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[ShadowSoldier89]

Yeah. Lol but I don't like it. There's a difference between a cool and eye-opening realization and just shoving stuff to a character for the sake of the story. I don't like that Akechi is Shido's son. I refuse to call that good writing.

It was the simplest route to creating Shido as an enemy to Akechi as well. I do agree that it wasnt the best method.

 

[Mediking]

It was the simplest route to creating Shido as an enemy to Akechi as well. I do agree that it wasnt the best method.

That whole part where Akechi revealed that he was Shido's son was very.... -_-

But hey. Igor's reveal was so awesome that I cheered.

 

[Autoignition]

Yeah. Lol but I don't like it. There's a difference between a cool and eye-opening realization and just shoving stuff to a character for the sake of the story. I don't like that Akechi is Shido's son. I refuse to call that good writing.

If you remove Akechi's lineage from his story, he doesn't have a story. That'd be like saying, "I don't like that Futaba is a super hacker. I refuse to call that good writing." Remove that from the character, and literally what purpose does that character have for being in the story or even the game at all?

 

[Setsu00]

Hey, I get it. I just don't get mad at the newcomers to Persona and SMT who were caught off guard by how SMT Persona 5 (and literally all the Persona games) gets at the end. MAN VS ???? is a staple.

But the point I tried to make was that it doesn't matter that P5 uses SMT tropes quite overtly during its final act because essentially quite a few JRPGs turn into an allegorical battle between mankind and some divine entity at that point. What matters is that the ending's execution was ultimately right from a narrative standpoint as everything lead up to the final battle with Yaldabaoth. You'd have to down right ignore 90% of the game's foreshadowing (and some of it is really, really, really obvious) to honestly believe that Mementos Depths and its story arc come out of nowhere.

 

[Mediking]

If you remove Akechi's lineage from his story, he doesn't have a story. That'd be like saying, "I don't like that Futaba is a super hacker. I refuse to call that good writing." Remove that from the character, and literally what purpose does that character have for being in the story or even the game at all?

??? He could've been the star detective that got couldn't deal with the pressure anymore and decided to join the Phantom Thieves. That's what he did before it revealed that he was a bad guy. It was great when it seemed he was a good guy.

But the point I tried to make was that it doesn't matter that P5 uses SMT tropes quite overtly during its final act because essentially quite a few JRPGs turn into an allegorical battle between mankind and some divine entity at that point. What matters is that the ending's execution was ultimately right from a narrative standpoint as everything lead up to the final battle with Yaldabaoth. You'd have to down right ignore 90% of the game's foreshadowing (and some of it is really, really, really obvious) to honestly believe that Mementos Depths and its story arc come out of nowhere.

I understand you. Next time I'll tell newcomers the stuff yous said.

 

[Autoignition]

??? He could've been the star detective that got couldn't deal with the pressure anymore and decided to join the Phantom Thieves. That's what he did before it revealed that he was a bad guy. It was great when it seemed he was a good guy.

So... he'd be a shitty Naoto. Naoto's story was never really about detective-ing, either. It was about the extreme sexism and prejudice in the field of law enforcement and the problem of a lack of female representation in crime dramas. It was about Naoto not having any female role models to look up to and a long path ahead of her fighting to be taken seriously despite her vagina. Similarly, Akechi's character exists not really to be a detective, but to highlight the injustice and failures of the social structures in Japan surrounding bastard children -- especially bastard children of high-profile people. If you take away his relation to Shido, you take away the emotional and political weight of his entire character.

He also wouldn't fit in with the Phantom Thieves thematically, either. Every member of the party becomes a Thief in order to get over some form of abuse by an adult in their lives (except Morgana, but he's a really huge exception to that rule for a very good reason). Akechi's character would have to be entirely re-written for him to fit in and feel like he belongs; he would feel like so much of a poser and an outcast just paling around with the crew for funsies.

 

[Mediking]

So... he'd be a shitty Naoto. Naoto's story was never really about detective-ing, either. It was about the extreme sexism and prejudice in the field of law enforcement and the problem of a lack of female representation in crime dramas. It was about Naoto not having any female role models to look up to and a long path ahead of her fighting to be taken seriously despite her vagina. Similarly, Akechi's character exists not really to be a detective, but to highlight the injustice and failures of the social structures in Japan surrounding bastard children -- especially bastard children of high-profile people. If you take away his relation to Shido, you take away the emotional and political weight of his entire character.

