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[Pocky4Th3Win]

So here is a grey area my wife found on steam. There is a Free 2 Play called The Four Kings Casino and Slots which allows users to gamble in the casino using chips, every player gets free chips daily but once out they must wait 24 hours to get refreshed but can buy chips for real money.

Now its not 100% illegal but its so questionable that it is just sleazy. The player wins nothing but people with addictive personalities could lose a lot. I normally don't have anything against Steam having F2P games but this is just low.

To add here is the developer stating that gambling is illegal in many places but because they use chips instead of direct currency its not illegal but isn't this what Casinos already do? I convert cash into chips/tokens to play at the Casinos?

Is steam blocking the game in countries that do not allow online gambling? Is it legal for valve to accept money in Seattle for gambling?

Game in question.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/260430/

Steam is making it really hard to like it these days, so many stupid things are going on with it and I doubt Valve cares as long as they get money.

 

[YianGaruga]

Is it gambling if you can't win money? Half of the F2P mobile games would be banned if that was the case

 

[benicillin]

Well you can't get your money back out of it, can you? So then they are just microtransactions.

 

[darkness_s]

...every player gets free chips daily but once out they must wait 24 hours to get refreshed but can buy chips for real money.

Now its not 100% illegal but its so questionable that it is just sleazy. The player wins nothing but people with addictive personalities could lose a lot. I normally don't have anything against Steam having F2P games but this is just low.

How is this any different from any F2P game with microtransactions? You don't win anything from those either.

 

[Orayn]

Yeah I think the inability to cash out makes this more a matter of bad microtransactions than actual gambling laws.

 

[FyreWulff]

A whole bunch of mobile and PC games skirt gambling laws with this.

I think as long as you can't get your money back out, they're considered not gambling yet.

 

[White_sox]

I really don't see how it would be gambling unless you could actually cash-out with your chips and get real monetary returns from them.

That's not to say it isn't sleezy though.

 

[blame space]

So it's like gambling except instead of improbable it's impossible to win any money. Sign me up!

 

[Cappa]

What Gray area are you referring to? It's not gambling if you can't win actual money. This is just like candy crush or games like that but based off casino games... It's not gambling whatsoever

 

[BibiMaghoo]

You could put CSGO crates, Battlepacks and a host of other things in that definition if you used it. You are gambling on its contents. No money back means it's just fine apparently.

 

[jediyoshi]

Is steam blocking the game in countries that do not allow online gambling? Is it legal for valve to accept money in Seattle for gambling?

Why are you making a distinction with this game versus any other game that allows you to buy an ingame currency? Because the action in the game is literally replicating gambling? Why would this make a difference or be affected by laws versus what other F2P games offer?

 

[Pocky4Th3Win]

So it's like gambling except it's impossible to win any money. Sign me up!

Basically, it feeds off peoples addiction.

Yes true, its not illegal because you don't ever get a return but its still gambling since you are betting on a chance, gambling technically doesn't always involve money being returned but also goods.

 

[Cappa]

Basically, it feeds off peoples addiction.
.

Like every other free to play game with microtransactions have you heard of zynga? They have zynga poker etc etc and it's all over Facebook

 

[Pocky4Th3Win]

Why are you making a distinction with this game versus any other game that allows you to buy an ingame currency? Because the action in the game is literally replicating gambling? Why would this make a difference or be affected by laws versus what other F2P games offer?

This is why it falls into a grey area. Its going to more of the extreme of microtransactions.

 

[YianGaruga]

Basically, it feeds off peoples addiction.

Yes true, its not illegal because you don't ever get a return but its still gambling since you are betting on a chance, gambling technically doesn't always involve money being returned but also goods.

You can make the same argument about any game with "consumable" microtransactions. It sucks, but people pay for it so it's the future of videogames apparently.

 

[Americanmushroom]

If you cant win monye then its basically like in most other f2p games, you pay to win.

 

[Lirrik]

So F2P is even worse than gambling: you just lose money and don't have any chance to win anything. But hey, at least it's completely legal!

