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[Arkage]

Lord first backed Star Citizen in 2012, the year it was announced. After that, he continued to back the project with multiple additional payments over several years. He loved studio founder Chris Roberts’ Wing Commander space sim, and he wanted another game like it. Then, as millions of dollars in crowdfunding money poured in, the feature creep began. Star Citizen grew in scope from a multiplayer game to a full-blown MMO that included—among many, many other features and modes—first-person shooter combat. That addition was a sticking point for Lord, who has multiple sclerosis and suffers from tremors that make fast-twitch games near-impossible for him to play.

“The biggest problem is that for Squadron 42, they got rid of multiplayer co-op, but also added first-person shooter as required parts of the game,” Lord said in an email to Kotaku, referring to Star Citizen’s story-focused campaign, which is the closest thing to Wing Commander that RSI has to offer. “So they added something I can’t do, but got rid of the part where at least I could have friends carry me.”

“Nearing 6 years into the 2 year project, they have yet to complete a single star system, though they promised 100 as a stretch goal,” Lord said.

Earlier this year, Lord decided he’d finally had it. He wanted his money back. Right away, he ran into a problem. Unbeknownst to him, RSI had changed its terms of service, and he was no longer eligible for a refund, because it had been more than 14 days since he’d forked over his $4,500.

https://kotaku.com/star-citizen-backer-sues-to-get-4-500-back-loses-1827666550

I've never liked the funding model of Star Citizen, and it's pretty screwed up that the most absurdly funded gaming project in history won't give refunds for something that hasn't even released. Star Citizen ignored his requests for refund/arbitration so he could only get their attention buy suing them. Star Citizen justifies their 14-day refund policy with the following:

This policy is actually very generous when compared to nearly any other gaming company—most publishers would not allow any refund at all after players have downloaded and played for several hours.

I think they forgot the part where he downloaded and played tech demos. Not an actual game. Since they haven't released an actual game.

 

[Danjin44]

I never liked kickstarter or anything similar to that. I will gladly support the game I love by buying the game once its finished.

 

[Papa]

I completely side with the plaintiff on this one. When you buy a finished product, you know what you are getting and can make an informed choice accordingly. The onus is therefore on the producer to create something people want to buy. When you back a kickstarter, that incentive mechanism is completely flipped. The issue is compounded if there is an inadequate refund policy like in this case. $4500 is a lot of money - where is the incentive for the devs to even finish the game once they have the money?

 

[Dontero]

I think they forgot the part where he downloaded and played tech demos. Not an actual game. Since they haven't released an actual game.

When you pledge money you don't pre-order game. You support devs. Those two are completely different things. Crowdfunding isn't buying games. If don't like crowdfunding you can always wait for game to retail in future.

 

[octiny]

“Nearing 6 years into the 2 year project, they have yet to complete a single star system, though they promised 100 as a stretch goal,”

Wow.

 

[Gander]

If they had released the game and made money I'd say yeah do the guy a solid but until they do they are still in the red.

 

[visiblemode]

It’s always a risk to back this stuff, but that said, I feel bad for those who invested heavily.

 

[Dunki]

“Nearing 6 years into the 2 year project, they have yet to complete a single star system, though they promised 100 as a stretch goal,”

Wow.

once mechanics engine etcis set I bet it does not take that long to do this Multiplayer was also not set before 22 or so. Also people need to understand that they never thought to get so much money in the first place at one time they also realized that they have to Stopp adding goals so they even can finish it. This is probably the biggest Projekt in the history of video games. And by far the biggest funding campaign. Th fans even asked the team to ad a 30k Tier to buy all the ships . Yes people were asking for it.

So I am sorry but if I spend so much money on a game i inform myself and make sure I will not regret this . It is his own stupidity to be honest

 

[WaterAstro]

Just never spend so much on an unproven idea.

I threw loads of money into Path of Exile, but it was at a state where I thought it was better than Diablo 3, and there was still more content to come.

I only spent $60 on Shenmue 3, and that's all for Kickstarter.

 

[aevanhoe]

I never liked kickstarter or anything similar to that. I will gladly support the game I love by buying the game once its finished.

