instance he finds himself on a plane, instead of a boat, with a box that states "would you kindly open this after the plane reaches a certain set of coordinates" .. and he thinks to himself "They told me .. Son... you're special. You were born to do great things." And you know what? They were right. before opening the box.
imagine that huh ..
disappeared
Banned
Here's another thing. The "debt."
It's never explicitally mentioned. What it is, who he owes it to.
The only actual verbal reference comes when Lutece says, "Your debt to Mr./Father Comstock is absolved."
He owed a debt to Comstock/himself?
I can only think of the "loop" theory.
He destroyed Columbia, that which he created, to save his own daughter. So he must "build" it again (Comstock's "arch-angel" story) only to save his daughter/"the girl" from himself/Comstock.
The whole thing fucking loops.
I'm telling you.
It's like chicken and egg.
I'm a little drunk.
I need to speak to Ken.
Yup that's what I love about it to.
People might go "BAH, this makes Infinite a pointless game"
But I just think there's something so, emotionally "heavy", about a guy forever being stuck in an infinite loop, forever destined to repeat the same mistakes over and over and over and over and over and over.
There's just something, so...I don't know..like...damn. Made me really think about life in some weird way.
I applaud Levine for this ending. It took balls, and paid off.
indigo-cyclops
Member
A very dense philosophical story with this one, and I fucking loved it. Tackled a lot of interesting issues. I was floored once the ending sequence started up, and by the end couldn't help but think back to all the cues.
I did have a hunch that Comstock = DeWitt just before the face-to-face encounter (when Comstock chimes in over intercom about Booker not seeming "quite right"). But I let go of the thought until later on.
The atmosphere/visual style was so fucking beautiful laced with symbolism, I loved it. Levine is a master storyteller in games.
I did have a hunch that Comstock = DeWitt just before the face-to-face encounter (when Comstock chimes in over intercom about Booker not seeming "quite right"). But I let go of the thought until later on.
The atmosphere/visual style was so fucking beautiful laced with symbolism, I loved it. Levine is a master storyteller in games.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Well they do state it's a gambling debt. Gambling could me he took a gamble to change things, who knows.
Which makes me wonder if the "debt" Booker thought he was paying off (his gambling debt) was not the debt the Luteces meant.