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[perfectchaos007]

Damn is that true that only 53% of Americans pay taxes? That's freakin low. More than Greece, but still low. Going from AAA to AA just means they have lost some confidence that investing in our treasury is a sure bet. They are just saying, don't bet on America, you may not get a return on investment

 

[Open Source]

Damn is that true that only 53% of Americans pay taxes? That's freakin low. More than Greece, but still low. Going from AAA to AA just means they have lost some confidence that investing in our treasury is a sure bet. They are just saying, don't bet on America, you may not get a return on investment

Not true. Maybe true of certain types of tax (e.g., income). Everyone pays sales tax, many pay property tax, and there are tons of other taxes on utilities, hotels, cars (purchase and then ownership), air travel, etc.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Damn is that true that only 53% of Americans pay taxes? That's freakin low. More than Greece, but still low. Going from AAA to AA just means they have lost some confidence that investing in our treasury is a sure bet. They are just saying, don't bet on America, you may not get a return on investment

.... no, no no no, it's not true.

 

[perfectchaos007]

Okay I was just going off the post Y2kev was replying too. good to know more Americans than that pay taxes

 

[pgtl_10]

No, I think an author has cherry picked what he needs to backfill some narrative he dreamed up one day.

having read that site for a while I assure you that Counterpunch was never aboard the Obama train.

 

[soldat7]

Tea Party 1, America 0

 

[willmiz]

I love how Obama is in office for 3 years, yet all I still hear is "omg bush!!". It's getting old.

 

[TheExecutive]

that's not a downside...

that's just figuring out how to implement something. If we dictated policy based on "how hard it is" to implement, we'd never get anything done.

Difficulty of implimentation isnt a downside on whether to conduct a change? I dont buy that for a second.

 

[Open Source]

Tea Party 1, America 0

I'm not sure about this. If the tea party got everything they wanted, there would be less reason for a downgrade. If the Dems/Obama got everything they wanted, there would be less reason for a downgrade as well. Hooray for compromise.

 

[TheExecutive]

I feel qualified to comment on this topic not because I know anything about macroeconomics other than the talking points fed to me by my favorite pundits, but because I am heavily invested, emotionally and otherwise, in the success of my political party at the ballot box.

I will use this issue to bludgeon the other political party and ensure my political party gets re-elected.

The fact that my political party had many opportunities to fix this problem that everyone saw coming, and that fact that they will continue to do nothing substantial to fix the problem after being re-elected, are irrelevant.

<3.

 

[perfectchaos007]

I love how Obama is in office for 3 years, yet all I still hear is "omg bush!!". It's getting old.

Democrats blame it on Bush, Republicans blame it on Obama. It's always the other guys fault. always

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Difficulty of implimentation isnt a downside on whether to conduct a change? I dont buy that for a second.

Healthcare is a very real problem that puts a human being's life on the line

I hardly accept "it's too hard!" as an excuse for denying the right for someone to continue living because they are poor.

 

[TheExecutive]

I love how Obama is in office for 3 years, yet all I still hear is "omg bush!!". It's getting old.

You're avatar makes it hard to take you seriously. However, there is some truth to the statement. Bush did make it tough but Obama is having a tough time getting anything to happen.

Anyway, not wasting the rest of my friday night with you gents. Thanks for the discussion!

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I love how Obama is in office for 3 years, yet all I still hear is "omg bush!!". It's getting old.

What are you talking about?

 

[Tapiozona]

Okay I was just going off the post Y2kev was replying too. good to know more Americans than that pay taxes

Well more than half of American's don't pay federal income tax. So you weren't completely wrong.

 

[pgtl_10]

Parents feed them what is available to them. You don't understand just how dire things are. There are really practically no grocery stores around, and nothing but fatty food stores. The parents feed the kids what they can find.

Houston is one of the fattest places in America and there's grocery stores everywhere. I don't think availability is the problem as much as it is psychology. Satisfy yourself now with fatty foods rather than moderation.

I lived in Ram Allah on the West Bank for six years. People were skinny to a degree because they walked everywhere. I came back 8 years later and people have gotten fatter because they drive where they use to walk. Grocery stores and produce is in abundance and cheap.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Well more than half of American's don't pay federal income tax. So you weren't completely wrong.

