Put away your pitchfork. There's absolutely nothing I've said that warrants this. I've never even said anything bad about the month. I've now had to say that twice, which I shouldn't have to fucking do. If you were actually interested in arguing this topic out with anyone with an opposing viewpoint (which isn't me, BTW), you would fail. You're just going to isolate people with your inability to emphasize.
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Stacey Dash: There shouldn't be a BET or Black History Month
- Thread starter Ovid
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Put away your pitchfork. There's absolutely nothing I've said that warrants this. I've never even said anything bad about the month. I've now had to say that twice, which I shouldn't have to fucking do. If you were actually interested in arguing this topic out with anyone with an opposing viewpoint (which isn't me, BTW), you would fail. You're just going to isolate people with your inability to emphasize.
She sounds completely right to me I don't see what all the fuss about her is, or these particular quotes at least. Saying that though, I don't actively have a problem personally with black history month or the existence of BET, I just don't believe they are necessary and think they may actually be more harmful than helpful.
There's almost always something better to worry about and people can care about more than one cause at a time anyway. It's possible that Jada finds yhe lack of minority Oscar nominations bad as well as police violence bad.
A Link to the Past
Banned
BET and BHM are a response to unequal treatment of black people in both entertainment and history. What would you suggest as an alternative action for black people to take?
EDIT: You added more, so - how are they harmful, and do you truly think that eliminating BET and BHM would result in more representation in entertainment and history?
excelsiorlef
Member
#allhistorymatters
White history is taught more extensively and frequently in sanitized fashion.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Sure, and white people are free to start genuinely including black people in their lives and entertainment at any time now so we can get there.
excelsiorlef
Member
Ahhh yes acknowledging black folk just encourages racism. We should just ignore them and remove the one channel that gives them an honest shot to create their own work.... that'll improve things
Let me guess MLK would not approve right?
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Tells me again, without all the bs anger, what your point is with all these post? Explain it to me knowing I'm an idiot..
EdibleKnife
Member
I hope you feel the same about channels like LOGO and WE or months like Women's History Month and Native American Heritage Month or Awarness weeks for individuals that fit into a particular population (i.e. LGBT or the disabled). These efforts didn't spring up out of an attempt to split cultures but as a reaction to the status quo creating structures where the accomplishments of minorities are forced from mainstream promotion, necessitating people who want to celebrate the accomplishments of minorities to make their own spaces for that purpose.
If you were part of a group that told you that you'd all get equal opportunity to pursue your own passion project yet you kept getting pushed to the side and pushed to the side and pushed to the side each time your chance came up, at some point you're going to head off on your own and pursue your project yourself and not wait for the tacit approval of the majority.
Are there country-wide breakdowns of how often what is taught in american history?
A Link to the Past
Banned
I bet you that without this, Native Americans would be representative in society. Acknowledging their accomplishments was their biggest downfall
There's plenty of reading you can do on the subject. I'm sure someone will kindly link you to material.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
States can tailor their curriculums to a degree, but the subject matter is very much shaped by large text book buyers like TX and CA. Here's California's curriculum
http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/documents/histsocscistnd.pdf
thestopsign
Member
Upon first read, her comments made sense to me. After thinking about it for a bit, they are mostly unfounded. There is a need to recognize and learn about black history/culture, due to a general lack of recognition during a typical US students educational curriculum.
It's strange how some people actually think that things with the word black in them are exclusive to blacks.
I mean, Justin Timberlake has been nominated for BET awards including Best Male R&B/Pop Artist.
Black Lives Matter is thought to mean only black lives matter for some reason.
People even here think that Historically Black colleges only allow black student. (When I lived in Frankfort, Ky the local HBC elected a white "Miss Kentucky State University". She received 314 votes, over 100 more than her closest competitor.) A article in the Times says that "An average of one in four students at traditionally black schools in the U.S. is a different race than the one the college was intended to serve".
There are white people in the NAACP.
I just don't get it.
I mean, Justin Timberlake has been nominated for BET awards including Best Male R&B/Pop Artist.
Black Lives Matter is thought to mean only black lives matter for some reason.
People even here think that Historically Black colleges only allow black student. (When I lived in Frankfort, Ky the local HBC elected a white "Miss Kentucky State University". She received 314 votes, over 100 more than her closest competitor.) A article in the Times says that "An average of one in four students at traditionally black schools in the U.S. is a different race than the one the college was intended to serve".
There are white people in the NAACP.
(Ones that don't cosplay black people even.)
