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[Spring-Loaded]

I don't know how a fictional place can be criticized for a lack of diversity.

Personally, I like big games to have a range of people and sexes from a variety of backgrounds but I don't think it makes much sense to demand that of something that was a person's invented setting.

You can criticize a class-based competitive shooter for lacking diversity in class types. You can also criticize a game with obviously human characters for a lack of apparent diversity, be it age, race, gender, background, and so forth. That doesn't harm the game, it doesn't defame or vilify the creator, and it isn't somehow better to ignore it completely because there are worse cases of the problem out there.

OP also isn't "demanding," anything so much as they are saying they'd appreciate more diversity. If there's one black dude, there would conceivably be other black people out there, and in such a deep game where you can cook breakfast and deliver it throughout town, or micro-manage your garden/love life/etc., it doesn't seem out of the question to ask for more character diversity, let alone to discuss it.

It's crazy to me that people think diversity as a concept can't exist in fictional settings.

 

[Henkka]

Kind of seems like a zero sum game trying to have "diversity" in your game. What's diverse for one person is hilarious non-diverse for another. Everyone claims a "right" to be represented in everything, but there's a hundred thousand other minorities besides blacks. If you nail that, then you have to nail Asians, then Hispanics, then handicap, trans, bi, gay, but then you're being too broad and have to represent individual cultures or people feel left out or like stereotypes... all in a single game, all in every game? Everything has to be homogenized to include a checklist that includes full representation?

Fuck, if I saw this kind of stuff as a game developer, I'd stick to Martians and demons.

I quite agree with this... I don't think it's feasible for every game to be diverse. There's racial differences, gender differences, sexual differences, cultural and religious differences, differences in ability... It's just not feasible to represent all minorities fairly in one game.

Before you say I'm just making excuses for a lack of diversity, I don't think that's what I'm doing. I think the lack of diversity in games is a problem, but there's a better way to solve it than making every game a rainbow of diversity.

Instead of every game being as diverse as possible, the set of games released in a given amount of time should be diverse. In other words, some games will have predominantly white characters, some predominantly black and so on. If you empower diverse developers, someone somewhere will make an indie game with mostly black characters, maybe one token white dude and zero asians. And someone will make a game where all the characters are asians. And that will be totally cool.

 

[Kosma]

I mean there is a difference their, race does not make much of a difference for a specific character, but it can make a difference for the audience playing the game. Not having any character that looks like them can be a detriment to minority children growing up. Though you may have brought it up already what race are you anyway?;

I'm white, but not anglo-saxon, which is like 75% of all characters.

I see what you mean about kids and it's something I think about a lot actually now that I have a daughter and how women are represented in all kinds of media and what impact that will have on her growing up with these stereotypes. Also stereotypes about her mixed ethnicity and background and how people with her surname are viewed in these regions.

 

[……forgetit]

I don't know how a fictional place can be criticized for a lack of diversity.

Personally, I like big games to have a range of people and sexes from a variety of backgrounds but I don't think it makes much sense to demand that of something that was a person's invented setting.

Like this: this fictional place clearly based on rural North Anerica lacks the diversity present in the real rural North America. There, I did it, it was pretty easy.

I'm white, but not anglo-saxon, which is like 75% of all characters.

I see what you mean about kids and it's something I think about a lot actually now that I have a daughter and how women are represented in all kinds of media and what impact that will have on her growing up with these stereotypes. Also stereotypes about her mixed ethnicity and background and how people with her surname are viewed in these regions.

I assume you live in Europe then? I'll admit I'm tone deaf to that because in the US we don't make classifications into the different types of white. If you're white, you're white usually. No one notices the rest.

 

[spineduke]

Instead of every game being as diverse as possible, the set of games released in a given amount of time should be diverse. In other words, some games will have predominantly white characters, some predominantly black and so on. If you empower diverse developers, someone somewhere will make an indie game with mostly black characters, maybe one token white dude and zero asians. And someone will make a game where all the characters are asians. And that will be totally cool.

uh..japan?

outside of the all asian game, indie devs are probably the only ones who could enable a background of an all black cast. i'd imagine most big name publishers shuddering at the idea in horror.

