The entire sequence of events in the movie can be a good setup for a sequel featuring Lex.
He just need to convince the entire world to blame Superman for everything that happen.
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SPOILER THREAD - Man of Steel: Superman 2013
- Thread starter shira
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The entire sequence of events in the movie can be a good setup for a sequel featuring Lex.
He just need to convince the entire world to blame Superman for everything that happen.
A lot of people think one of the easter eggs in the film is that one of the opened pods in the ship was Kara Zor-El one of his relatives (aka Supergirl)...so there would be your connection...
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Devin Faraci with an essay on the problems he has with the "wanton destruction" of Metropolis in Man of Steel (with bonus Mark Waid quotes)
http://badassdigest.com/2013/06/15/why-the-destruction-in-man-of-steel-matters
Deborah Snyder shot that one down in a Collider interview, I believe.
http://badassdigest.com/2013/06/15/why-the-destruction-in-man-of-steel-matters
Deborah Snyder shot that one down in a Collider interview, I believe.
good read. I think it makes a great point, especially how his decision to kill Zod is trivialized by it all.
Ah, alright
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I get where he's going, but again, the scale of it seems way smaller to me than how he percieved it. It doesn't look like square miles to me. That grey, dead area of the city once the ship is crashed and Zod's ship is sucked into the singularity is maybe 8-10 blocks, tops. Maybe 1 square mile.
And most of the destruction really is on Zod's behalf. Superman takes him to the air as often as he can, even throwing him into space at one point.
The geography of it becomes a little more apparent on rewatch. Metropolis is fuckin HUGE, and a pretty small part of it was actually affected.
But the point he's making is sound: There's absolutely no reason NOT to have even a few lines of dialog from Superman (or Clark, really) explaining WHY he's trying to take Zod up and away (hah) from the street level.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
The senseless destruction and lack of regard for civilians is what I would expect and want from a Hulk movie. Not from a Superman movie.
Yeah, all that, Plus like I said in the other thread, vast majority of the death and damage was caused by the terraforming. Seems kind of silly to me to hear someone say Superman caused thousands of deaths
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Can we please combine the Man of Steel threads now? There is so much cross pollination it is getting confusing.
Well that suit is clearly made for a dude anyway (unless Kryptonian underarmor suits are one-size-fits all unisex). But the open pod should be another potential future Kryptonian enemy.
If you think about it, how did the folks on that ship die anyway? They would become gods on Earth and we were just primitive tribal people back then. They could have ruled us literally like gods 18,000 years ago, and then phone home to tell the folks the good times to be had here...
"Dudes! we're like, all flying and shit! Indestructible! Super strong too! Wait until I tell ya what's coming out of our eyes!"
I say give it a week so more people have a chance to see it.
sketchsanchez
Member
But then we have to spoiler tag everything, eff that.
It's hard man
It's hard man
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
It's pretty amusing that Faraci decides to blame Nolan.
I agree with all his points, but that line is really awkward to me.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
I blame all three main players: Nolan, Goyer, and Snyder.
It's less he caused the deaths, more how indifferent he is to all this death around himbut then we're expected to be on the edge of our seat because of an idiot family who can't get out of the way? it's just a bit inconsistent tonally, imo.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I don't think he's indifferent - but it could be made much more explicit with just a couple lines of dialog.
But I didn't get the sense he was blase/indifferent about stopping Zod.
edit: The more we talk about this more I'm really reminded about people's problems with the last act of Begins, too. Lot of similar discussions about collateral damage and ridiculous plans...
But I didn't get the sense he was blase/indifferent about stopping Zod.
edit: The more we talk about this more I'm really reminded about people's problems with the last act of Begins, too. Lot of similar discussions about collateral damage and ridiculous plans...
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Oh, he wanted to stop Zod. That was never in question to me. It is just that he was too focused on punching Zod around that he didn't notice the city crumbling around him.
sketchsanchez
Member
I'm reading this but i have to comment on this part
He's so on the money that i immediately pictured Superman trying to slap away those missles while getting blindsided by Faora. How much better does that scene work if he loses that fight because he keeps trying to save lives and not because he got out "supered"?