He also wouldn't fit in with the Phantom Thieves thematically, either. Every member of the party becomes a Thief in order to get over some form of abuse by an adult in their lives (except Morgana, but he's a really huge exception to that rule for a very good reason). Akechi's character would have to be entirely re-written for him to fit in and feel like he belongs; he would feel like so much of a poser and an outcast just paling around with the crew for funsies.

Give Akechi some credit. Lol he doesn't hafta be Shido's son to be worth anything in the story.

The dude was a hit detective. Got on tv. Had tons of fans. Worked with Sae. Flirted with Sae (that alone is +100 in my book), thought the Phantom Thieves were doing things outside the law, didn't really seem to have any friends because of his job... which is why he clung to Joker.

Now let's add another layer.

Shido hurt Joker.

Akechi is Shido's son.

Akechi wanna hurt Shido.

Reveal was trash. Sorry. I just don't like it.

HOWEVER... I do like that Y-baddie gave Akechi his powers because of the "game".

 

[Autoignition]

Give Akechi some credit. Lol he doesn't hafta be Shido's son to be worth anything in the story.

The dude was a hit detective. Got on tv. Had tons of fans. Worked with Sae. Flirted with Sae (that alone is +100 in my book), thought the Phantom Thieves were doing things outside the law, didn't really seem to have any friends because of his job... which is why he clung to Joker.

Now let's add another layer.

Shido hurt Joker.

Akechi is Shido's son.

Akechi wanna hurt Shido.

Reveal was trash. Sorry. I just don't like it.

HOWEVER... I do like that Y-baddie gave Akechi his powers because of the "game".

You... didn't read anything I said, did you?

 

[Antiwhippy]

I have done serious reservations about Skechi's characterisation by the end of the game but i really don't see what's wrong with him being shido's son.

 

[StarCreator]

If anything, it's Shido that's the lazier character because Shido is literally a nobody without Akechi.

 

[Autoignition]

If anything, it's Shido that's the lazier character because Shido is literally a nobody without Akechi.

Shido's kind of the worst. What a lazy villain.

 

[Son of Cervantes]

Just popped in to ask a question about Sae - since they never steal her Treasure, doesn't her heart remain distorted (meaning she only cares about winning in court, as part of a rigged game)? Why would she cooperate with the Phantom Thieves in that case?

 

[Afrocious]

Just popped in to ask a question about Sae - since they never steal her Treasure, doesn't her heart remain distorted (meaning she only cares about winning in court, as part of a rigged game)? Why would she cooperate with the Phantom Thieves in that case?

A distorted heart means you have some extreme desires. It doesn't necessarily make you a bad person.

The Moon arcana kid had distortion as well but he changed on his own.

 

[StarCreator]

Just popped in to ask a question about Sae - since they never steal her Treasure, doesn't her heart remain distorted (meaning she only cares about winning in court, as part of a rigged game)? Why would she cooperate with the Phantom Thieves in that case?

I think it's actually a bit of a funny point, and I need to replay that section to remind me - in the plan to escape the palace, was it assumed one of the other party members was actually carrying the "Treasure" while Joker acted as the bait? In that case, Akechi would have been witness to the "Treasure" being stolen (with only him not knowing it was a fake) and thus they would have had to steal the real Treasure ASAP (right after the assassination attempt) to prevent Akechi from discovering the Palace still standing afterward.

 

[Autoignition]

Just popped in to ask a question about Sae - since they never steal her Treasure, doesn't her heart remain distorted (meaning she only cares about winning in court, as part of a rigged game)? Why would she cooperate with the Phantom Thieves in that case?

You don't necessarily have to take a treasure out of a palace to change someone. Remember, Futaba didn't even have a treasure at all. In Sae's case, because she wasn't always a bad person, it seems like just defeating her Shadow was enough.

I do feel like there's a whole subplot there that was axed from the script, though. By leaving her treasure alone, Sae was able to change without the complete and total mental breakdown of sobbing and begging forgiveness and possibly contemplating suicide like the other palace owners. It feels like there's a huge question of morality with regards to treasure-stealing that the narrative just ignores -- like, treasure-stealing is a step too far and doesn't actually need to be done, which makes what the Phantom Thieves do actually really morally reprehensible considering the effect on the palace owners.

Oh well.

Spoiler

Re-release when, Atlus?

I think it's actually a bit of a funny point, and I need to replay that section to remind me - in the plan to escape the palace, was it assumed one of the other party members was actually carrying the "Treasure" while Joker acted as the bait? In that case, Akechi would have been witness to the "Treasure" being stolen (with only him not knowing it was a fake) and thus they would have had to steal the real Treasure ASAP (right after the assassination attempt) to prevent Akechi from discovering the Palace still standing afterward.