 

[Bboy AJ]

there's a better way to solve it than making every game a rainbow of diversity.

No one actually proposed this nonsense yet it keeps coming up as if it's an actual thing. Stop it.

 

[John Kowalski]

I noticed it too, but i was too pleased by gay marriage.

 

[akidnamededdy]

Title says "token," yet OP lists three black characters (if you include the avatar). Huh?

 

[Famassu]

Sure, but how far should we go to force "our normal" on someone elses normal?

It's very tricky.

It's not tricky at all. First of all, no one is "forcing" anything. Second, the more we make people aware of the issues surrounding the representation of certain groups of people that are severely underrepresented (or whose representation is often done badly) and if that awareness leads to more inclusive things being done, the better. If someone has lived in such a predominantly white, straight environment that they automatically create something that has very little in the form of racial/sexual diversity, it doesn't do them any harm to make them think about the world outside their white, straight bubble.

 

[Henkka]

No one actually proposed this nonsense yet it keeps coming up as if it's an actual thing. Stop it.

Oh, I'm sorry then. I guess there's a misunderstanding. But I mean, by what reasoning do you include one minority while still excluding another?

 

[Phocks]

Not everyone has experienced diversity so I'm fine with casts being homogeneous, not that I know anything about the creator.

Spoiler

Calling Stardew Valley a better harvest moon might be pushing it.

 

[……forgetit]

Sure, but how far should we go to force "our normal" on someone elses normal?

It's very tricky.

I'd make a bigger point of misrepresentation of minorities rather then exclusion. A much more valid argument.

Well here's something that might shock you, many times "your normal" is the dev's normal, they just don't think about it. Personally we run comics in the magazine I work at and our comic artist only seems to draw white characters. It's just something I noticed, yet our editorial board, which he's part of, is incredibly diverse, 3 black people, a Filipino guy, a Brazilian girl and 3 white people including him, it's just something he really hasn't thought about.

 

[Maebe]

I'd always considered Harvest Moon to be a Japanese interpretation of western style idealic farming life fantasies, the Little House on the Prairie, Darling Buds of May kind of fictional settings. Kinda like how Resident Evil was a Japanese take on western Horror fiction.

Also just because it's a fictional setting doesn't mean you have to shoe horn in a much of different races to everything. Especially in a rural setting, where the odds of large quantities for racial variety Would be very low realistically.

I mean sure, it is fiction, but that doesn't make it beholden to some ideal vision of forced racial equality when that's a world that doesn't actually exist.

Harvest Moon has harvest sprites and literal goddesses. I would not call it an attempt at realism. If this game is based on it and in a fantasy land you really have endless possibilities. Like how Harvest Moon/Rune Factory have visiting merchants or residents from fantasy China or bachelors from fantasy India.

 

[BassForever]

As someone who lives currently in a country farming community and has lived in several in new england over the years, can confirm that stardew valley is a very accurate representation of the racial demographics in these areas.

 

[Teletraan1]

I live in a predominately white rural area with approximately the same ratio of other races as this rural game. Outside of a few states like Georgia and Alabama that have a higher percentage of blacks in rural areas that is the diversity makeup that you are going to find irl in sleepy rural towns unfortunately.

Harvest Moon has had only a handful of black characters that were more likely tanned over all of its games. This independant game with a limited budget at least included a few definitely black or mixed race characters rather than just tanned sprites. So a bit of progress in this genre. Plus I believe you can mod in whatever diverse town you want pretty easily.

 

[Lutherian]

To those who don't play Stardew Valley, here is Demetrius. He's a scientist married to a carpenter.

This is his hakf-black daughter, Maru. She's into machinery and works at the local clinic.


While I understand your grievances OP, I would not consider either of these characters "token" by any mean. I'd say they're positive representations, if anything. Token black character does not feel like it remotely lines up with a well-spoken black scientist who lives in a quiet farming community.

I believe that before adding more black characters, other races should be considered. I would like to see Asian and Indian characters, first and foremost.

^ So much this. The only thing disgusting about Stardew Valley is part of the modding community, who absolutly wants to make Demetrius and Maru white people. Seriously, what's wrong with these people ?

 

[Lanrutcon]

As someone who lives currently in a country farming community and has lived in several in new england over the years, can confirm that stardew valley is a very accurate representation of the racial demographics in these areas.

