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[GrizzleBoy]

I won't say I do not believe in god, but some stuff in holy books is nonsensical.

Why create imperfect beings in Adam and Eve, put them in a garden of Eden where an evil serpent exists that could tempt them...... then when they are tempted by said serpent I'm assuming an all seeing and all kne God was quite sure was there...... you punish the entire earth and every species till....... whenever you feel like not punishing them anymore?

Is there really a time or place, universe, where that could make sense?

Doesnt that make humanity a failed experiment? Do you blame the car when it malfunctions, or do you blame those responsible for the botched creation?

We were already a failed experiment the second Eve bit the apple. But instead of just peacefully ending the experiment, you pick them up by the scruff of the neck and leave them to toil and struggle for thousands of years till you decide to come and clean up?

Maybe instead of kicking out your imperfect creations and making us toil for thousands of years, you could have jUST removed the evil serpent that as the creator of all things, you were responsible for having around your children.

Isn't that for a god that is supposed to be the definition of compassion, total bullshit?

 

[VanMardigan]

This would have been a good time to think of one.

I was being facetious, of course. I have thought and read a lot on the subject. The trouble arises when you are faced with a post like this:

More like 'but there's insects that eat the human eye and bone cancer in children"
Can you present an interesting counter-argument?

So, what does this mean:

1. The poster has never encountered a single argument against the problem of evil OR

2. The poster has encountered arguments from sources, such as atheist blogs/message boards/family members, that distill the actual counter arguments into absurdities or don't present the counter arguments responsibly

3. The poster has read the vast, extensive literature from theist philosophers, theologians, etc. on the subject of the problem of evil and hasn't identified an "interesting" counter argument.

I just don't know. But that would certainly be helpful if I'm going to spend time actually pointing to resources.

You could just post a link. Or say what you mean.

I asked you more directly earlier, but see above. Where are you on that scale? What have you already read on the topic? It would help before I point you to a link.

Absolutely.

But then we get into the debate about omnipotence, and if this god is all powerful then why the need for a test, etc...

Perfectly happy to debate it if they say he's imperfect and governed by rules too. If he's all powerful then he's a lunatic.

Your second point has also been extensively covered in theist literature, part of it is you created a false dilemma. It certainly is also true that there is genuine debate regarding what omnipotent means, as pointed out by the mod in the previous page. Can God create a square triangle? etc.

 

[Audioboxer]

If you want to see Fry speak eloquently watch him at Harvard discussing Humanism. Think he comes on near the end of video 2 or 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYXE880EJ2s

edit: It's 3 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r11uE31HJ0s#t=605

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

I don't really understand the support this video is getting, Fry just gave the typical answer any Atheist (myself included) would give.

It's easy to say "Fair enough, but I've heard it all before" but many people haven't, at least not as eloquently put as Fry. I'm seeing it being spread all over my Facebook by people who don't usually give a shit because Fry is a huge name in the UK. If they see a Dawkins or a Hitchens video linked, even if they're saying the same things, they won't click it because they don't know the name.

 

[leadbelly]

If you want to see Fry speak eloquently watch him at Harvard discussing Humanism. Think he comes on near the end of video 2 or 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYXE880EJ2s

edit: It's 3 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r11uE31HJ0s#t=605

Ugh. I hate when people cut videos up into small parts like this.

 

[Audioboxer]

On the notion of an afterlife this is also one of my favourite debates with Hitchen and Harris - Probably because those arguing for are genuinely intelligent and witty for once

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbzd6ZbCowY

 

[Liquid Helium]

I'm an atheist... But I always thought the answer to "why does God allow suffering" is plainly obvious.

Try writing a story without conflict.

Try programming a game without obstacles and fail conditions.

Duh.

But that doesn't address the indifference of suffering between people, if you need suffering to be happy and engaged or whatever why didn't god create a world were everyone suffers the minimum they need in order to be happy. There are people who are born to well off families in well off parts of the world who live happy lives and the most they will ever suffer is that their marriage breaks down or they get cancer when they are old or whatever. And meanwhile there are people in other places in the world who suffer more than the above ever will in their lives on a day to day basis: living in extreme poverty, suffering from horrible illnesses without proper treatment, no access to basic needs. Their quality of life is so much worse, through no fault of their own.

 

[Zakalwe]

I'm an atheist... But I always thought the answer to "why does God allow suffering" is plainly obvious.

Try writing a story without conflict.

Try programming a game without obstacles and fail conditions.

Duh.

As I said, limited Human perception reasons this.

These things aren't required for beings to exist. This is just how our current existence works.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I'm an atheist... But I always thought the answer to "why does God allow suffering" is plainly obvious.

