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[Garrett 2U]

It is an irrelevant factor in a large scale game mode like this.

Sure, a worse player may earn enough points to utilize a powerful card, but they aren’t going to be very effective with it.
On the other hand, a better player can utilize Common cards much more effectively and can snowball a huge advantage.

 

[ComputerBlue]

So, for those of you who are defending this, or even just denying that it's not an advantage or pay to win.

Watch this. 1:10 if the time stamp doesn't work.

Choose from the Assault, Heavy, Officer or Specialist classes. Each with unique abilities, weapons, and weapon attachments to give you an edge in battle.

It's right there in their own promo, right from Boyega's mouth. They ain't denying it, neither should you.

 

[NullPointer]

It is an irrelevant factor in a large scale game mode like this.

Sure, a worse player may earn enough points to utilize a powerful card, but they aren't going to be very effective with it.
On the other hand, a better player can utilize Common cards much more effectively and can snowball a huge advantage.

By that logic it should be perfectly fine if all loot crates were behind a paywall.

I mean, good players could still win with common cards, and unlocking stuff from crates isn't an automatic win button, so what would be the big deal?

Is that something you wouldn't mind seeing?

 

[Garrett 2U]

So, for those of you who are defending this, or even just denying that it's not an advantage or pay to win.

Watch this. 1:10 if the time stamp doesn't work.

It's right there in their own promo, right from Boyega's mouth. They ain't denying it, neither should you.

It can give you an ‘edge’ while not impacting the overall game.
If someone pulls out a Darth Maul card after 10 minutes of consistently dying, they may pull out a kill, but it isn’t impactful to the game.

 

[nuclearaddict]

How many would be reasonable?

I'm sitting on 10K credits right now from just playing Starfighter and Galactic assault.

You can get daily credits from doing a 45 second single player arcade mission as Darth Maul.

Let me put it this way. In the Battlefield 1 beta I hit rank 30 after half a day of playing. A year after it's release I'm barely in the 40s. The beta is sped up. The beta is not indictive of what the final games unlock system will be like.

 

[nailbombxx]

I play 2K games, I play Destiny, I play Battlefront/Battlefield, I play COD games. Never once spent an extra dollar on things that are not maps or map packs.

Still living. Still able to enjoy the games. I never got the backlash on these things, because we don't need them and don't have to pay for this stuff. Most of my friends who don't get on this board have never cared either. That's just my experience though. I'm sure not everyone agrees, but most people do not care about these things. Small, small group here on GAF, need to remember that.

Edit : I always looked at it like a fast pass at an amusement park. You pay the $15 bucks, you skip some of the line. We all ride the same ride, we just wait a bit longer. Since there are loot boxes, it isn't even guaranteed to be Pay 2 Win with there being random rolls anyway. Don't really see the point in getting upset if people want to do that.

I play the games too but it still affects you if you don't pay for them. Instead of making the game itself more satisying and compelling to play, devs are being forced to do the opposite to make lootboxes more appealing.

By that I mean, making progression and unlocking things in the game a laborious grind so that you'd be tempted to pay for a shortcut. The structure of the games are being changed (for the worse) to accomodate mictotransactions and lootboxes. A well designed game would be enjoyable to play through and through while constantly introducing new content to you to keep you hooked, without expecting you to waste time or pay to skip to it.

With your analogy, you're missing the part where the amusement park may just arbitrarily make waits in the line for the ride longer so you'd be more likely to pay extra to skip ahead. Which is literally what we've been seeing with these games.

 

[ComputerBlue]

It can give you an ‘edge’ while not impacting the overall game.
If someone pulls out a Darth Maul card after 10 minutes of consistently dying, they may pull out a kill, but it isn’t impactful to the game.

It absolutely can impact the game. If you don't think so then you haven't played the game and looked at the abilities.

 

[Spartancarver]

So, for those of you who are defending this, or even just denying that it's not an advantage or pay to win.

Watch this. 1:10 if the time stamp doesn't work.



It's right there in their own promo, right from Boyega's mouth. They ain't denying it, neither should you.

Except every one of those are easily obtainable through normal gameplay.