Every farm should have a My Little Pony of every color, regardless of setting. The internet says so.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Why are people bringing up "well in real life rural/farming communities", in a fictional video game where unrealistic things happen?

 

[Lanrutcon]

Why are people bringing up "well in real life rural/farming communities", in a fictional video game where unrealistic things happen?

Why are people bringing up real world minorities in a fictional video game where unrealistic things happen?

Cuts both ways.

 

[Famassu]

As someone who lives currently in a country farming community and has lived in several in new england over the years, can confirm that stardew valley is a very accurate representation of the racial demographics in these areas.

So? It's not Stardew Valley: New England Farming Simulator.

 

[Sylas]

I'm mostly baffled at the people getting defensive on the behalf of a developer--who for all intents and purposes seems to be a very nice person--when it's probably just something they didn't think about. Criticism is always valid when it's not scathing and spiteful. If someone says they think the game could be more inclusive--why would you say, "Well, there are 2 black characters! So you're wrong!"

Like, seriously. Most of the time it's not something done out of spite or malice, but it's absolutely something that can bum people out. Rather than getting defensive on the behalf of someone who doesn't need a defense force, maybe listen to the people that are bringing up a lack of diversity and learn why it matters to them in the first place.

People can only get better when they know they messed something up, even if they didn't mean to.

 

[Melkezadek]

I wonder how many of the posters here would feel if they woke up in a world where 95% of the characters in games and film were black or ambiguously brown. If most character creators only had kinky hair options.

I wonder if we would still see this "stop trying to force diversity " narrative.

 

[……forgetit]

Why are people bringing up "well in real life rural/farming communities", in a fictional video game where unrealistic things happen?

Ironically real life farming communities are diverse. Even those without African American populations like Georgia, Mississippi and Alabama have large Latino populations. Bringing up real life communities only really makes the game look worse.

 

[spineduke]

Why are people bringing up "well in real life rural/farming communities", in a fictional video game where unrealistic things happen?

They're only there to counter those who argue that a fictional video game where unrealistic things happen should have a more realistic depiction of the diversity present in today's society.

Spoiler

im not serious

How awesome would it be if the hero of Star Wars was a brown Muslim? That would have changed lots of anti Muslim feelings in the world.

How did I miss this nugget? Islam in Star Wars? Can we get Darth Jesus too? Let's keep this out of videogames, to put it politely.

 

[pelicansurf]

I think it'd be totally weird there was a different race per house in Pelican Town. Maybe if the town was bigger, I'd be fine with it. I'm also brown for reference.

 

[Infinite]

Why are people bringing up real world minorities in a fictional video game where unrealistic things happen?

Cuts both ways.

The characters in stardew aren't polka dotted aliens. stupid argument

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Why are people bringing up real world minorities in a fictional video game where unrealistic things happen?

Cuts both ways.

You should think about what you write a little bit more before trying to sound smart.

 

[RichiRamjag]

There's not a single black person where my parents live, the only diversity we got is a small asian familly that owns the asian restaurant in our small town. So honestly, I don't care.

Diversity is great, but sometimes it feels like they force-feed it to you (By the way, Johnny Storm is now black ! The Ghostbusters are now all female !) just to be "politically correct", and that's a load of BS. At least the Ghostbusters movie seems awesome.

I do t get these arguments... So what? There is a ton of diversity where I live, both statements mean diddly. Adding in a more diverse cast in a game such as this isn't forcing much. It isn't like the game is based in Japan.

 

[rocketskates]

How awesome would it be if the hero of Star Wars was a brown Muslim? That would have changed lots of anti Muslim feelings in the world.


I think it's more me feeling that, yeah, of course she's black. She's the one black dude's daughter, what else would she be?

The interracial couple is the most courageous thing the dev did. It would have been easier to make it a black couple instead of interracial and I applaud that.

I don't think the developer set out to make a game that would have a worldly impact.

Comkng from a big long line of family in the farming industry in the South, all I've seen at these farms are whites and Hispanics. There's no Hispanics in this game. Should that be an issue too? Maybe the game dev is going by what he knows or has experienced in his experience or lack thereof of farming. Maybe he grew up on a farm and his only interaction with black people was the next door neighbor who was a scientist and had a white wife and mixed child?