They never dismantled Sae's palace. They had to use it to break Joker out of lock-up and fool Akechi into killing the cognitive double. And Akechi never witnessed the treasure-stealing; he stayed behind with Makoto and kind of piteously stared down Sae's Shadow.

 

[UnluckyKate]

Shido's kind of the worst. What a lazy villain.

but his boss fight is fucking ace

 

[arturo2666]

I do feel like there's a whole subplot there that was axed from the script, though. By leaving her treasure alone, Sae was able to change without the complete and total mental breakdown of sobbing and begging forgiveness and possibly contemplating suicide like the other palace owners. It feels like there's a huge question of morality with regards to treasure-stealing that the narrative just ignores -- like, treasure-stealing is a step too far and doesn't actually need to be done, which makes what the Phantom Thieves do actually really morally reprehensible considering the effect on the palace owners.

It kind of does deal with it though. That's the whole point of Akechi pre-revealing he's actually insane. Granted, they do drop the ball in the last half, but I think the point is well made that there are ethical considerations the Phantom Thieves aren't really dealing with in regards to what they're doing.

 

[boredandlazy]

Akechi wasn't actually a great detective though? He just used the Metaverse to manipulate people didn't he?

 

[StarCreator]

You don't necessarily have to take a treasure out of a palace to change someone. Remember, Futaba didn't even have a treasure at all. In Sae's case, because she wasn't always a bad person, it seems like just defeating her Shadow was enough.

I do feel like there's a whole subplot there that was axed from the script, though. By leaving her treasure alone, Sae was able to change without the complete and total mental breakdown of sobbing and begging forgiveness and possibly contemplating suicide like the other palace owners. It feels like there's a huge question of morality with regards to treasure-stealing that the narrative just ignores -- like, treasure-stealing is a step too far and doesn't actually need to be done, which makes what the Phantom Thieves do actually really morally reprehensible considering the effect on the palace owners.

Oh well.

Spoiler

Re-release when, Atlus?

Futaba definitely had a Treasure (Morgana's nose never lies) but we simply never saw it.

I don't think the narrative ignored the morality problem at all. Akechi literally says what the Thieves are doing is criminal, and hammers the point whenever possible. The fact that personality was a front doesn't make the point any less true, and the party certainly responded to it when it came up.

Simple fact of the matter is - most of the targets they went after are people who were unredeemable and uncatchable by conventional means. They also put controls on themselves - every change of heart had to be by unanimous decision - which is not something they'd do if they thought what they were doing was completely above board. Sae is really the only exception, and, as we saw, they didn't really play that one conventionally either.

They never dismantled Sae's palace. They had to use it to break Joker out of lock-up and fool Akechi into killing the cognitive double. And Akechi never witnessed the treasure-stealing; he stayed behind with Makoto and kind of piteously stared down Sae's Shadow.

I addressed the timing of when it would have had to happen, though I suppose if Akechi doesn't believe the Palace had to go away (or if the Palace went away on its own if Sae changed her own heart) then they could have just left it alone.

 

[Autoignition]

It kind of does deal with it though. That's the whole point of Akechi pre-revealing he's actually insane. Granted, they do drop the ball in the last half, but I think the point is well made that there are ethical considerations the Phantom Thieves aren't really dealing with in regards to what they're doing.

Yeah, my issue is that there's no payoff for it. Ann's the only one who ever really seems bothered by it at all, too; no one else has the crisis of conscience that she does. And then at the end it's like, "Well, at least we're not killing people, so who gives a shit!"

meh. Fumbled at the 10 yard line, imo.

Futaba definitely had a Treasure (Morgana's nose never lies) but we simply never saw it.

I don't think the narrative ignored the morality problem at all. Akechi literally says what the Thieves are doing is criminal, and hammers the point whenever possible. The fact that personality was a front doesn't make the point any less true, and the party certainly responded to it when it came up.

Simple fact of the matter is - most of the targets they went after are people who were unredeemable and uncatchable by conventional means. They also put controls on themselves - every change of heart had to be by unanimous decision - which is not something they'd do if they thought what they were doing was completely above board. Sae is really the only exception, and, as we saw, they didn't really play that one conventionally either.

I'm gonna call Mona's nose a liar, because that treasure was supposed to be in that sarcophagus and it wasn't.