But that is very very different from paying NO taxes.

 

[pgtl_10]

I feel qualified to comment on this topic not because I know anything about macroeconomics other than the talking points fed to me by my favorite pundits, but because I am heavily invested, emotionally and otherwise, in the success of my political party at the ballot box.

I will use this issue to bludgeon the other political party and ensure my political party gets re-elected.

The fact that my political party had many opportunities to fix this problem that everyone saw coming, and that fact that they will continue to do nothing substantial to fix the problem after being re-elected, are irrelevant.

I hate being invested in one party. Running a country is not like winning a game. I wish people choose based qualifications and idealology rather than who's party is what.

 

[Sysgen]

Damn is that true that only 53% of Americans pay taxes? That's freakin low. More than Greece, but still low. Going from AAA to AA just means they have lost some confidence that investing in our treasury is a sure bet. They are just saying, don't bet on America, you may not get a return on investment

The middle class always gets fucked over. Low income people pay nothing, corporations hide their money overseas and pay little or no tax. The best thing to do that it seems no one will do is a flat tax for everyone. Eliminates the loopholes and we can actually lower rates further while increasing revenue.

 

[Tapiozona]

But that is very very different from paying NO taxes.

I agree but when I think of paying taxes I think of Income tax (federal), as do most americans so we generalize and say that the other 50% doesn't pay taxes.

The middle class always gets fucked over. Low income people pay nothing, corporations hide their money overseas and pay little or no tax. The best thing to do that it seems no one will do is a flat tax for everyone. Eliminates the loopholes and we can actually lower rates further while increasing revenue.

I used to be so against this because it's a much greater burden on the poor to pay 20% taxes than it is on the rich, but now that I'm middle class and both groups pay no taxes, I'm jaded and dont care. Flat tax for the win.

 

[scorcho]

I love how Obama is in office for 3 years, yet all I still hear is "omg bush!!". It's getting old.

it's not that hard to understand why.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I agree but when I think of paying taxes I think of Income tax (federal), as do most americans so we generalize and say that the other 50% doesn't pay taxes.



I used to be so against this because it's a much greater burden on the poor to pay 20% taxes than it is on the rich, but now that I'm middle class and both groups pay no taxes, I'm jaded and dont care. Flat tax for the win.

Again, that's fine but it just leads to misinterpretations that these other people contribute nothing because they are literally paying zero taxes which is not the case. Again, it's just the fact that just because you and me know it doesn't mean it won't be repeated incorrectly a million times because you said pays no taxes. That's all.

 

[ToxicAdam]

it's not that hard to understand why.

That chart is bullshit because Obama allowed the tax cuts to continue and allowed for the wars to continue unabated.

 

[pgtl_10]

The middle class always gets fucked over. Low income people pay nothing, corporations hide their money overseas and pay little or no tax. The best thing to do that it seems no one will do is a flat tax for everyone. Eliminates the loopholes and we can actually lower rates further while increasing revenue.

Not a good idea. lower income pays a bigger percentage on neccisities than richer people.

Edit: Eliminate capital gains rates and consider it income is a much better idea. Unearned income should not be rewarded with lower tax rates.

Hedge fund managers also only pay 15% income tax.

 

[6.8]

That chart is bullshit because Obama allowed the tax cuts to continue and allowed for the wars to continue unabated.

They're still bush's policies though?

 

[Draft]

That chart is bullshit because Obama allowed the tax cuts to continue and allowed for the wars to continue unabated.

Liberals don't like those facts very much.

 

[scorcho]

That chart is bullshit because Obama allowed the tax cuts to continue and allowed for the wars to continue unabated.

policies which no electable President would've been able to realistically curtail while in power.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

The middle class always gets fucked over. Low income people pay nothing, corporations hide their money overseas and pay little or no tax. The best thing to do that it seems no one will do is a flat tax for everyone. Eliminates the loopholes and we can actually lower rates further while increasing revenue.

Except not. Do you have any proof that a flat tax "fixes everything"?

 

[KHarvey16]

The chart says total cost of new policies right on it. If it's "bullshit" they're not very good at it.