 

[ComputerBlue]

Except every one of those are easily obtainable through normal gameplay.

Easily obtainable through normal gameplay? Dude.

I'm done, I'm out. This thread just makes me sad.

 

[Mr. Phellps]

Maybe if the MP mode was good people would still buy it? You know- like FPS shooters? Or- you have guys like me that will buy the game but will 100% ignore the multiplayer modes so you're better off just not including it in the 1st place.

FPS shooters prioritize multiplayer over single player, hence their campaigns are largely ignored when talking about them. That's not the case with BioWare games, most people buy them for the single players experience first and foremost.
As I said before, ME3's multiplayer was a hit. And that's why it received a lot of support from both EA and BioWare. Hell, I had no issues finding a match on PS3 last year (ME3 launched in 2012). People really liked it.
And that was one EA's first shots at GaaS, and it was successful. The reason I brought ME3 up in the first place was to point out that there's no indication that Battlefront 2 won't receive significant support after release. That was all.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

Almost 30% cooldown difference between out of the box and the top tier... in a game that's all about spamming cooldowns.

Way to fuck it up EA.

What worries me more is the legendary variants that we haven't seen yet. Like the legendary versions of the Heavy's shield and impact grenade.

 

[Garrett 2U]

By that logic it should be perfectly fine if all loot crates were behind a paywall.

I mean, good players could still win with common cards, and unlocking stuff from crates isn't an automatic win button, so what would be the big deal?

Is that something you wouldn't mind seeing?

If you look at the history of Halo 5 Warzone (which utilizes the same system this does), the most significant factor for winning was the communication and team work afforded by a larger squad size.
I did a quick search for a source and found this from Sketch, 343 Industries’ community manager.

As you know, late last year the Warzone design team implemented a test changing the max number of players in a WZ Fireteam from 12 to 6. The reasoning for this test was in response to feedback and data showing that the vast majority of WZ players were entering matchmaking either solo or in small Fireteams and facing off against pre-made 12-man squads was resulting in a poor experience. Games of individual/smaller disparate groups matching against seasoned 12-man pre-made Fireteams often resulted in lop-sided victories and in extreme cases, straight up "farming" of these helpless individuals for the duration of a game. So far the test is indeed showing that blow out victories/defeats are less common and feedback from solo/small Fireteam players has been positive.

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/...ms/bbe49650-65bd-47ce-a1b3-94ae202ab367/posts

So to answer your question, it depends on the nature of the game.
With no answer regarding skill-based matchmaking, server browser or squad size, I wouldn’t worry about the competitive integrity of these cards.
There are much more important factors.

 

[LifEndz]

Well...this is disappointing. Cosmetics? Fine. In-game abilities...sigh.

 

[MADGAME]

So, for those of you who are defending this, or even just denying that it's not an advantage or pay to win.

Watch this. 1:10 if the time stamp doesn't work.

It's right there in their own promo, right from Boyega's mouth. They ain't denying it, neither should you.

Even the trailer admits it. But the apologist are going to say...but but...but you can earn everything without paying! But...but but.. but it's progression...yeah that's it...it's a progression system everyone asked for from the last game!

 

[Garrett 2U]

Even the trailer admits it. But the apologist are going to say...but but...but you can earn everything without paying! But...but but.. but it's progression...yeah that's it...it's a progression system everyone asked for from the last game!

It’s easy to complain without making an argument and mock those who disagree with you, isn’t it?

At the very least, this system is more competitively viable then the completely RNG unlocks of the last game.

The main issue is there are much more important factors to competitive viability that are missing than the impact of these energy ununlocked power ups.

 

[Kill3r7]

Well...this is disappointing. Cosmetics? Fine. In-game abilities...sigh.

I don't mean to single you out but this comment keeps coming up. Why are cosmetics fine but in-game is not? They function essentially the same way from a business perspective. The cost of DLC and season passes is subsidized by the folks who pay for lootboxes. By all accounts they are just as addictive whether cosmetic or in-game. The main difference is that in game they are negatively impacting your experience. Thus, the crux of your argument is that when they provide additional gameplay benefits at no cost to you,they are okay. Otherwise not so much.