The problem with Akechi's assessment of the Thieves is that, well, it's Akechi who says it. It makes all of the Thieves brush it off immediately and never even want to consider the realities of it, if for no other reason than out of spite towards Akechi. Again, Ann's the only one who really seems bothered by it, while everyone else just keeps telling her not to worry. And it's never really raised as an issue beyond Ann's own personal crisis with it.

 

[Guess Who]

Futaba's palace did have a Treasure - it was Shadow Futaba. I think they even have a line in there like "Futaba's treasure was Futaba herself!"

It's all a metaphor for learning to love yourself.

 

[Son of Cervantes]

So we assume that Sae was motivated to change on her own? I wish that had been expanded on. It just seems to come out of nowhere - if her desire to win is strong enough to create a Palace, you would think something fairly extreme would have to occur for her to have such a change of heart as to side with the thieves. Instead, the most we get are a couple of lines of dialogue between her Shadow and Makoto, which she never really responds to.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

So we assume that Sae was motivated to change on her own? I wish that had been expanded on. It just seems to come out of nowhere - if her desire to win is strong enough to create a Palace, you would think something fairly extreme would have to occur for her to have such a change of heart as to side with the thieves. Instead, the most we get are a couple of lines of dialogue between her Shadow and Makoto, which she never really responds to.

The entirety of the interrogation was working towards her changing her heart naturally

 

[PK Gaming]

I think the game itself does a good job of criticizing the Phantom Thief perspective, even if their main opponent is well, Akechi. The True End is all about activism to make a difference without having to rely on magical mind control. There's a clear progression here, since the protagonists are no longer juvenile kids who don't "get" things. They even hand off the Shido case to Sae, signifying their newfound ability to trust in adults to get shit done.

I mean one of the bad endings is literally: "The Phantom Thieves change hearts. Forever."

It kind of reminds me of Utena where certain characters just never grow up.

 

[Mediking]

but his boss fight is fucking ace

Shido's boss fight was good?

All I remember is him getting more and more buff and veins popping out his head.

And Joker not having voiced dialogue at a very crucial part.

 

[tsundoku]

Shido is a completely unhinged womanizer who would probably have knocked up plenty of women without realizing it until later

Akechi foreshadows very early on that his mom died and his father was a complete dirtbag

Akechi's fake reason for helping Shido is so obviously fake and trash and meant to make fun of the terrible Sun confidant

I guessed it in two seconds, that is the worst example of "omg bad writing" in persona 5

Its simple and predictable but its set up and has a logical flow to it that makes it easy to call out.
Its like complaining about not going to Akechi's Palace to Fix Him when Morgana flat out states that Persona users don't have Palaces

why not take the time to criticize some garbage like Makoto's confidant "WHAT IS A FRIEND HOW DO I GET A FRIEND WILL YOU BE MY FRIEND" "Oh I just have to Slap A Bitch? EZ" "I Know What I Want To Do With My Life Now"

 

[tsundoku]

Completely agree. The game starts to fall apart during the seventh castle, and by the end it's trying to outdo itself in sheer stupidity. It feels like they needed to kill a god to check that entry off the Persona checklist, so they threw something together and made sure it looked awesome without bothering to make sure it was internally or thematically consistent.

I think they should have ran with the idea that the Phantom Thieves were actually making things worse by encouraging sloth in the masses. That was the one brief glimmer of hope in that entire ending that something interesting was happening. Which, of course, they immediately discarded.

They fucking did? thats what the holy grail was? The Sloth of the masses??
Yes its fucking dumb because they rotated around all the sins at the last second, when every single calling card calls out a specific sin, and then the acheivement has a completely different sin
"Kamoshida guilty of Pride" "Castle of Lust falls" "Futaba guilty of committing great sloth" "Pyramid of Wrath falls" but the Holy Grail landed on sloth..

 

[Antiwhippy]

I think the game itself does a good job of criticizing the Phantom Thief perspective, even if their main opponent is well, Akechi. The True End is all about activism to make a difference without having to rely on magical mind control. There's a clear progression here, since the protagonists are no longer juvenile kids who don't "get" things. They even hand off the Shido case to Sae, signifying their newfound ability to trust in adults to get shit done.

Though it's literally because they can't do it anymore.

Not really "hey the things you guys are doing could lead to some pretty bad things also".

 

[Autoignition]

I think the game itself does a good job of criticizing the Phantom Thief perspective, even if their main opponent is well, Akechi. The True End is all about activism to make a difference without having to rely on magical mind control. There's a clear progression here, since the protagonists are no longer juvenile kids who don't "get" things. They even hand off the Shido case to Sae, signifying their newfound ability to trust in adults to get shit done.