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I don't know how a fictional place can be criticized for a lack of diversity.

Personally, I like big games to have a range of people and sexes from a variety of backgrounds but I don't think it makes much sense to demand that of something that was a person's invented setting.

You can criticize a class-based competitive shooter for lacking diversity in class types. You can also criticize a game with obviously human characters for a lack of apparent diversity, be it age, race, gender, background, and so forth. That doesn't harm the game, it doesn't defame or vilify the creator, and it isn't somehow better to ignore it completely because there are worse cases of the problem out there.

OP also isn't "demanding," anything so much as they are saying they'd appreciate more diversity. If there's one black dude, there would conceivably be other black people out there, and in such a deep game where you can cook breakfast and deliver it throughout town, or micro-manage your garden/love life/etc., it doesn't seem out of the question to ask for more character diversity, let alone to discuss it.

It's crazy to me that people think diversity as a concept can't exist in fictional settings.

 

[Famassu]

Why are people bringing up real world minorities in a fictional video game where unrealistic things happen?

Cuts both ways.

It really doesn't. That's one shitty argument.

 

[Dr. Black Jack]

I'm not saying there isn't a problem but I mean if you are going to call out a game on having a token black character, you'd better be right and in this case he is wrong.

"Your concern isn't valid because 3 > 1, have a nice day, thank you for calling the Bullshit Internet Semantics Hotline"

Seems like something that would be easy to implement, aesthetically at least.

 

[pastrami]

Why are people bringing up real world minorities in a fictional video game where unrealistic things happen?

Cuts both ways.

Because the representation of minority characters in fictional media can have a real world effect on consumers of that media.

 

[Nzyme32]

I don't really feel it is a massive problem.

Where are the Indians, Chinese, Japanese, etc etc, where are the female equivalents of each etc?! Part of the reason you dont see these complaints is because those people that ask the question are no where near as vocal as others looking out for their own respective ethnicity / sex. Quite frankly, I don't expect these to appear even though I would welcome them. However if the game did include them all, it would be in part unbelievable in its completely equal races / sexes. It might have been possible to randmoise them, but that might make their back stories a mess to deal with as well as some dialogue.

Ultimately, I don't think it is possible or realistic to always have every single ethnicity and sex in equal measure or to prevent tokenisation of certain groups when trying to appease everyone. It should be random. Unless there is a trend of a developer never having other groups, then there would be a problem

 

[Kosma]

I assume you live in Europe then? I'll admit I'm tone deaf to that because in the US we don't make classifications into the different types of white. If you're white, you're white usually. No one notices the rest.

Nationality is much more important here.

If your character is not from the country or even region you are from he might as well be an alien.

So "so many white protagonists" actually reads here as "so many American protagonists", ooh look another game where the hero is American, or at best, British. ZZZzzzzz.

 

[Kelthink]

I wonder how many of the posters here would feel if they woke up in a world where 95% of the characters in games and film were black or ambiguously brown. If most character creators only had kinky hair options.

I wonder if we would still see this "stop trying to force diversity " narrative.

What?

 

[poodpick]

Because the representation of minority characters in fictional media can have a real world effect on consumers of that media.

Can someone explain this to me or link me to something to read on the subject? Why is diversity in media so important?

 

[impact]

Nationality is much more important here.

If your character is not from the country or even region you are from he might as well be an alien.

So "so many white protagonists" actually reads here as "so many American protagonists", ooh look another game where the here is American, or at best, British.

lol

How do you people even play any game? I just beat Rise of the Tomb Raider but I'm not a 19/f/great britain so idk why I even bothered. I just can't put myself in Lara's boots

 

[spineduke]

Can someone explain this to me or link me to something to read on the subject? Why is diversity in media so important?

It's healthy for kids to have role models that they can visually identify with. Lest they think they're lesser persons because of their skin color or creed. edit: it also helps illustrate and normalize relations between peoples of different races. I'm sure there are tons of media studies out there that go into far more detail.

 

[……forgetit]

Nationality is much more important here.

If your character is not from the country or even region you are from he might as well be an alien.