While I agree that Star Citizen is most likely a sham and that there a lot of Kickstarters out there that are very risky - you do know that smaller game developers need support for the game most while they are developing it? Kickstarter is a way for them to avoid big publishers who may not share their vision. So if you want something made, maybe support it when that support is needed most, especially if they are asking the price of three coffees.

 

[octiny]

once mechanics engine etcis set I bet it does not take that long to do this

All speculative.

Still doesn't change the fact they haven't completed a single solar system in 6 years after promising 100, on a supposley 2 year project.

Such a sham of a game.

Feel sorry for anybody who's invested & rightfully want their money back. Hopefully he wins.

 

[Danjin44]

While I agree that Star Citizen is most likely a sham and that there a lot of Kickstarters out there that are very risky - you do know that smaller game developers need support for the game most while they are developing it? Kickstarter is a way for them to avoid big publishers who may not share their vision. So if you want something made, maybe support it when that support is needed most, especially if they are asking the price of three coffees.

Sorry, I just don't trust it. I can't justify paying just for a promise that might not even happen. Again I will gladly support the game once is fully finished and on retail or digital store.

 

[Dunki]

All speculative.

Still doesn't change the fact they haven't completed a single solar system in 6 years after promising 100, on a supposley 2 year project.

Such a sham of a game.

Feel sorry for anybody who's invested & rightfully want their money back. Hopefully he wins.

generating content is really not that difficult. It also depends how randomized they are doin this and then add certain spots on these planets. Kinda like No mans key did it for example and that was only a 10 people team. Here there are like 500 people.

 

[octiny]

generating content is really not that difficult. It also depends how randomized they are doin this and then add certain spots on these planets. Kinda like No mans key did it for example and that was only a 10 people team. Here there are like 500 people.

And we all saw how that turned out.

Yet here we are, 6 years later with a 500 man team & still without a single solar system complete.

My mind is blown.

I mean, I'm not mad cause I didn't invest a single dime into it, but man, I would wreak havoc if that wasn't the case.

It's quite clear it's not going to come out for years & evident by them constantly changing the TOS. Which goes hand in hand with a large percentage of their base asking for refunds. You know it's bad when there's a subreddit dedicated to Star Citizen refunds.

I do find it amusing they had a 2014 TOS promising a 12 month launch window. Time flys don't it?

 

[Helios]

Which goes hand in hand with a large percentage of their base asking for refunds.

And an extremely vocal minority defending everything Chris Roberts does and giving them more and more money. Really, Star Citizen should be a case study for sunk cost fallacy and a big warning sign for everyone "investing" thousand of dollars into someone's dream.

 

[Lanrutcon]

If the Star Citizen project collapses it's going to be a spectacle, and it's going to get ugly.

 

[Spukc]

Hmm i hope this game will finish in 4 years so i can buy it on sale for 15

 

[Makariel]

Why would anyone spend that much on a single game? Let alone one which is not even out yet?

That said, I got my refund for the $25 I backed in 2012 beginning of this year, after months of RSI dragging their feet and trying to convince me to stick with it.

 

[klosos]

See on one hand am pro consumer but on this occasion , i have to side with RSI . When you back any game or product on Kick starter or early access you must realize there's a chance that it wont turn out how you expected or with major delays .

I've brought Star Citizen , i think i spent £30 on the game and another £30 on a ship ( which you need to have BTW ) about 3 years ago , ive installed it 2-3 times and all i do is fly around some gorgeous scenery . Am i mad about Star Citizen not having much to do , Yes but the blame lays at my feet for pay money for a unfinished product.

I also backed kingdom Come deliverance two years before it was released , a few delays here and there maybe about 9 months in total but that was worth it. so moral of the story don't back things on a whim , looking back from now ill just back smaller , realistic projects like Darkest Dungeon , Dead cells or if Larian Studios use kickstarter for Divinity Original Sin 3.

 

[Dunki]

And we all saw how that turned out.

Yet here we are, 6 years later with a 500 man team & still without a single solar system complete.

My mind is blown.

I mean, I'm not mad cause I didn't invest a single dime into it, but man, I would wreak havoc if that wasn't the case.

It's quite clear it's not going to come out for years & evident by them constantly changing the TOS. Which goes hand in hand with a large percentage of their base asking for refunds. You know it's bad when there's a subreddit dedicated to Star Citizen refunds.