I mean one of the bad endings is literally: "The Phantom Thieves change hearts. Forever."

It kind of reminds me of Utena where certain characters just never grow up.

I have big problems with this take. The true end is about activism without the Metaverse because they destroyed the Metaverse, not because the morality issue about forcibly changing people's hearts was ever meaningfully addressed.

Also - "they even hand off the Shido case to Sae" -- you mean just like they did with Kamoshida, Madarame, and Kaneshiro? The Thieves never handed anything over to anyone. All of those dudes -- Shido included -- turned themselves in, because the Thieves forcefully changed their hearts. Like, don't forget, they did change Shido's heart. They did. It isn't like they backed off and decided that it was better for the police to handle things instead.

And Joker's decision to not take Yaldabaoth's deal has nothing to do with him seeing the immorality in forcibly changing people's hearts. That's not even a factor in his decision. The issue isn't brought up at all in that moment, let alone addressed.

The game really fumbled the morality issue on this. The only characters who ever bring it up are Akechi (who is a terrible messenger) and Ann (who is told consistently by the other characters to stop worrying about it). It never goes anywhere; it's never significant; it's never a substantial part of the story; and there's certainly no meaningful discussion had about it by any of the characters that leads to any sort of self-revelation or emotional payoff and catharsis.

It just kind of hangs there. Awkwardly. And then at the zero hour, it gets fumbled into "what the Thieves do is right and what Akechi does is wrong" when, really, both of them are wrong in different ways and in varying degrees. "Well, at least it's not murder!" isn't really a great takeaway. And it's exacerbated by things like Sae's arc showing off that you don't have to steal a treasure and drive people to the brink of suicide in order to get them to change.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Eh.

I'll say that what Akechi did is kinda moooooooooore wronger.

Like in a way, changing the hearts of the palace holders is kinda like how you need to punch nazis, but there could be more done to show the real implications of having magical powers that can forcibly mold people to your own ideals that isn't as altruistic as the game shows it to be.

 

[Afrocious]

I have big problems with this take. The true end is about activism without the Metaverse because they destroyed the Metaverse, not because the morality issue about forcibly changing people's hearts was ever meaningfully addressed.

Also - "they even hand off the Shido case to Sae" -- you mean just like they did with Kamoshida, Madarame, and Kaneshiro? The Thieves never handed anything over to anyone. All of those dudes -- Shido included -- turned themselves in, because the Thieves forcefully changed their hearts. Like, don't forget, they did change Shido's heart. They did. It isn't like they backed off and decided that it was better for the police to handle things instead.

And Joker's decision to not take Yaldabaoth's deal has nothing to do with him seeing the immorality in forcibly changing people's hearts. That's not even a factor in his decision. The issue isn't brought up at all in that moment, let alone addressed.

The game really fumbled the morality issue on this. The only characters who ever bring it up are Akechi (who is a terrible messenger) and Ann (who is told consistently by the other characters to stop worrying about it). It never goes anywhere; it's never significant; it's never a substantial part of the story; and there's certainly no meaningful discussion had about it by any of the characters that leads to any sort of self-revelation or emotional payoff and catharsis.

It just kind of hangs there. Awkwardly. And then at the zero hour, it gets fumbled into "what the Thieves do is right and what Akechi does is wrong" when, really, both of them are wrong in different ways and in varying degrees. "Well, at least it's not murder!" isn't really a great takeaway. And it's exacerbated by things like Sae's arc showing off that you don't have to steal a treasure and drive people to the brink of suicide in order to get them to change.

^That's a whole lot to be upset about considering the ending was just about the cast killing an evil god and stoping its plan, the cast getting back to life now without their powers, and coming to terms that they'll have to try to make change without using such powers.

The morality of forcing change in hearts was there and discussed, but when you're dealing with what these kids were facing with their impending bad results, I don't think sitting around whining about if what they were doing is right is productive.

I personally felt what the thieves were doing was fine, so I'm not as hung up as you are.

 

[Antiwhippy]

As I've said before, for better or worse Persona 5 is very sure of its ideals and politics. Very loud and proud about it too.

 

[snow in jamaica]

Yes its fucking dumb because they rotated around all the sins at the last second, when every single calling card calls out a specific sin, and then the acheivement has a completely different sin
"Kamoshida guilty of Pride" "Castle of Lust falls" "Futaba guilty of committing great sloth" "Pyramid of Wrath falls" but the Holy Grail landed on sloth..