 

[ComputerBlue]

At the very least, this system is more competitively viable then the completely RNG unlocks of the last game.

Now I'm certain you don't know what you're talking about.

There was zero RNG in the last games with unlocks.

You got to a certain level, an ability or weapon tied to that level became available for purchase which you used credits to unlock them. Credits that you got from gameplay, credits you always had an abundance of.

There was absolutely nothing randomly generated, up to chance, or any of that.

 

[Garrett 2U]

Now I'm certain you don't know what you're talking about.

There was zero RNG in the last games with unlocks.

You got to a certain level, an ability or weapon tied to that level became available for purchase which you used credits to unlock them. Credits that you got from gameplay, credits you always had an abundance of.

There was absolutely nothing randomly generated, up to chance, or any of that.

I am referring to the heroes, star ships, and special weapon tokens that were scattered in random locations around the map.

 

[MADGAME]

It's easy to complain without making an argument and mock those who disagree with you, isn't it?

At the very least, this system is more competitively viable then the completely RNG unlocks of the last game.

The main issue is there are much more important factors to competitive viability that are missing than the impact of these energy ununlocked power ups.

Maybe competitive viability is your main issue, I would argue you are oblivious as to the pulse of the larger population if you think it is a higher-ranked issue than gambling pay to win loot systems intended to prey on human impulse and addiction. That certainly isn't the main gripe I see here, on Reddit, or anywhere else.

Last game unlocks weren't "completely RNG", items unlocked by player level, using certain weapons, purchasing with credits, etc. Later in the game's life some items and weapons were unlocked via Hutt Contracts. "completely RNG" is completely false, friend.

 

[Spukc]

I would be swell if the game was free to play.
Get that shit out of my games

 

[Garrett 2U]

Maybe competitive viability is your main issue, I would argue you are oblivious as to the pulse of the larger population if you think it is a higher-ranked issue than gambling pay to win loot systems intended to prey on human impulse and addiction. That certainly isn't the main gripe I see here, on Reddit, or anywhere else.

Last game unlocks weren't "completely RNG", items unlocked by player level, using certain weapons, purchasing with credits, etc. Later in the game's life some items and weapons were unlocked via Hutt Contracts. "completely RNG" is completely false, friend.

Well when the topic is “Pay-to-Win” then yes, I’m assuming we are talking about competitive viability. Again, the insults are unnecessary.
But I agree that the gambling effect has the danger be unhealthy and addictive.

I posted a clarification of what I was addressing regarding the RNG comment.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Good to see you agreeing its cheating (p2w).

I wonder how long those races would last and how popular they would be when cheating is allowed with more money.

Lets go play hockey / football etc. and with every extra 10mil $ you give you can have 1 extra player on the field, would be so good competitions.

i agree that it's a 'pay to win' scenario.

i disagree that it's cheating.

it's not a bug, glitch, exploit or unintended consequence

it's a game mechanic and it's working as intended.

enjoy. free. maps.

 

[ComputerBlue]

I am referring to the heroes, star ships, and special weapon tokens that were scattered in random locations around the map.

They were in set locations, not random...and completely unrelated to what's actually in loot crates. But okay.

 

[MADGAME]

Even the trailer admits it. But the apologist are going to say...but but...but you can earn everything without paying! But...but but.. but it's progression...yeah that's it...it's a progression system everyone asked for from the last game!

Apologies to anyone who may feel insulted by my quoted comment. It isn't my intention to insult and wasn't directed at any person. I suppose I'm a bit passionate about predatory systems. They are bad enough on their own but hits home a bit more in a franchise I grew up with. When the defense responses become hollow echo chambers of corporate shills, I let it irritate me and let it leak into my comment. My bad, GAF.

 

[recursive]

While this sucks, haven't we known this or months? Probably the cost of making all the add-on content free. And maybe purely cosmetic stuff wouldn't have brought in enough money in their estimation.

"Pay to win" is a little strong though as others have pointed out. "Pay to have a slightly better chance to win" is closer to the mark. Shitty to do this for a $60 full retail release though, no doubt.

Better to not split hairs. Call it what is. P2W.