I do find it amusing they had a 2014 TOS promising a 12 month launch window. Time flys don't it?

But there is a reason for it. They had to add more and more since they always got their goals crushed. No we have even a First person shooter mode in there. this thing wenn totally out of control and even avter they put a stop to stretch goals at I think 80-100 Million people bought shit for it.

Single Player is scheduled this or maybe early next year. This is the one I am personally interested in MP was never before 2021 and they also were honest about it. I backed it back then with 30$ which was fine for me. And I am also not stupiding spending so much money on a game. I heard some people for example spend already over 20k on Path of exile XD

There is a reason why this financial concept is so popular XD

 

[Mattyp]

He should move to Australia.

 

[McHuj]

A fool and his money are easily parted. Who the hell would spend 4.5k on an unfinished product? Obviously there are a ton of morons who did this and I have no sympathy for them.

 

[Schrödinger's cat]

I'm not sure that this guy was foolish, and I empathise with his position. But being a consumer and being and investor are different things.

 

[Hostile_18]

Yeah got to side with the company on this one. If your a gamer that unfortunately can't play a certain type of game investing in a game that is still in development and via kickstarter is simply a bad idea (just wait till the final release to see if it's suitable).

If they set the precedent with this refund it would likely open up the floodgates with other backers as well.

It's a costly mistake but hopefully a lesson well learnt.

 

[Castef]

I never liked kickstarter or anything similar to that. I will gladly support the game I love by buying the game once its finished.

Ok. For some games that specific moment (“once is finished”) could not arrive without crowdfunding.
So, you are slightly missing the point.

 

[Guileless]

Hard to tell from the article, but it appears that the lawsuit was dismissed due to an arbitration clause in the ToS, not because of the merits of the claim. So his claim has to go to arbitration instead of the courts.

 

[nowhat]

Hard to tell from the article, but it appears that the lawsuit was dismissed due to an arbitration clause in the ToS, not because of the merits of the claim. So his claim has to go to arbitration instead of the courts.

Are ToS's legally enforceable in the US? My understanding is that here in the EU they really aren't that legally binding, although up to what point may depend on the member state.

 

[Guileless]

Are ToS's legally enforceable in the US? My understanding is that here in the EU they really aren't that legally binding, although up to what point may depend on the member state.

I doubt they are challenged very often so there may not be much law on the subject. Arbitration clauses in contracts are generally enforced.

I had to scroll through some ToS last night before playing NBA Playground. I did not read them carefully.

 

[BPoole]

I would never spend an amount of money I wasn't comfortable possibly losing on any sort of crowd funding. Even then I will only back things from reputable Devs like Larian. I took a gamble on A Hat in Time and luckily that turned out really well.

 

[Evil Calvin]

14 days isn't enough time to realize that the developer is taking your money and running. I would think he can still take them to court. They haven't delivered and are not sincere with where the money is going.

 

[nowhat]

I had to scroll through some ToS last night before playing NBA Playground. I did not read them carefully.

You didn't read it carefully? You know what happens?



More seriously though, no one does. This was an amusing incident - basically, PC Pitstop included a clause in their EULA that "promised anyone who read it, a "consideration" including money if they sent a note to an email address listed in the EULA. After four months and more than 3,000 downloads, one person finally wrote in. That person, by the way, got a check for $1,000 proving, at least for one person, that it really does pay to read EULAs."

(kudos to PC Pitstop for keeping up their promise)

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Kickstarting is like buying stock in the company, but the dividend you receive is the product they are able to produce. I have backed like 20 projects, and only got burned once to the tune of 45 bucks, but everything else I have backed has turned out great.

This is a boondoggle of a project though, and while I feel bad for the people who went crazy over-investing in it, it is like investing in all startups, you are going to get burned on occasion.

 

[nowhat]

This is a boondoggle of a project though, and while I feel bad for the people who went crazy over-investing in it, it is like investing in all startups, you are going to get burned on occasion.

I understand Kickstarter et al. as being an investment instead of a purchase, that's fine.

But what Star Citizen does is just in another league. Take the latest case of selling a $27k DLC package, which you can only even view if you've spent at least $1k on the project. And that's for a game that isn't even nearing completion by all accounts. That's beyond ridiculous.

 

[Fbh]

While I feel bad for the guy, can't say I'm surprised about this.