 

[Leafhopper]

I gamble with CS:GO crates sometimes.

In all seriousness though this sounds just awful but, it's so bad that it just dodges those kinds of laws.

 

[jediyoshi]

This is why it falls into a grey area. Its going to more of the extreme of microtransactions.

Purely by virtue of what the ingame, mechanical implementations of its usage is? Not the fact that an indeterminate amount of money can be entered into thegame? So people buying currency in GTA or skins in CSGO are fine?

 

[Cappa]

I guess you never heard of zynga poker or millions of other similar games out there that are not gambling.

 

[Black Pewter]

It's definitely disgusting, but not illegal. It's like something Jon Wolff would do.

 

[Dryk]

I'm struggling to see the appeal of a slot machine you can only put money into

 

[Tigress]

Honestly, it's just working on the same principles most F2P game do. It's just more honest about what it's doing.

 

[hamchan]

CSGO and Dota chests are pretty much gambling.

 

[Beardz]

This is why it falls into a grey area. Its going to more of the extreme of microtransactions.

Do you have some numbers / research to back your claim?

 

[jroc74]

I'm struggling to see the appeal of a slot machine you can only put money into

Exactly. Free chips I understand....but buying more chips?

And...I think this qualifies as a thread backfire.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Basically, it feeds off peoples addiction.

Yes true, its not illegal because you don't ever get a return but its still gambling since you are betting on a chance, gambling technically doesn't always involve money being returned but also goods.

Name me a free to play game that doesn't fall under this banner?

 

[baterism]

I just wondering it would be pretty rad if someone made a game for Steam which consist of nothing but wrapped Salty Bets with leader boards.

 

[Hendrick's]

It's only illegal if you can win. It's fine if you can only lose.

Go figure.

 

[Nyoro SF]

So F2P is even worse than gambling: you just lose money and don't have any chance to win anything. But hey, at least it's completely legal!

Honestly I expect a government crackdown on it in the near future.

 

[inky]

A whole bunch of mobile and PC games skirt gambling laws with this.

I think as long as you can't get your money back out, they're considered not gambling yet.

Correct. It is still pretty scummy.

And it is obvious that the gambling industry has been taking notice of games and gamers for a while now. It's becoming common on twitch to see high profile streamers sponsored by gambling sites and having live playing poker or blackjack etc. events with them to make the front page.

So F2P is even worse than gambling: you just lose money and don't have any chance to win anything. But hey, at least it's completely legal!

And to top it off, it is aimed at a very young population of players. Needs to be regulated soon imo.

 

[cooljeanius]

Honestly I expect a government crackdown on it in the near future.

How would lawmakers even go about re-writing current anti-gambling legislation in a way that cracks down on the games we're offended by here, without also catching games that we'd consider to be "more acceptable" in its net?

 

[rhandino]

Is it gambling if you can't win money? Half of the F2P mobile games would be banned if that was the case

Kiiii, Pachinko modus operandi in a nutshell...

 

[YianGaruga]

How would lawmakers even go about re-writing current anti-gambling legislation in a way that cracks down on the games we're offended by here, without also catching games that we'd consider to be "more acceptable" in its net?

What do you consider to be "more acceptable"?

Kiiii, Pachinko modus operandi in a nutshell...

Well you can win things that have a real value at least

 

[Zomba13]

Seems like standard F2P shit. You get a small amount of thing daily and run out of it fast then have to either wait for more thing or spend real money for thing to keep playing. If player doesn't get their money back or can't cash out thing into money then it's not gambling but just normal, everyday F2P bullshit.

 

[Stevey]

Since when has gambling been illegal?

 

[chronic_archaic]

You can do more than just gamble crates in CSGO and Dota

csgolounge.com and dota2lounge.com

People will bet stupid amounts on some of those games. Only ever put $5 of real money into it - it's a lot of fun if you don't mind inevitably losing all your skins

 

[LewieP]

Aside from the theme of the game, this is pretty much the exact same way many f2p games operate.

 

[Nyoro SF]

Since when has gambling been illegal?

It's not illegal, but highly regulated.