 

[ShdwDrake]

Not buying anything with loot crates unless it's free to play.

 

[lasrmountedmoai]

I'll happily stick to Single Player and split-screen co-op, thanks.

 

[Ludist210]

If in-game credits are as easy to earn as they were in Battlefront, then that's fine...but this doesn't sound good. I'm not saying I won't buy it, but I'll hold out.

 

[patapuf]

I would be swell if the game was free to play.
Get that shit out of my games

Nah, P2W is P2W.

It's bad game design in free games too.

 

[Slim`]

Nah, P2W is P2W.

It's bad game design in free games too.

I would agree that it's bad game design for a product you've already bought, putting higher tier cards behind a paywall for crates.

For free games like Warframe, I don't see much of an issue with even being able to buy your way into new weapons since they don't make money from downloads.

 

[comshoplesce]

Tried beta for 10 minutes, deleted.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

I'd rather dumbass shortcuts be monetized than cosmetics. Lootcrates in any form are horseshit regardless.

 

[Kiddy Dong]

The real danger is if loot boxes go the way of cosmetic DLC and become completely normalized within five years, when a generation that grew up completely accustomed to this business model can't imagine the world working any other way, and actively demands loot boxes where there are none. Say no to them now or you won't get the choice to say no to them later.

Well said. I don't want to be the grandpa who rambles on and on about the days when you had to earn your way through a game, while the grandkids beg for loot crates for Christmas. Hyperbolic sure, but food for thought.

 

[Mass Effect]

Well...this is disappointing. Cosmetics? Fine. In-game abilities...sigh.

It's interesting to see so many people who seem to think that cosmetic-only lootboxes were going to be the norm instead of "pay2win." It's not surp

People keep bringing up Overwatch, but the reason cosmetic lootboxes work so well there is because of how well Blizzard got people to be invested in the characters. Not only that, but there's high visibility of each player's character in-game, meaning you're always seeing them, usually up close, and teams are small (6v6, 4v4, 3v3, or 1v1). So you can consistently see them and their awesome new legendary skin or whatever. This is only further pushed by things like the victory screen, where you can see the winning team's characters, and plays of the game. They also have time-limited events, which basically pressures people into dropping serious cash to get them, especially when some players don't have the time to grind it out.

But in games like Battlefront and Battlefield, you're just another faceless soldier, one of 63/39 other people on the field. There's always so much else going on, you're not going to be paying attention to what skin other people have on the majority of the time. Plus there's only so much you can do in the way of cosmetics in some of these games. Like with Battlefront, Dice can't go around making whatever they want because it has to be approved by Disney, and Battlefield, it has to match the tone of the game, so skins wouldn't stand out as much. Overwatch has a ton of wacky crazy skins that get your attention (which is another reason they're so successful). Really you could have an entire discussion on lootboxes in Overwatch and why it works so well, but that's best saved for another time.

tl;dr - they aren't doing cosmetic lootboxes only because nobody would care and nobody* would buy them.

*I say this in a very relative sense

And maybe purely cosmetic stuff wouldn't have brought in enough money in their estimation.

basically this

 

[border]

**Buys Starfighter Loot Crate**

*Receives only 1 Starfighter-related item*

Man, fuck this. Even if you're okay with Pay2Win lootcrates, this system is bullshit. At least let me pay to win in the game mode I'm interested in playing. Don't make me sort through a bunch of horseshit emotes and skins for an entirely different game mode.

I can't imagine paying for a loot crate where I'm only guaranteed that 1 out of 3 items within will be relevant.

 

[BizzyBum]

Loot crates would be fine if it was just cosmetic stuff but can't stand when they alter gameplay.

 

[SprachBrooks]

Loot crates are gambling. Any game that includes them should have the corresponding age restrictions and Gamble Aware—in the U.K. at least.

 

[Falchion]

Why can't we have symmetrical gameplay anymore. I want to fight people with weapons that have the exact same stats mine do with the exact same amount of health and see who comes out on top.

 

[WillyFive]

Why can't we have symmetrical gameplay anymore. I want to fight people with weapons that have the exact same stats mine do with the exact same amount of health and see who comes out on top.