This doesn't happen. Kamoshida is a "bastard of lust", Madarame is a "great sinner of vanity", etc. Wrath is Futaba's perception of her mother, and her calling card in the Japanese version doesn't specify a sin, although sloth is a fit.

 

[Autoignition]

^That's a whole lot to be upset about considering the ending was just about the cast killing an evil god and stoping its plan, the cast getting back to life now without their powers, and coming to terms that they'll have to try to make change without using such powers.

The morality of forcing change in hearts was there and discussed, but when you're dealing with what these kids were facing with their impending bad results, I don't think sitting around whining about if what they were doing is right is productive.

I personally felt what the thieves were doing was fine, so I'm not as hung up as you are.

I'm not sure how "I would like this issue to have been addressed better" somehow got translated to "I would've liked all of the characters to sit around and whine about it" but okay.

And yeah, I have a big moral issue with what the Thieves were doing. Forcibly robbing someone of their will and changing their thought processes without their consent actually scares the hell out of me. It's the kinda shit that makes zombie stories so scary -- the idea that one day, out of the blue, everything that you once were is gone forever, but your meat bag is still walking around. At what point are you still you?

If I had to choose between getting murdered and getting permanently brainwashed to the point where I was unrecognizable by my peers (which is what happens when a treasure is stolen), I'd choose being murdered every single time.

The heinousness of the palace owners doesn't make it not fucked up and terrifying to me. Doubly so after Sae's arc showed us that there's a way to get those people to that point without completely rewriting their personality and thought process.

 

[rocK`]

A little off topic but feel my bro-sonas can relate. Just finished the game and now going through withdrawal. What games are you guys playing now? I tried going to ffxv and I quit about 8 hours in. Not my cup of tea.

 

[Antiwhippy]

For serious though, if you like persona but don't really like the dungeons, play Night in the Woods.

 

[Hylian7]

A little off topic but feel my bro-sonas can relate. Just finished the game and now going through withdrawal. What games are you guys playing now? I tried going to ffxv and I quit about 8 hours in. Not my cup of tea.

Try the Shin Megami Tensei series if you haven't played them already. Pretty much guaranteed to like them.

 

[rocK`]

Try the Shin Megami Tensei series if you haven't played them already. Pretty much guaranteed to like them.

I'm already pretty caught up with them. Might go into the tales series.

 

[Plums]

I mean, they do sorta address the implications the changes of heart had while in Mementos Depths? When they come across the former Palace rulers, Shido establishes the Palaces came about from him & the others having such hyper-tuned desires that it warped them to the point they needed to basically be quarantined away in solitary. By changing their hearts, what the Thieves REALLY did was just tossing them back down into what was essentially Yaldy's prison system, making the rulers figure "wow we wanted Too Much I can't believe we forgot the #Bliss from our fair and gracious god Yaldabaoth, we should just shut the fuck up and follow what the public wants."

And even if it was ethically dubious, I don't think a lot of the situations the PT fell into really left them with much of a choice besides that -- they showed that pretty well with how the Kamoshida situation spiraled out of control the minute Protag and Ryuji were hesitating on it.

plus some of those potential bad ends are real fucked up

 

[PK Gaming]

Though it's literally because they can't do it anymore.

Not really "hey the things you guys are doing could lead to some pretty bad things also".

I know, but the idea is that they graduated from being Phantom Thieves. Like, the main game had them living out their wildest power fantasy, but when they lost the ability to do that they moved on to activism. Instead of backing down and living their lives as plain old students, they're still trying to make a difference in the world. That, and the fact that the Yaldabaoth deal ending explicitly frames the continued existence of the Phantom Thieves as a negative thing has to mean something.

I have big problems with this take. The true end is about activism without the Metaverse because they destroyed the Metaverse, not because the morality issue about forcibly changing people's hearts was ever meaningfully addressed.

The morality of forcibly changing hearts will never be addressed because the protagonists fully believe that they're doing the right thing, in spite of it all. The morale ramifications are something the player has to mull over for themselves. Hashino himself makes it clear in one of his interviews.

"We wanted to leave these moral implications open to player interpretation, without presenting clear answers. That's one of the biggest things that motivated us while working on Persona 5.