How would lawmakers even go about re-writing current anti-gambling legislation in a way that cracks down on the games we're offended by here, without also catching games that we'd consider to be "more acceptable" in its net?

Not sure what more acceptable could possibly be, can't think of a game where I have to pay real money to get fake money to put in virtual slot machines that I would miss

 

[MUnited83]

CS:GO cases are much more gambling than this is.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

Since when has gambling been illegal?

The answer to this question depends on which country you are asking about. Many countries will send you to jail for gambling at all, fine you, or much worse. Think lashes.

In North Korea, only tourists are allowed to gamble for example. In the Vatican, no one is.

 

[Haunted]

I actually have no idea about gambling laws in my own country, but it seems pretty clear cut that this isn't gambling, because you can't cash out. Even if it's using the same psychological hooks as actual gambling, if you just pay in and can't cash out, it's gaming, not gambling.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Is it gambling if you can't win money? Half of the F2P mobile games would be banned if that was the case

They should be banned too :\
Kids can't play a game these days without it introducing them to some vile gambling loop
(loot boxes/box keys etc for real money)

 

[DorkyMohr]

It's hard to imagine the full scope of trying to regulate F2P, it could get very messy. Or even trying to determine what game are felt to be "doing it right." I've spent plenty of money on CS:GO and I justify it by telling myself that I like the game and that the continued support for it isn't free either. But at the same time I know that there's not any inherit value in the money sinks. And I look at stuff that I think has even less worth and it's still getting by just fine on people who are willing to fork over money for digital garbage. Surely that's deserving of some scrutiny?

 

[Koren]

Since when has gambling been illegal?

As it has been said, it depends on the country. I think most of them have regulations to some extend. In an effort against gambling, Greece even passed laws that makes video games illegal in public places (and that was including non-gambling games in cyber-cafes).

Online gambling games will indeed be illegal in a lot of countries (most?).

But this is not a case of online gambling, and I'm not sure it's worse than a lot of F2P.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

Steam is making it really hard to like it these days, so many stupid things are going on with it and I doubt Valve cares as long as they get money.

Well....I disagree.

 

[Bytes]

To paraphrase that evil guy from Rush Hour 2:

"Imagine a business where people give you money and you give them back......nothing at all. Now THAT'S the real American Dream!"

 

[chrominance]

Basically, it feeds off peoples addiction.

Yes true, its not illegal because you don't ever get a return but its still gambling since you are betting on a chance, gambling technically doesn't always involve money being returned but also goods.

Two things: one, as far as I can tell you don't get anything back from the game. There's no way to cash out, you don't earn any goods outside the game. Two, if we extended the definition of gambling to fit this game we'd probably have to include a whole slew of other F2P games. There is some vague precedent for this--Japan has outlawed certain types of randomized microtransaction loot specifically because it encouraged gambling-style behaviors.

Kiiii, Pachinko modus operandi in a nutshell...

Except pachinko exploits a loophole where you cash out in a different place than the pachinko hall itself. It's still basically gambling, except you have to walk a bunch of tokens down the street. This has no return at all besides the psychological, from what I can see.

 

[vagabondarts]

Is it gambling if you can't win money? Half of the F2P mobile games would be banned if that was the case

And we are done here. Came to post this.

 

[TouchMyBox]

I guess you never heard of zynga poker or millions of other similar games out there that are not gambling.

How has nobody made a Shocking Interview with Zynga Poker Developer youtube video?

"The CEO comes into the room, tells us to bring online gambling to phones! 'We'll be rich!' he said"

"I told him, 'what if we make an online poker game, where people can buy chips, but they can't cash them out?'. 'That's stupid' he said, 'Nobody is stupid enough to fall for that'."

"Well, I went ahead and made the game the game anyway, and here's the best part, it works!"

"People can't get enough of it, we're number one on the App Store and on Google Play, We're making more money than actual gaming sites!"

"The stupid idiots don't even realize that we're stealing from them! They love it! We take their money, and then they rate us 5 stars!"

"They sends invites to all of their friends to give us their money too!"

etc.