So "so many white protagonists" actually reads here as "so many American protagonists", ooh look another game where the here is American, or at best, British.

Hmm...that's interesting. I see your point though, those seem like the only two places that are important to video games, or media in general. I've honestly never seen a piece of media set in Romania or Croatia, Italy and France get a little bit more love, but I feel like that's a different issue entirely.

 

[Famassu]

I don't really feel it is a massive problem.

Where are the Indians, Chinese, Japanese, etc etc, where are the female equivalents of each etc?! Part of the reason you dont see these complaints is because those people that ask the question are no where near as vocal as others looking out for their own respective ethnicity / sex. Quite frankly, I don't expect these to appear even though I would welcome them. However if the game did include them all, it would be in part unbelievable in its completely equal races / sexes. It might have been possible to randmoise them, but that might make their back stories a mess to deal with as well as some dialogue.

Ultimately, I don't think it is possible or realistic to always have every single ethnicity and sex in equal measure or to prevent tokenisation of certain groups when trying to appease everyone. It should be random. Unless there is a trend of a developer never having other groups, then there would be a problem

No one is asking for equal representation or to have every single minority ever in every game ever. In addition to having maybe a few black characters, also have a few Mexicans and maybe Chinese people in it as well. Throw in a couple of mixed race characters & maybe a gay couple and that would go a long way of offering a cast of characters that has a decent amount of diversity to feel inclusive instead of being a white boy's club, even if one doesn't personally belong to any of those minorities/groups. It doesn't have to have 40 different minorities, but let's say a game has 50-60 characters. Just having a few more minority/non-white/non-straight characters from a few different minorities than just 2 characters from one minority would go a long way to be more inclusive. That only adds to maybe 12-15 characters at most that aren't white & straight. That's not necessarily more than ~1/5th-1/4th of the number of characters, yet it would go a long way of feeling like a nicely diverse community/cast of characters.

 

[Kosma]

Hmm...that's interesting. I see your point though, those seem like the only two places that are important to video games, or media in general. I've honestly never seen a piece of media set in Romania or Croatia, Italy and France get a little bit more love, but I feel like that's a different issue entirely.

I think it's the same.

There are twice as many Germans as there are African Americans. Yet how many times is there a German characters in a game? Or is the game set in Germany that is not a stereotypical WW2 shooter where the Germans are the bad guys.

And what about Poland, Italy, Spain etc.

 

[pastrami]

Can someone explain this to me or link me to something to read on the subject? Why is diversity in media so important?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/01/showbiz/tv/tv-kids-self-esteem/index.html

Just one example. I'm on mobile, but I'm sure you can do more research yourself if you are truly interested.

 

[Lanrutcon]

I wonder how many of the posters here would feel if they woke up in a world where 95% of the characters in games and film were black or ambiguously brown. If most character creators only had kinky hair options.

I wonder if we would still see this "stop trying to force diversity " narrative.

In my country white people are the minority, clocking in at around 9% of the total population. What you're describing would be...Tuesday.

No one is asking for equal representation or to have every single minority ever in every game ever. In addition to having maybe a few black characters, also have a few Mexicans and Chinese people in it as well. Throw in a couple of mixed race characters & maybe a gay couple and that would go a long way of offering a cast of characters that has a decent amount of diversity to feel inclusive instead of being a white boy's club, even if one doesn't personally belong to any of those minorities/groups. It doesn't have to have 40 different minorities, but just having a few more minority/non-white/non-straight characters than just 2 characters from one minority would go a long way to be more inclusive.

The game already caters for same sex relationships. Your suggestion would still leave minorities that would feel left out/offended. "A few more <whatever>" is a very vague solution and I doubt it would appease everyone. It would be a step in the right direction, I guess.

Because the representation of minority characters in fictional media can have a real world effect on consumers of that media.

Ok, but how does the creator sanitise their work to prevent that? Won't this always be a problem to someone, unless there's some kind of formula that caters to every demographic?

 

[……forgetit]

I think it's the same.

There are more twice as much Germans then African Americans. Yet how many times is there a German characters in a game? Or is the game set in Germany that is not a stereotypical WW2 shooter where the Germans are the bad guys.

And what about Poland, Italy, Spain etc.