People need to realise that crowdfunding a game isn't the same as pre ordering one. I'm not against crowdfunding, it has given us some cool games. But when you pledge you need to do so with an amount of money you are ok "wasting" when the project fails, or changes scope or has changes made to it's gameplay

 

[Cybrwzrd]

I understand Kickstarter et al. as being an investment instead of a purchase, that's fine.

But what Star Citizen does is just in another league. Take the latest case of selling a $27k DLC package, which you can only even view if you've spent at least $1k on the project. And that's for a game that isn't even nearing completion by all accounts. That's beyond ridiculous.

Fools and their money are easily parted. It sounds like a sound business model to me if people are willing to spend $27k for DLC a project that isn't even close to being completed.

 

[hollowcupra]

Still crowdfunding (irrelevant of platform) needs monitoring and stronger rules. Yes in the end it's the consumers fault but that doesn't change the fact that rules must be placed to protect consumers (even if it's their choise and fault).

Shenmue III for example started as a kickstarter project and then got a publisher, did users took their money back? It doesn't feel right and someone must place rules and control checks, kickstarting (or crowdfunding in general) is about helping small teams create their vision, not helping companies.

 

[Denton]

Nobody is forced to give them money. As far as I can tell, the development is ongoing - they have around 300 talented developers working on it. Of course, if they never manage to release a working game (at least Squadron 42 part), it would be a failure of epic proportions. But nothing about this is a scam or anything like that.

But it sucks for the guy that he apparently cannot play first person shooter parts. They should have refunded him on that basis.

Personally though, I will wait for finished game before buying.

 

[iconmaster]

Consumers have already lost this battle in the US Supreme Court but I really resent arbitration clauses.

 

[Alexander DeLarge]

“Nearing 6 years into the 2 year project, they have yet to complete a single star system, though they promised 100 as a stretch goal,”

Wow.

Game has dramatically changed in scale for the better since the Kickstarter. I have no idea how many systems will be in the final game but given the mechanics at play and the level of detail found in the $160 million dollar Star Citizen versus the $2 million dollar Star Citizen, I think I'll be happy with whatever we end up getting.

Star Citizen in its 2 million dollar form exists, it's called Elite Dangerous and it's not worth playing.

I understand Kickstarter et al. as being an investment instead of a purchase, that's fine.

But what Star Citizen does is just in another league. Take the latest case of selling a $27k DLC package, which you can only even view if you've spent at least $1k on the project. And that's for a game that isn't even nearing completion by all accounts. That's beyond ridiculous.

If someone wants to spend $27,000 on ships that I'll get just by playing the game, fine by me. It's kind of like Warframe in the sense that they'll be depriving themselves of the natural progression path that the game is supposed to have (RSI Aurora and work your way up). Warframe would be much less fun if everything was accessible from the start.

I don't understand the level of outrage. That package is clearly aimed at people who can piss away $100,000 like it's buying bubble gum. I'd imagine there's overlap there. This isn't exploitative. People know what they're buying and most of what's in that package is accessible right now. Why should there be some artificial cap on what people can spend? If it's not Cloud Imperium selling the package, it'll be someone on /r/starcitizen_trades making the money and if I were one of those people, I'd rather my money go straight to the company instead of filling a reseller's pockets.

 

[nowhat]

Star Citizen in its 2 million dollar form exists, it's called Elite Dangerous and it's not worth playing.

...and yet, people are playing it, today, across multiple platforms. Star Citizen will come... any day now, right? Just need to move a couple of $27k DLC packs first, right?

 

[Sakura]

I understand the frustration with Star Citizen, but come on, this is on him. He dropped 4.5k for an unfinished game.

 

[prinz_valium]

When did he sue and at what court did he lose?
I don't see any of that mentioned...

 

[Alexander DeLarge]

...and yet, people are playing it, today, across multiple platforms. Star Citizen will come... any day now, right? Just need to move a couple of $27k DLC packs first, right?

Tens of thousands of people play truck and farm simulators. Anecdotally the same people I know who play those types of games are the only ones playing Elite Dangerous. I'm glad they have a game but it's definitely not for me and I'm willing to wait for something like Star Citizen instead of praying that Elite Dangerous survives long enough to become comparable to it. Elite Dangerous has already used up their "launch hype" and very few games are able to recover just because they keep getting updated. Even if Elite Dangerous becomes the game people wanted it to be, will even a fraction of the user base care enough to try it out when it does?