A lot, imo
He obviously wants to stop Zod, but he's indifferent to the collateral damage. When you've got two superbeings punching the shit out of each other, you're bound to destroy a few buildings along the way—like you say, it just needed a line or two of dialogue to ground the action and Superman's decisions. and maybe it's something as stupid as some random general saying "well, everyone's evacuated the city from an X block radius from the city center" but the way it's edited right now, he seems much more focused on stopping Zod in both the Smallville and Metropolis fights than he is about immediate civilian casualties. Whish is fine, if they're going for a "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" type thing, but if it's that, then that should've been more explicit too.
My biggest problem with the last act of Begins is that Batman kills Ra's. I'm generally in a BB > TDK mood, but TDK's joker utilized Batman's no-killing rule very explicitly and effectively.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I agree there. I think the fact this is his first real super-fight gives the sequence some leeway (he just learned to fly like, yesterday) but not everything in the movie can (or should) be explained away by shrugging and saying "Superman Begins, amirite?"
The most jarring part of that fight was Superman straight up flying Zod through a silo and then through a goddamn GAS STATION. I was like "Jesus, Clark. That's - you know the layout of this town, dude."
You're right, and it would have been SO EASY to ADR some dude in a helicopter over the radio saying "civilians are such and such distance away" or something along those lines.
The most jarring part of that fight was Superman straight up flying Zod through a silo and then through a goddamn GAS STATION. I was like "Jesus, Clark. That's - you know the layout of this town, dude."
You're right, and it would have been SO EASY to ADR some dude in a helicopter over the radio saying "civilians are such and such distance away" or something along those lines.
Angry Fork
Member
lol I noticed this too. It's like Snyder saw Prometheus and said let's not do this.
Dude was just straight up threatening and choke holding his mother off the ground, just saying
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yeah, but that moment of intelligence is nullified by the fact they saw that thing come down, then saw the Dubstep Machine activate, and STILL DIDN'T LEAVE.
I wouldn't have waited for Perry White to tell us all it was time to go. Sorry boss. Giant insectoid space-ship descending upon the city? Peace.
Yeah, his reaction is COMPLETELY understandable, but out of all the things Clark did in the movie, I think that was the one that had me going "Dude, JESUS, slow-up for a sec."
I wouldn't have waited for Perry White to tell us all it was time to go. Sorry boss. Giant insectoid space-ship descending upon the city? Peace.
Yeah, his reaction is COMPLETELY understandable, but out of all the things Clark did in the movie, I think that was the one that had me going "Dude, JESUS, slow-up for a sec."
greendomo's ghost
Member
Totally agree. Leaving himself vulnerable to attack just so he can save some people would've really helped that scene. A quick shot of him using his xray to make sure a building was empty before knocking Zod into it. A line or two if necessary saying that that that part of the city had been evacuated. Have a push and pull of him trying to move the combat away from populated areas, and Zod and Faora trying to push it back that way.
Any of those things would've been relatively small additions, but they would've made a huge difference.
Schweinehund
Member
That neck snap at the end, Jesus. Loved it, really put supes on the spot there.
I hope we see lex in the next one, and braniac for the league movie. Doomsday should be last up on the plate.
I hope they can make a good Flash movie next. Batman reboot probably already on the plate, Green Lantern already getting a sequel, curious if there is an audience for Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter should just be introduced in the JLA movie.
I hope we see lex in the next one, and braniac for the league movie. Doomsday should be last up on the plate.
I hope they can make a good Flash movie next. Batman reboot probably already on the plate, Green Lantern already getting a sequel, curious if there is an audience for Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter should just be introduced in the JLA movie.
Dream movie is a Captain Marvel/Shazam movie, especially after seeing the CGI in this film.
sketchsanchez
Member
Good article, thanks for sharing it Fatboy.
He brings up superman going to the south american world engine as a kind of weakness for the film, even adding:
But I think they do kind of do what he asks and its pretty much the movies only use of the old saying "show, dont tell". When the army sends out fighter jets to deal with the Metropolis world engine it's gravity effects not only pull down the missles but it drags the planes down with it. It basically was invulnerable, and i guess he could have gone with them but it was surrounded by zods forces and no way they'd let him approach.
The southern one was the easier target to destroy and stop the gravity issue.
He brings up superman going to the south american world engine as a kind of weakness for the film, even adding:
But I think they do kind of do what he asks and its pretty much the movies only use of the old saying "show, dont tell". When the army sends out fighter jets to deal with the Metropolis world engine it's gravity effects not only pull down the missles but it drags the planes down with it. It basically was invulnerable, and i guess he could have gone with them but it was surrounded by zods forces and no way they'd let him approach.