But with that aside, I take back what I said about the game criticizing the Phantom Thief perspective, because that's not it at all. Instead, it's more like... the ending is about how the world doesn't need to rely on the Phantom Thieves to make the world a better place, and that something as mundane as activism can be effective. It's a sentiment the game expresses without words, during the final stretch of the game. Hell, it's something the game subtly expresses before the final mission as well:

Also - "they even hand off the Shido case to Sae" -- you mean just like they did with Kamoshida, Madarame, and Kaneshiro? The Thieves never handed anything over to anyone. All of those dudes -- Shido included -- turned themselves in, because the Thieves forcefully changed their hearts. Like, don't forget, they did change Shido's heart. They did. It isn't like they backed off and decided that it was better for the police to handle things instead.

Sorry, that's not what I was trying to get at. They went and changed the hearts of corrupt adults because they felt adults were useless and they couldn't rely on them. But after changing Shido's heartm they're fully receptive to the idea that Sae will take care of Shido's prosecution. There's a clear difference in perspective here:

Which ties back to the idea that characters (and the world) don't need the Phantom Thieves anymore.

The game really fumbled the morality issue on this. The only characters who ever bring it up are Akechi (who is a terrible messenger) and Ann (who is told consistently by the other characters to stop worrying about it). It never goes anywhere; it's never significant; it's never a substantial part of the story; and there's certainly no meaningful discussion had about it by any of the characters that leads to any sort of self-revelation or emotional payoff and catharsis.

To be honest, I don't think they needed to have a "good" messenger here. Based on the interview excerpt I linked earlier, they didn't want to give the player clear answers and the protagonists have 0 regrets about changing the hearts of their targets.

 

[Autoignition]

The morality of forcibly changing hearts will never be addressed because the protagonists fully believe that they're doing the right thing, in spite of it all. The morale ramifications are something the player has to mull over for themselves. Hashino himself makes it clear in one of his interviews.

Man, that's disappointing to me. I always hate it when writers do the hard backdown on things like this. There's storied evidence of me freaking out right here on GAF about David Cage taking a similar approach in his new game.

Oh well. It is what it is, I guess.

 

[ChasingComets]

@Autoignition, personally, I felt that the narrative made a somewhat conscious decision not to venture too deeply into the morality of their work. Yes, their actions are in the grey, and as the others have commented, the story does recognize it as such via Akechi, and various other plot beats. Yet ultimately, it's not the plotline P5 wanted to focus on, and so it resolves itself early on with (the expected) conclusion that they have to "believe in our justice", and seek justice within their personal circles. The PTs are heroic by nature, and the various allusions to superheroes and aesthetics want to make no doubt of that.

This is most on the nose in the lead-up to Okumura's palace, where the team is swept up in the wave of popularity and have an ambiguous stance on targeting him. Later on, the double entrée of needing to find Mona, and then needing to rescue Haru from her circumstances, humanizes their justification targeting him. It is a bit convenient, but that's also partly why I'm convinced there wasn't suppose to be a question to the morality of their actions.

Not saying there's anything wrong with your expectations (which I somewhat share) but this is just my two cents on why things didn't quite turn out that way.

Edit: Seems I'm a bit late, PK Gaming already brought up that interview that my wall of text is more or less iterative of.

Futaba's palace did have a Treasure - it was Shadow Futaba. I think they even have a line in there like "Futaba's treasure was Futaba herself!"

It's all a metaphor for learning to love yourself.

That's not exactly correct, and not how I would interpret it either. As you've said yourself, the treasure is Futaba. Remember that the treasures are meant to be the source and manifestation of the distortion. Her distorted desire to take her own life was a result of her self-induced neurosis in believing the lies that she caused her mother's death, as well as her spiraling anxiety ever since she was orphaned. Hence the source, the treasure, is herself.

So about the metaphor; the shadow represents her repressed desire to overcome her anxiety and believe in her logic over the adults'; this is both a narrative cornerstone for P5, and a cultural one as well. (Lightly touches on gerontocracy elements)

In this case Autoignition isn't entirely wrong either. P5 skirts around what would've happened to the treasure if Futaba never went into the palace and got confronted by her shadow. Would there have been a cognitive Futaba, or nothing at all?

 

[Mediking]

Early P5 is so good that it makes me wanna play that section all over again. Meeting Shijiro... Meeting Kamoshida... walking around school and getting whispered about... people thinking you're a criminal and a bum... finding a friend in Ryuji... meeting Ann.... SHIHO.... seeing Mishima in bruises...

Makoto following you while reading manga...

Early P5 just can't be topped.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

the idea of a cognitive futaba is terrifying to imagine

 

[RalchAC]

The entirety of the interrogation was working towards her changing her heart naturally

Yeah, I think Sae even asks Joker about it when he uncovers the whole plan to trick Akechi.