One way or another, you're still waiting for a decent feature set and I think it's really dumb that people believe that funding should have ended at some arbitrary amount or that Star Citizen should have stuck to their $2 million dollar vision even though the game has crowdfunded $190 million dollars to date. I also think it's incredibly dumb that people wanted them to stick to their Kickstarter target release date. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to have a project that's getting funded faster than they can spend it. They should take their fucking time and if it means getting a final release 10 years from now, who cares? It's accessible to everyone who put money into it now and it's pretty solid now.

 

[nowhat]

One way or another, you're still waiting and I think it's really dumb that people believe that funding should have ended at some arbitrary amount or that Star Citizen should have stuck to their $2 million dollar vision even though the game has crowdfunded $190 million dollars to date.

You are touting that $190M as something that should be applauded. I think it's something that should be derided, at this point.

Witcher 3 cost $46M to make, $35 in marketing. $81M in total. And the game was both a critical and commercial success. Here, we have $190M spent (or donated, rather), and... where's the game?

 

[Makariel]

Tens of thousands of people play truck and farm simulators.

Are you really coming with "my potential game is better than your actual ones lol"?

 

[Alexander DeLarge]

You are touting that $190M as something that should be applauded. I think it's something that should be derided, at this point.

Witcher 3 cost $46M to make, $35 in marketing. $81M in total. And the game was both a critical and commercial success. Here, we have $190M spent (or donated, rather), and... where's the game?

Let's put it in perspective. Star Citizen entered pre-production in late 2011. It was crowdfunded in late 2012. The game was crowdfunded for 2.1 million dollars. They didn't have a studio. They didn't have the people to work on the game. It was a skeleton crew. They put up crowdfunding on their site and it kept growing. Stretch goals were met to the point where it became a galactic scale immersive sim. Instead of one studio being required, they needed multiple. Most people would say "true development began" when three studios were staffed up in mid to late 2014.

As of today, they have five studios and it's still growing. 3.2 is playable (and fun) but it's limited by the lack of object container streaming/network bind culling technology to the point where they can't implement more planets and more systems because the way CryEngine/Lumberyard loads everything is all or nothing. 3.3 scheduled for Q3 2018 addresses that and if you take a look at the roadmap, you start seeing the updates becoming more content-driven with the mechanical additions becoming more and more sparse since that's what they've focused on so far while the "Coruscant city planet" is scheduled along with several other moons, space stations and relays within six months of each other.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/1-Star-Citizen

MMOs take anywhere from 3 to 7 years to release traditionally. Star Citizen in its current form has been in "true development" for less than four years, it's been playable with a persistent universe for three of them and I think it's fair to say that this is a far more ambitious project than Elder Scrolls Online or Star Wars The Old Republic which both had budgets in the hundreds of millions and both took 7 years to develop.

 

[diablos991]

Pitiful.

At this point I hope the developer fails and this ends up being a rough lesson for the industry and consumers.

It isn’t right to exploit customers this way.

 

[nowhat]

As of today, they have five studios and it's still growing.

Because as everyone ever involved in a non-trivial software development process knows, bringing more people into the fold will make the project go smoother.

 

[Alexander DeLarge]

Because as everyone ever involved in a non-trivial software development process knows, bringing more people into the fold will make the project go smoother.

This would be a good response if it actually applied to the situation. They're not throwing five studios and $200 million dollars on the $2 million dollar scope project. They're trying to scale up to meet the scope of the $200 million dollar project. Literally a hundred times larger than what it was initially crowdfunded for.

 

[ultrazilla]

Feel bad for the guy. I *did* buy in but only for like $45 when they had a "sale" on their ships very early into the alpha, beta whatever. IMO it's been a complete disaster the rest of the way. After all this time and money, I just don't see the "game" coming anything near what was (over) promised.

Anyone that wanted that "Star Citizen" experience will basically get it July 27th when "No Man's Sky" is updated to include multiplayer. It basically does EVERYTHING that "Star Citizen" "promises" to do when Hello Games patches NMS to the "NEXT" update. Full multiplayer, etc.