Well to be fair a ton of american characters in games might actually be German, America has a ton of Germans after all. This is an argument that hinges entirely on setting and not the actual people in the game. For all we know Star Dew Valley could take place in Poland, the only way for us to know if it it does or not is for them to tell you it's Poland. When a game takes place in a real world place I see your point, but the majority are fictional places.

 

[pastrami]

Ok, but how does the creator sanitise their work to prevent that? Won't this always be a problem to someone, unless there's some kind of formula that caters to every demographic?

I don't know, and of course. It's a tricky situation, and I don't think there is a "right" answer. I was merely remarking on your poor argument. Diversity is something we should discuss, not dismiss.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

diet racism: the thread?

I agree OP, the lack of diversity in all types of gaming is disheartening. even among those who can make an impact and help change the status quo.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I don't really feel it is a massive problem.

Where are the Indians, Chinese, Japanese, etc etc, where are the female equivalents of each etc?! Part of the reason you dont see these complaints is because those people that ask the question are no where near as vocal as others looking out for their own respective ethnicity / sex. Quite frankly, I don't expect these to appear even though I would welcome them. However if the game did include them all, it would be in part unbelievable in its completely equal races / sexes. It might have been possible to randmoise them, but that might make their back stories a mess to deal with as well as some dialogue.

Ultimately, I don't think it is possible or realistic to always have every single ethnicity and sex in equal measure or to prevent tokenisation of certain groups when trying to appease everyone. It should be random. Unless there is a trend of a developer never having other groups, then there would be a problem

Rising tides lifts all ships.

In regards to this discussion: if there are at most two black people in the game, someone asking specifically about having more black people in the game is not an act of ignoring other nationalities/races. It's a matter of "well, black people exist in this setting &#8212; why is there only one? where are their family members?"

And no one's asking for the bolded. "More diversity," or "more than one/two _____ in a game with only one/two _____ out of dozens of characters," isn't the same as asking for the same number of characters of every nationality/race/etc.

I always find it funny that the believability of diversity is hard for people to swallow in these instances, even in the most fantastical of settings &#8212; even in "realistic," settings, the player can do ridiculous, incongruous things and no one bats an eye, yet the thought of there being a contingent of people who aren't white within a game is unbelievable to some.

Ok, but how does the creator sanitise their work to prevent that? Won't this always be a problem to someone, unless there's some kind of formula that caters to every demographic?

It's not about "find a perfect way to do it, or don't do it at all." It's about doing a better job bit by bit &#8212; you don't think "I'm so overweight, but I can't find the ideal time./place/method to exercise, so I won't bother." It's a process.

 

[bjork]

I wonder how many of the posters here would feel if they woke up in a world where 95% of the characters in games and film were black or ambiguously brown. If most character creators only had kinky hair options.

I wonder if we would still see this "stop trying to force diversity " narrative.

I remember when San Andreas was coming out, seeing dummies saying they wouldn't buy it because they can't identify with a black guy.

It's healthy for kids to have role models that they can visually identify with. Lest they think they're lesser persons because of their skin color or creed. edit: it also helps illustrate and normalize relations between peoples of different races. I'm sure there are tons of media studies out there that go into far more detail.

I feel like I've always existed outside of this concept. I mean, if I need some example of a strong white dude as a lead, there are definitely plenty of those, but they always seem so boring to me. As a kid I was always into characters that were different, and that's carried over into how I create characters in games now, etc.

 

[spineduke]

Ok, but how does the creator sanitise their work to prevent that? Won't this always be a problem to someone, unless there's some kind of formula that caters to every demographic?

It's not something every game has to adhere to. It's fair to say that most games (and media) have a problem with representation. It's just a far bigger problem with gaming as TV/movies have made some (limited) headway in regards to this. The best way to look at the problem is look at gaming as a whole and see how much representation people are getting.

I feel like I've always existed outside of this concept. I mean, if I need some example of a strong white dude as a lead, there are definitely plenty of those, but they always seem so boring to me. As a kid I was always into characters that were different, and that's carried over into how I create characters in games now, etc.

If you're a black kid and every single show you watch has a white protagonist, you're inevitably going to ask yourself why is that. Are you not worthy?