I just don't get it.
excelsiorlef
Member
Simply Sarah
Member
It's amazing when people say "But all I learned about in American history was about how anyone not white got fucked over" and seem to think that is the same thing as actually learning about non-white Americans, their histories, and their cultures beyond being victims. I sometimes get the feeling that a lot of people think black history in America is Slavery -> Civil War -> Jim Crow -> MLK! -> Civil rights -> Black people start doing things.
excelsiorlef
Member
And new textbooks skip over some of that to boot
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
So how will black people get to direct, star, and produce their own shows if not for channels like BET or OWN?
And when will we ever learn about black people in history without a dedicated month?
sssstententen
Member
I think this is a discussion to be had when we finally arrive at a point in time when they are not necessary anymore.
But they are clearly just as necessary as ever as the current racial climate so aptly is showing us.
That said instead of intelligently discussing the potential for change she goes about it in the most ignorant way possible which is probably the point.
I also find the whole "double standard" idea atrocious.
But they are clearly just as necessary as ever as the current racial climate so aptly is showing us.
That said instead of intelligently discussing the potential for change she goes about it in the most ignorant way possible which is probably the point.
I also find the whole "double standard" idea atrocious.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
A lot of white people truly see black people as a complete "other" and mistake their own exclusionary behavior as being done TO them rather than BY them.
For example, this study found that 75% of white people have ONLY close white friends.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rs-of-whites-dont-have-any-non-white-friends/
They just simply have no actual experience with black people on a social level.
It's not what I'm asking for, man. Thanks for trying though. I know that textbooks get sanitized, but I read the articles just because you looked them up for me to read.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Even if we arrive at that point in the future, why get rid of the BET channel? Like will other networks be forced to adopt the shows that are currently on there?
Like why ever want to get rid of it? What's the point? I'm black and nothing in me wants to get rid of ESPN Deportes or Univision ever! Like I don't care how good we could treat latinos in the future. Why should the goal be to get rid of those channels?
Gordon Shumway
Banned
I've heard that's all they teach nowadays..
sssstententen
Member
I completely agree with you though. Like I said in my post, it comes down to the idea whether they would be necessary or not. I would argue that the channels and BHM would actually become more historically significant as perhaps early steps towards diversification in the entertainment industry, and a respect and change in the teaching of world history, American or otherwise.
I think in regards to BHM, you could turn the concept into more of a celebration than the currently required "awareness" it almost seems like it is now. Same with BET. More that it would be a GOOD thing that it's not something necessary anymore, because diversification has become widespread and the need for a significant minority only production is no longer necessary.
Again, if that makes any sense. And like I said in that first post, this isn't even a relevant conversation for now, and that's why the comments linked in the OP are so disrespectful. The idea that it's somehow a double standard is gross.
Novel Mike
Member
See I find this interesting because I thought the idea of his meaning is that if we stop trying to identify people as a certain color or race that eventually we all just look at each other as people. It's not trying to sweep anything under a rug its more-so of just moving past the idea of race entirely, love people for people, hate people for people not because of race, sex, religion or anything else.
I have no idea if that's the right solution or not I don't think anyone can actually KNOW what will stop racism if its even possible but I think Morgan Freeman has an interesting point that hasn't really been explored.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I don't think people know what you're asking for then.
excelsiorlef
Member
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
The implication by such a thought process is that you can't identify a person as being black and treat them equally while knowing that, so you're dishonest with yourself and others about "not seeing color" in order to mentally homogenize everyone. You're erasing black history and experiences, which wouldn't be treating them equally at all.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
But then that would require me to NOT acknowledge openly what I am and where my lineage comes from. It sounds like you are talking about erasing context and history from the present day understandings of race.
Oh okay yeah that makes sense now.
Here's the thing. the bottom line. Black people, many of us, have all had that white associate who has said "Why is there a TV channel for black people, etc. Why is there a black history month, because its racist." or "It excludes. It perpetuates the memory of racism", or even, "Black Entertainment Television? Black Pride? If white people did that there would be riots." Everyone has their own variety of reply. Explaining negative space, and how the exclusion and racism had been the domain of white America that made these "ethnicity recognition" labels necessary; and while they have always been a celebration or examination of black expression and culture, it has never been exclusive or antagonistic, almost as a rule, with a few exceptions. Defense of family, self-protection, real justice are the themes, not black supremacy or science and testimony on how others are inferior and we are superior.