 

[Zzoram]

A simple way to reduce burden on the poor when implementing a flat tax is to exempt grocery store food that isn't processed, clothes under $20 and not tax home heating. Those things make up a much larger proportion of income spent for the poor than the rich so those exemptions help the poor the most. Rich people won't suddenly buy discount Walmart clothes to avoid paying tax on their clothes.

 

[Draft]

policies which no electable President would've been able to realistically curtail while in power.

Boohoohoo, the poor weak president.

Bush started the wars. He cut the taxes. He had the power to do that shit. What doesn't Obama have the power to end them?

 

[SoulPlaya]

policies which no electable President would've been able to realistically curtail while in power.

What? Actually bringing the troops home would have made Obama unelectable? And are you saying that Presidents should only do things that help their chances of reelection? If that's the case, then the US really is fucked, and ALL of our politicians are worthless, with the President being the biggest fuck of them all.

 

[KHarvey16]

Boohoohoo, the poor weak president.

Bush started the wars. He cut the taxes. He had the power to do that shit. What doesn't Obama have the power to end them?

Uhhhh...you're asking how it's easier for a president to enact tax cuts with a surplus versus a president not re-instating tax cuts during a recession? Gee, I wonder which would be more difficult?

 

[SoulPlaya]

The chart says total cost of new policies right on it. If it's "bullshit" they're not very good at it.

If Obama CONTINUES those policies, shouldn't he carry that burden also?

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

A simple way to reduce burden on the poor when implementing a flat tax is to exempt grocery store food that isn't processed, clothes under $20 and not tax home heating. Those things make up a much larger proportion of income spent for the poor than the rich so those exemptions help the poor the most. Rich people won't suddenly buy discount Walmart clothes to avoid paying tax on their clothes.

How is that simple? We're talking about an income tax flat tax right? So you wouldn't know these expenditures until after the tax is taken out of the person's pay and that seems like a lot of wasted resources to make sure someone didn't pay over $20 for a shirt.

 

[Kinitari]

That chart is bullshit because Obama allowed the tax cuts to continue and allowed for the wars to continue unabated.

I don't know if bullshit is the right way to do it. The chart doesn't discuss the fact that Obama wasn't immediately able to clean up the fuckups of the previous president, but that has nothing to do with new policy costs.

 

[scorcho]

Bush started the wars. He cut the taxes. He had the power to do that shit. What doesn't Obama have the power to end them?

It's far easier to start a conflict than end it (see: all of fucking history), and the continuation on the tax cuts owes more to Congress than Obama, though even he conceded only on letting the tax cut on high earners expire.

 

[Draft]

Uhhhh...you're asking how it's easier for a president to enact tax cuts with a surplus versus a president not re-instating tax cuts during a recession? Gee, I wonder which would be more difficult?

You're right, that would have been very hard. That's probably why Obama went in entirely the opposite direction and started cutting government programs.

That's exactly the right of center leadership I voted him into office for.

 

[ToxicAdam]

policies which no electable President would've been able to realistically curtail while in power.

The guy with historically large majorities in both wings of the government and sky high approval ratings had no power?

The talking points got you too, scorcho? I thought you were better than this.


It's quite easy to show our spending problems were mostly Bush's fault without being intentionally obtuse about it. Obama gambled and attempted some strong Keynesian expansion in hopes that it would help tide us over until the economy recovered and revenues would increase. It failed and now he needs to accept responsibility. So do you.


--- /// ---

 

[LegendofJoe]

Posed this question for Poligaf, but since this thread is getting a lot of attention I figured I should post it in here as well.

I've been thinking about government institutional and organizational design tonight and I was wondering if anyone here has come across research that details operational cost efficiency based on the size of the institution or organization? Basically, I'm wondering what kind of support there is for the Republican argument that social spending programs should be the domain of the states.

 

[KHarvey16]

If Obama CONTINUES those policies, shouldn't he carry that burden also?

It's completely fair to judge that burden differently for each president. Obama renewing the tax cuts and continuing the wars is not the same as Bush enacting them. Those decisions were made in entirely different contexts. Bush signed bad legislation and started a bad war, and they were his ideas.

You're right, that would have been very hard. That's probably why Obama went in entirely the opposite direction and started cutting government programs.