Early P5 is so good that it makes me wanna play that section all over again. Meeting Shijiro... Meeting Kamoshida... walking around school and getting whispered about... people thinking you're a criminal and a bum... finding a friend in Ryuji... meeting Ann.... SHIHO.... seeing Mishima in bruises...

Makoto following you while reading manga...

Early P5 just can't be topped.

Yeah, I agree. The beginning hours of Persona 5 are probably one of the best moments in the entire game. But I feel that it was quite hard to be able to replicate it as the game progressed.

The first arc works so well because Kamoshida is a present, real threat that endangers the main characters and their surroundings directly. He is in a position of power and Joker being expelled would have been quite a big problem.

And, honestly, even if most people don't cross the line like Kamoshida did, a lot of people probably had to endure sometime in their past a teacher that used his position of power to screw you.

It happened to me at least. I've always been a bit stubborn with what I find right and wrong. And when I was in high school, I had a teacher that drowned us with homework and stuff to study despite him being lazy as fuck and asking us to underline the "keywords" in our exams (which were the only thing he read). I was honestly uncapable of respecting him, so I always did the bare minimum to pass his subject while doing as little as I could. He definitely noticed, and when he had to give me my final marks he "made a mistake" and forced me to study to the second chance examination when I had actually passed his subject.

And he didn't told me so until the exam.

That was a week before the university entrance exams.

There definitely was a grin in his face while he refused to tell me my actual results and when he told me the truth.

 

[_Ryo_]

Early P5 is so good that it makes me wanna play that section all over again. Meeting Shijiro... Meeting Kamoshida... walking around school and getting whispered about... people thinking you're a criminal and a bum... finding a friend in Ryuji... meeting Ann.... SHIHO.... seeing Mishima in bruises...

Makoto following you while reading manga...

Early P5 just can't be topped.

I agree. The beginning brings out the feels and really simulates what it feels like to be hated for no reason.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

Kamoshido definitely works so well because he has strong ties to every character in the group (even managing to cause issues with Joker early on), and he is a constant presence. The above about how he also hits close to home for many is also very true. I texted a friend after he told me he finished the first palace and I said "What did you think of Mr. *redacted*". Some bad humor between high school friends, but that teacher at our school was the girls volleyball coach of all fucking things, and also a science teacher. He was taking blow jobs from students for access to his computer to let them alter their grades.

Took until like 3 years after I graduated for something to be done. It was always one of those things where almost every student knew, but no one knew what to do about it, or worse (as was my case...) cared.

Persona 5's framing was never going to be able to follow that up with its villains with the structure its built around. They needed to branch out away from their school and find bigger targets while introducing new villains as organically as possible and alongside new party members. With each villain basically tied to one party member, and not a constant presence, its hard t get the feeling from them that Kamoshida did.

However I don't think it was handled poorly. I like how there is an increasing presence to the villains in dungeons 2 and 3. They are bigger players in the world than Kamoshida, even if they are far less interesting antagonists, but what I like about that rising action is how when you hit palace 4 everything backs back down to the extremely personal story we get with Futaba's dungeon. She does a great job of reframing what everyone is fighting for, and she comes with her own unique and elfish reasons for becoming a member of the thieves.

Sae also adds an interesting wrinkle, as its someone we've known for much of the game, was not easily expected, had close ties to a party member, and was never the villain the other palaceholders were.

For me the high points in the game definitely were kamoshido's arc, Futaba's arc, and the ending. Beginning, middle, and end. However I liked most of what came between.

I agree. The beginning brings out the feels and really simulates what it feels like to be hated for no reason.

yea, definitely. And it does so in an organic way. The game shows subtlety here in a way that japanese media in general isnt very good at.

 

[Antiwhippy]

There wasn't anything subtle about it. The beginning was real explicit about everyone hating you and then when they revealed the reason it was because you tried to stop a sexual assault lol.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

There wasn't anything subtle about it. The beginning was real explicit about everyone hating you and then when they revealed the reason it was because you tried to stop a sexual assault lol.

Subtlety in the way its presented in that it is believable. The whispering in the background instead of up front shit. The power tripping of the principle and kamoshida. It skips past a lot of the over exposition I'm used to in these kinds of scenerios in Japanese media. I realize it's not the most logical use of subtlety, but it is how I feel about the approach in comparison to other similar stories

 

[Gorillaz]

There is nothing actually subtle about persona 5. Everything is heavy handed and telegraphed lol. The Igor thing was the only thing they played it off cool which is why it's the one twist everyone is still talking about because it was clever.