The southern one was the easier target to destroy and stop the gravity issue.
another reason I like the whole "stopping the missiles from destroying smallville" idea is because it really goes well with this whole idea that Superman is as much on Earth to protect humanity from itself as he is to protect them from genocidal aliens. sure, it's a Donner-esque idea (kind of a Watchman-y one too) and I guess they didn't want to make the movie too morally complex... (though Jor-El's and Zod's motivations were hardly as black and white as the movie seemed to treat them) but it could have been interesting. Hell, during the last act I thought "why don't they just nuke these assholes?" and it could have been as much Superman preventing Metropolis from having to be collateral damage as it is defeating Zod.
just thinking aloud at this point.
I don't want to hate on Man of Steel for being a different movie than I wanted, but the whole civilians thing... it seems like a missed opportunity forgone so Superman can have uninterrupted action scenes.
just thinking aloud at this point.
I don't want to hate on Man of Steel for being a different movie than I wanted, but the whole civilians thing... it seems like a missed opportunity forgone so Superman can have uninterrupted action scenes.
greendomo's ghost
Member
One other question I had. The whole atmospheric differences affecting the Kryptonians.
When Supes was subjected to Kryptonian atmosphere he was basically completely depowered. But the Kryptonians had super strength while suited up and breathing their own 'air'. But then when their masks came off, and they were fully subjected to the atmosphere they got the xray and heat vision.
Just felt like some strange double standards to me.
When Supes was subjected to Kryptonian atmosphere he was basically completely depowered. But the Kryptonians had super strength while suited up and breathing their own 'air'. But then when their masks came off, and they were fully subjected to the atmosphere they got the xray and heat vision.
Just felt like some strange double standards to me.
It was a decent movie. My main beefs are the over the top scale of destruction and the complete lack of any acknowledgment after the fact of 'holy shit that just happened'.
I also think Superman's fighting style is boring as shit, but that's always been the case. It is just more apparent in this movie because Faora is a total badass. Her fighting style was so much more visually interesting, while Superman's is straight outta dragonball: 'let's just fly at each other full speed and fly through building and traincars repeatedly'. Gets really old after about the 10th skyscraper he plows through.
I also think Superman's fighting style is boring as shit, but that's always been the case. It is just more apparent in this movie because Faora is a total badass. Her fighting style was so much more visually interesting, while Superman's is straight outta dragonball: 'let's just fly at each other full speed and fly through building and traincars repeatedly'. Gets really old after about the 10th skyscraper he plows through.
TheKaeptain
Banned
That's what I was saying. Superman tried to dictate where the fight was going but Zod kept bringing him back down.
I would disagree with everything there since it's predicated on the belief that Superman needs to have his moral code and tactical framework firmly and entirely in place before he ever puts on the costume or is called into action. I think that's dramatically uninteresting and one of the things that makes people see Superman as a boring character.
I'm also glad they didn't sterilize the logical implications of Zod's mission. He and his crew didn't give a fuck about humanity, so even if Superman kept running off to unpopulated areas, they'd just keep on doing their thing. They were holding all the cards and would have no reason to play Superman's games. We see this play out a little bit, although it's not made explicit through dialogue. I thought the third act did a fantastic job showing that real people and the world were in serious jeopardy, as opposed to The Avengers or really any of the Marvel movies that mysteriously contain the threat and have very little weight or consequence.
I thought Man of Steel was pretty great. Not flawless, but it hits so many things out of the park and avoids tripping over any of the big important elements.
sketchsanchez
Member
really? damn I need to watch the avengers again. not my fault they both have similar alien invasion shit in big cities!
good for whedon. common sense prevails.
I think the seemingly indifference of Supes to the people around him is intentional - the dude is literally having the second or third fight of his life EVER, and it's over the fate of the world. Remember his dad virtually raised him as a pacifist - he didn't undergo any sort of military or martial arts training like Batman. He didn't even fight in High School! He's green as hell and he's learning to fight as a god for the sake of all humanity, so he did his best of taking the fight out of metropolis but his enemy is better and nastier. So he didn't have time to think about collateral damage. Maybe this is intentional and we'll see this issue addressed in the next movie.