That's exactly the right of center leadership I voted him into office for.

What?

 

[Gaborn]

I love how Obama is in office for 3 years, yet all I still hear is "omg bush!!". It's getting old.

Reps did the same thing when Bush started in office and wouldn't let go of talking about Clinton. At some point though it gets old no matter who is doing it.

 

[scorcho]

What? Actually bringing the troops home would have made Obama unelectable? And are you saying that Presidents should only do things that help their chances of reelection? If that's the case, then the US really is fucked, and ALL of our politicians are worthless, with the President being the biggest fuck of them all.

the mental gymnastics in your post is somewhat amusing.

Obama already used Obama's killing as justification for announcing a draw down of troops in Afghanistan. that's happening, and should've happened some time ago.

what I argued against was the thought that a foreign policy isolationist who wants to withdraw all troops immediately regardless of negative outcomes is virtually unelectable. Obama inherited a shitty situation and has done his best to mediate it without rocking the boat too far. that would explain his cautious stance in the ME, his position on the Bush tax cuts, this stupid debt crisis, his health care legislation, etc.

 

[BruiserBear]

Tea Party 1, America 0

It's going to be funny watching this blame game play out with people completely misunderstanding and misrepresenting the reasons for this downgrade.

Spoiler

if the tea party got exactly what they wanted this downgrade would NEVER have happened

 

[samus4ever]

Is it me, it's like the older I get the more fucked up the world becomes? I hope its not like 2008. Is there any place to look up countries credit ratings? I'm curious about these ratings now.

 

[Gaborn]

the mental gymnastics in your post is somewhat amusing.

Obama already used Obama's killing as justification for announcing a draw down of troops in Afghanistan. that's happening, and should've happened some time ago.

what I argued against was the thought that a foreign policy isolationist who wants to withdraw all troops immediately regardless of negative outcomes is virtually unelectable. Obama inherited a shitty situation and has done his best to mediate it without rocking the boat too far. that would explain his cautious stance in the ME, his position on the Bush tax cuts, this stupid debt crisis, his health care legislation, etc.

Typo aside all Obama is proposing is taking out the "surge" in troops, not changing ANY of the troops out that were in when he took office. Frankly that's not nearly enough.

 

[GaimeGuy]

The middle class always gets fucked over. Low income people pay nothing, corporations hide their money overseas and pay little or no tax. The best thing to do that it seems no one will do is a flat tax for everyone. Eliminates the loopholes and we can actually lower rates further while increasing revenue.

good lord....

you realize that the bottom 50% own less than 1% of the country's wealth, right? 85% of the wealth is owned by the top 20%

A flat tax wouldn't do shit to solve our problems, and it demonstrates you have little understanding about basic economic concepts like marginal utillity and are grossly uninformed about the wealth distribution in the country.

Furthermore, you're advocating taxing the billionth dollar someone earns the same as the hundredth, which is not fair at all.

 

[HolyCheck]

I think the best thing I learnt from this thread was that The Bailiwick of Guernsey exists.

 

[Esiquio]

the mental gymnastics in your post is somewhat amusing.

Obama already used Obama's killing as justification for announcing a draw down of troops in Afghanistan. that's happening, and should've happened some time ago.

what I argued against was the thought that a foreign policy isolationist who wants to withdraw all troops immediately regardless of negative outcomes is virtually unelectable. Obama inherited a shitty situation and has done his best to mediate it without rocking the boat too far. that would explain his cautious stance in the ME, his position on the Bush tax cuts, this stupid debt crisis, his health care legislation, etc.

WAT

 

[scorcho]

It's quite easy to show our spending problems were mostly Bush's fault without being intentionally obtuse about it. Obama gambled and attempted some strong Keynesian expansion in hopes that it would help tide us over until the economy recovered and revenues would increase. It failed and now he needs to accept responsibility. So do you.

or, believe as I do that the stimulus was neutered to begin with and never had a shot of actually dragging us out of the abyss.

as to Obama's first year - he blew his political capital on health care legislation that was still muddied by blue dog conservatives and moderate Republicans. the Dem caucus never was and never will be the lock-step machine that Republicans had. nor are Progressives as steel-willed as Tea Partiers to blow up the country in order to wring massive policy concessions.