Most people are used to filling up a bar between matches, if that doesn't happen then they think it's not fun or worthwhile.

 

[Collateral22]

Loot crates are gambling. Any game that includes them should have the corresponding age restrictions and Gamble Aware—in the U.K. at least.

No they aren't because they give you items every time. Gambling does not. Might not be the items you are looking for mind you, but still guaranteed items every time.

 

[patapuf]

I would agree that it's bad game design for a product you've already bought, putting higher tier cards behind a paywall for crates.

For free games like Warframe, I don't see much of an issue with even being able to buy your way into new weapons since they don't make money from downloads.

I'm strictly speaking PvP.

PvE games like Warframe or Path of exile is a bit different.

 

[Woo-Fu]

I am referring to the heroes, star ships, and special weapon tokens that were scattered in random locations around the map.

I'm starting to wonder if random tokens wasn't better. Watching this on Twitch it looks like relatively average/bad players may never get to pull out a hero in any mode except all-heroes, because there is a limit to how many are on the field and better players will get the points earlier and stay alive as that hero longer.

I mean from a gameplay balance standpoint I'm OK with that but it seems problematic that some portion of the playerbase will never get the heroes in the non-hero-only modes.

 

[Lakuza]

Read the op and it doesn't seem like anything it locked behind a paywall and its not costing a high amount of ingame currency so I'm ok with this. Whilst I'd prefer that it was only cosmetic stuff they sold and not game altering stuff, I can tolerate it if its not giving an exclusive advantage to people paying real money.

 

[staticneuron]

Let me put it this way. In the Battlefield 1 beta I hit rank 30 after half a day of playing. A year after it's release I'm barely in the 40s. The beta is sped up. The beta is not indictive of what the final games unlock system will be like.

This is what I am worried about. Even if they slowed it down a little it will be tolerable. If they slow it down by alot, it will be a horrible move. Reminds me of the diff between BF3 and BF4.

 

[Tovarisc]

No they aren't because they give you items every time. Gambling does not. Might not be the items you are looking for mind you, but still guaranteed items every time.

Definition by google:
Gamble
1. Play games of chance for money; bet.
2. Take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

If you are seeking specific card, skin, gun, sword... whatever you are literally gambling when opening these boxes, especially if you paid € for opportunity to pull lever.

Definition of gambling doesn't say it can't give your some in return or profit on investment or even what usually is seen as gambling wouldn't be seen as such.

 

[Collateral22]

Definition by google:
Gamble
1. Play games of chance for money; bet.
2. Take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

If you are seeking specific card, skin, gun, sword... whatever you are literally gambling when opening these boxes, especially if you paid € for opportunity to pull lever.

Definition of gambling doesn't say it can't give your some in return or profit on investment or even what usually is seen as gambling wouldn't be seen as such.

I would have said that, but when I put it to a developer in regards to why a game rated for kids (FIFA) can get away with being so MT heavy with essentially gambling, thats the response they gave.

 

[Lime]

Wait there’s no class progression as before?

 

[Audioboxer]

Consumer behavior has changed (and is still changing), why wouldn't they join the party?

It's not something that can be altered overnight. But they've been moving the bar slowly all these years. People just didn't realize.

Eh, some consumer behaviour has changed. Most of us are either disappointed at all of this, or apathetic. Those that are apathetic help keep it going on.

Scratch out FREEMIUM above and replace it with... $60+ game.

 

[staticneuron]

Definition by google:
Gamble
1. Play games of chance for money; bet.
2. Take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

If you are seeking specific card, skin, gun, sword... whatever you are literally gambling when opening these boxes, especially if you paid € for opportunity to pull lever.

Definition of gambling doesn't say it can't give your some in return or profit on investment or even what usually is seen as gambling wouldn't be seen as such.

Wait there’s no class progression as before?

Except you are always progressing. You shouldn't have a goal because abilities are hidden until you get them. You would have to get that information externally about ability and how it works.

Your character levels no matter what you do. They allow you to swap out more abilities. Abilities can also be powered up. So it levels up class but abilities allow for change in playstyles.

 

[Freeman76]

This again, drama queens out in full force.