In fact I still wonder how he can beat Zod since like Zod said, he was engineered to be a fighter. With equal strength and power (with Zod learning the new powers much faster than Kal-El), abd a much stronger motivation (Kal just betrayed and murdered his entire race), Zod should have murdered Kal-El instead, not the other way around. Unless he's a natural born fighter like Goku, (unlikely since his dad was more scientist than fighter), this fight should have been a very short and one-sided affair. But oh well, movies. In fact I kinda hoped that next movie we'll see Batman teaching a thing or two to Supes on how to fight bad guys.
In fact I still wonder how he can beat Zod since like Zod said, he was engineered to be a fighter. With equal strength and power (with Zod learning the new powers much faster than Kal-El), abd a much stronger motivation (Kal just betrayed and murdered his entire race), Zod should have murdered Kal-El instead, not the other way around. Unless he's a natural born fighter like Goku, (unlikely since his dad was more scientist than fighter), this fight should have been a very short and one-sided affair. But oh well, movies. In fact I kinda hoped that next movie we'll see Batman teaching a thing or two to Supes on how to fight bad guys.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Unless Jor-El spent much of his time studying the Sweet Science.
True, but that's going to be something learned by Jor-El later in life as his genetic encoding was to be a scientist the moment he was born. His son would carry only his genes, not whatever he's learned later on. Unless his mom came from a warrior clan, then maybe. I have the feeling though that no one has a mom and dad in Krypton - you were born from a machine and probably raised communally with no set mom and dad - all the genes were pre-coded so there's no need for biological parents. Kal-El maybe the first person who has a mom and dad in centuries, and maybe that gave his gene some distinct advantage, hence perhaps he's Super even among his fellow Kryptonians. This theory I can buy, other wise I just can't believe somehow an ordinary joe who has never fought anyone defeated a super solider just like that.
Still, the dude had no training. Not even a guy who love to get into fights like a James T. Kirk. Only thing he had going for him was his Sun-given powers, and that was negated by the other Super Kryptonians. A guy who has never throw a fist will not beat a trained boxer, no matter how good his genes are.
TheKaeptain
Banned
He's also a whole stronger than Zod.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Yup. Zod had a day or two to soak up the rays of the yellow sun. Clark had a few decades.
Yeah but I'm betting he never had a fight, since he would have been killing people left and right. He had no sparring partner at all.
He also doesn't look like he's much stronger than Zod. They were going after each other pretty much equally, with Zod learning the powers faster than he could, so I dunno if he's THAT much stronger than Zod. If you charge a battery for 10 years, it will still be just 100% full. Unless sunlight transformation is very slow (it doesn't look that way based on how every other Kryptonians fight), there's no advantage for Kal-El other than that he has gotten used to the side-effects already.
sketchsanchez
Member
Well I think that's what Zod was getting at when he shed his armor, he was getting more powerful and more in control with every moment. Kal was only able to hold his own due to overwhelming power but Eventually Zod was gonna mop the floor with Kal.
However perhaps Zod was letting him win so to speak. I think he wanted to die so he might not have fought as hard as he would/could. Zod starts the fight by informing Kal that his only reason for existence is for the protection and greater good of Krypton and its people. Since there will be no more Kryptonians or a new Krypton he has no purpose in life, right?. His warrior programming couldnt handle failure or obsolescence. So I think we can assume that Zod could have broken out of the choke hold or twitched his head closer to the family if he wanted to. What he was really doing was begging for Kal to kill him the only way a warrior of his caste would want to go out. Like Faora said, a good death is its own reward.
mugurumakensei
Member
The yellow sun and the Earth's relative lack of gravity compared to Krypton is what gave them super strength.
The Earth's atmosphere gave the extra powers.
Clark weakened around Kryptonian atmosphere because his body is not used to the harshness of Krypton. It's stated specifically by Zod as Superman coughs up blood. The others had decades to adjust to Kryptonian atmosphere.
I agree with this. I think Zod was just suicidal too. What's the point even if he wins and wipe out humanity? It would be just him alone on a dead planet. Zod simple forced this dumb "hero" to help him commit suicide, since a warrior must die in battle field.
I mean really, if your eyes is shooting out lasers, all you have to do to kill someone is to LOOK AT THEM.
Evolution_1ne
Banned
Zod would have murdered Kal if it wasn't for the fact the he been on the planet for so long thus having more time to develop and control his powers
Zod was learning to do in mere hours/days what it took nearly 30 years for Kal to learn, suffice it to say if Zod had spent like just a few weeks soaking up the Sun he would have squashed Superman like a bug
edit: what sketchsanckez said
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