It was that absence of any positive representation that gave BET an advertising and entertainment niche. A lot of people get that. But even more people would much rather turn that into another weapon in their race war against black people. "Blacks are the real racists, the real segregationists". "They always sit at their own lunch tables", etc. Could be because they got tired of the blind and unintentional racism, or maybe even intentional racism that was the background noise of the world around them. Tired of not being hired to be anything other than a butler or funny service staff in media and in real life. So we created a safe space for ourselves, as usual. And that threatens some people. they want to take it away, rationalize it away, 'explain it to us' away. "Oh you stupid coloureds, don't you understand racism? Why do you keep separating from general culture?" And if we cut back even one inch, the entire thing would revert back to square one.
some people like Dash succumbed. To the hair statements, the skin color remarks, the pointing out of her 'otherness' status. She's fucking beautiful, but she's a piece of work. Usually when people say stuff like that they don't get a forum, and they don't get taken seriously. The only reason this is even anything other than another person speaking without actually thinking about anything at all, is because its a black person. Except this black person is just parroting what she's heard from her white peers again and again.
But if we're going to have a conversation, its time to redefine what it means to be polite about this.
It was that absence of any positive representation that gave BET an advertising and entertainment niche. A lot of people get that. But even more people would much rather turn that into another weapon in their race war against black people. "Blacks are the real racists, the real segregationists". "They always sit at their own lunch tables", etc. Could be because they got tired of the blind and unintentional racism, or maybe even intentional racism that was the background noise of the world around them. Tired of not being hired to be anything other than a butler or funny service staff in media and in real life. So we created a safe space for ourselves, as usual. And that threatens some people. they want to take it away, rationalize it away, 'explain it to us' away. "Oh you stupid coloureds, don't you understand racism? Why do you keep separating from general culture?" And if we cut back even one inch, the entire thing would revert back to square one.
some people like Dash succumbed. To the hair statements, the skin color remarks, the pointing out of her 'otherness' status. She's fucking beautiful, but she's a piece of work. Usually when people say stuff like that they don't get a forum, and they don't get taken seriously. The only reason this is even anything other than another person speaking without actually thinking about anything at all, is because its a black person. Except this black person is just parroting what she's heard from her white peers again and again.
But if we're going to have a conversation, its time to redefine what it means to be polite about this.
You're correct in your interpretation but It really isn't an unexplored Idea. The problem is, you can stop people from labeling themselves (black, white, etc.) but those people are the people that that already want to be equals. It does't help with the people on the other-side that want to exclude you or others. These "spaces" like BET, were created to give relief from that side of things. It's not like BET and History Months were created to exclude.
This is pretty much my thoughts. Like I get ultimately she wants integration, I agree these things do make black people stand out as "other" but it is not what makes them the other, society does that by excluding them. Representation needs to happen in history class and on prime time major networks.
That said in history class there was quite a focus on Africans in American history but never African history. But that's because history is from a very Roman, English, Spanish, and French perspective.
EdibleKnife
Member
If you can divine a way for people not to see my black skin or my friend's sex beyond transforming all of mankind into streams of data or a tincture that will make KKK members and gay bashers see everyone as grey humanoids then good on you. Otherwise the color, sex, etc. blindness idea won't work. I'll always be black. I enjoy it. I wouldnt trade it off. It's literally an inseparable part of my identity. I want to be looked at and acknowledged as black but still get respect and love. I shouldn't have to fight for it. Same for women, same for LGBTQ individuals, same for people of various religions. That variety is what makes the human race interesting and color blindness, beyond being unrealistic, is just a way to quell the beautiful fact that we even as the same species are different in fantastic ways. The backward 60 somethings like Trump shouldn't have to be taught over and over again that just because something is different does not mean it's bad. Sitting back with my hands up saying "I'm a human, I'm a human" won't suddenly get through to people who internalize that different = bad mentality. They already know I'm human, now what can be done for them to stop seeing me as lesser and appreciate that I have a right to exist and share their space despite being different because they're not going to stop seeing the color of my skin just because I stop marking African American on my documents and just put "human".
...Scatter...
Banned
I wonder how she feels about strategic butt coverings.
IrishNinja
Member
damn, BET went in
Mammoth Jones
Member
It's great in theory. But in reality "Not seeing race" just means people get to be bigots and I'm wrong if I call them out on it. Fuck that.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
WOW! Glad they did lol.
uncelestial
Member
In an attempt to explain one facet of why black-centric, women-centric, LGBT-centric things AREN'T harmful with a comparison that doesn't have to do with race, gender, or sexuality....
So growing up, I had social social anxiety. I had no clue what that was, and that other people suffered from it. All I knew was that I was shy and it made my life a living hell. I'm sure many, many people on this forum can relate. I felt wrong, completely alone, stupid, unwelcome...etc. And many people thought I was a mean, awkward person because I couldn't just "open up" or talk to them. Because I had no idea others were like this, it really just made me feel worse about myself.
But then I found out about social anxiety one day. And it turned on so many lights in my head, and I even found out famous people I admired suffered from it. Just KNOWING about these other people made me feel like I wasn't alone. It made me realize I could get support, and that other people deal with and feel the same things as me.
And it's that last part where I am really drawing the comparison. People need other people, and the support and knowledge of those who are dealing with the same bullshit you are, people that understand, is one of the best feelings in the world. You feel safe, you feel welcome, you feel like you have help, you feel like you won't be judged, and you know they are so, so much less likely to tell you to just "get over it".
And THAT is a very big reason why things like the BET, women-focused museums, etc are a good thing. It reaffirms that you are not alone.
And this is completely ignoring how absolutely necessary these spaces are when it comes to getting recognition, work, etc, or the fact that they exist because the majority told them "No" when they wanted inclusion. It honestly just blows my mind how many times this has been explained in this thread and people just refuse to get it.
Seriously, white folks who think this shit causes more segregation and that black people should just protest more and work harder (how unfair is that): If you were the minority and your race was rarely included in prestigious awards and were denied jobs in the entertainment industry because of your race, would you really prefer that almost none of your race get any awards or recognition?? Or would you prefer to have places you can go to to get recognition, even if it's mostly from your peers?
And with those places, you can hope that maybe, just maybe, other people will notice and remember, and that this can cause social awareness and help lead things to change. Because black people didn't just make the BET and then stop trying for Oscars.
So growing up, I had social social anxiety. I had no clue what that was, and that other people suffered from it. All I knew was that I was shy and it made my life a living hell. I'm sure many, many people on this forum can relate. I felt wrong, completely alone, stupid, unwelcome...etc. And many people thought I was a mean, awkward person because I couldn't just "open up" or talk to them. Because I had no idea others were like this, it really just made me feel worse about myself.
But then I found out about social anxiety one day. And it turned on so many lights in my head, and I even found out famous people I admired suffered from it. Just KNOWING about these other people made me feel like I wasn't alone. It made me realize I could get support, and that other people deal with and feel the same things as me.
And it's that last part where I am really drawing the comparison. People need other people, and the support and knowledge of those who are dealing with the same bullshit you are, people that understand, is one of the best feelings in the world. You feel safe, you feel welcome, you feel like you have help, you feel like you won't be judged, and you know they are so, so much less likely to tell you to just "get over it".
And THAT is a very big reason why things like the BET, women-focused museums, etc are a good thing. It reaffirms that you are not alone.
And this is completely ignoring how absolutely necessary these spaces are when it comes to getting recognition, work, etc, or the fact that they exist because the majority told them "No" when they wanted inclusion. It honestly just blows my mind how many times this has been explained in this thread and people just refuse to get it.
Seriously, white folks who think this shit causes more segregation and that black people should just protest more and work harder (how unfair is that): If you were the minority and your race was rarely included in prestigious awards and were denied jobs in the entertainment industry because of your race, would you really prefer that almost none of your race get any awards or recognition?? Or would you prefer to have places you can go to to get recognition, even if it's mostly from your peers?
And with those places, you can hope that maybe, just maybe, other people will notice and remember, and that this can cause social awareness and help lead things to change. Because black people didn't just make the BET and then stop trying for Oscars.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Such a great explanation. BRAVO!
Fenderputty
Banned
The only thing new I've learned in this thread, since Stacy Dash is constantly spewing terrible things, is that she's 49 fucking years old. Damn ...
EDIT: that means she was 45 in her King photoshoot ...
Damn ...
EDIT: that means she was 45 in her King photoshoot ...
Damn ...
LaserBuddha
Member
Don't you guys want an end to all of the BET-centric racial tension in our society today?
People are capable of thinking about multiple things at once.
People in Brazil famously like to say that they have no rigid racial categories because so many of them are bi/multi racial and, guess what? The dark people still get shit on. This colorblind shit is naive nonsense and doesn't address any of the actual problems related to racism/colorism.
Beautiful post!
EdibleKnife
Member
Fantastic break down Zaph
I find it strange that Colbert's show could have been so popular yet people still treat the notion of colorblindness as a solution to racism with complete sincerity. Colbert rammed that joke hard every season because of how patently absurd it was and it seems like the joke just went over some people's heads.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
What is a black history month? Is that like shark week?
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