Try writing a story without conflict.

Try programming a game without obstacles and fail conditions.

Duh.

I see what you're getting at. But God just would have made us slightly different to where we found stories without conflict to be entertaining or games with obstacles and fail conditions to be fun. As we are now, those would eventually get boring, but that's a product of evolution.

Anyway, the whole point is that God is allowing suffering and pain to make people appreciate life is still monstrous.

 

[UrbanRats]

I'm an atheist... But I always thought the answer to "why does God allow suffering" is plainly obvious.

Try writing a story without conflict.

Try programming a game without obstacles and fail conditions.

Duh.

He addressed this by talking about the Greek gods not fronting themselves as all loving.
---
Also, the whole "tip fedora atheist reddit" thing is getting to be a pretty lame way to dismiss any atheistic point of view as some internet nerd bullshit.
Sort of played out by now.

 

[Moff]

bone cancer is not 'evil'.

of course it's not, just like bacteria, which eat childrens eyes are not evil. these bacteria do what they must to survive. no one calls them evil, that is not the point.

but what about the guy who invented, created them? wouldnt you call him evil?
if scientists created bacterie, which eat childrens eyes and unleashed them into the world, just because they feel like it, would it be unreasonable if some people called them evil?

that is fry's point

 

[Mister Wilhelm]

Also, the whole "tip fedora atheist reddit" thing is getting to be a pretty lame way to dismiss any atheistic point of view as some internet nerd bullshit.
Sort of played out by now.

Completely agree. This needs to die, and fast.

 

[Zakalwe]

Your second point has also been extensively covered in theist literature, part of it is you created a false dilemma.

If we're told this god is truly all powerful and all knowing, then the test itself is redundant. That makes the suffering absolutely needless.

If we're given this as the definition of this being's ability then there are no shades of grey.

Unless you could reason why a truly all powerful all knowing being would be required to test for anything other than its own entertainment?

 

[Naked Snake]

Damn, that was perfect.

Is anything Steven Fry says ever not?

 

[Chibot]

I loved it. Stephen Fry is great.

 

[KooopaKid]

^ lol

lol this will get some use.

Good answer from Fry.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

An argument against the problem of evil? No, I don't think Christians have ever thought of it. You got us.

Sure, Christians have thought of it. I'm sure plenty of theologians think about it all the time. Whether they've managed to actually find a decent counter-argument, however, remains to be seen.

3. The poster has read the vast, extensive literature from theist philosophers, theologians, etc. on the subject of the problem of evil and hasn't identified an "interesting" counter argument.

This one. And yes, I'm serious. There isn't a single counter-argument that can reconcile things like bone cancer in children (again, not "evil" caused by mankind's "fallible free will", just a horrible force of nature) and a god that is supposed to be omnipotent*, omniscient and omnibenevolent. Out of those three things, you gotta pick two at the most.

* Even when using a definition that doesn't include paradoxical elements, like creating a rock so heavy he can't lift etc.

 

[beast786]

I'm an atheist... But I always thought the answer to "why does God allow suffering" is plainly obvious.

Try writing a story without conflict.

Try programming a game without obstacles and fail conditions.

Duh.

So you are saying God is human?

 

[Zakalwe]

Sure, Christians have thought of it. I'm sure plenty of theologians think about it all the time. Whether they've managed to actually find a decent counter-argument, however, remains to be seen.

Exactly.

I'm more than happy to take recommendations for further reading.

 

[Sinfamy]

I really wish there was a God, I'd like to live in a world where the supernatural existed.

 

[snoopeasystreet]

^ lol

Gay Byrne has finally become relevant again in 21st century.

Spoiler

and it's gif form

 

[Ingueferroque]

If you want to see Fry speak eloquently watch him at Harvard discussing Humanism. Think he comes on near the end of video 2 or 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYXE880EJ2s

edit: It's 3 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r11uE31HJ0s#t=605

You made me watch that... Timestamps!

That ceremony was bizarre.

 

[Asmodai48]

:O that reaction

 

[Maninthemirror]

of course it's not, just like bacteria, which eat childrens eyes are not evil. these bacteria do what they must to survive. no one calls them evil, that is not the point.

but what about the guy who invented, created them? wouldnt you call him evil?
if scientists created bacterie, which eat childrens eyes and unleashed them into the world, just because they feel like it, would it be unreasonable if some people called them evil?

that is fry's point

And yet this ameoba which eats children's eyes allows for breakdown of organics in our soil and helps in microbial loop which is an essential part of our ecosystem.

Life is a suffering and pleasure both of which are trials. Don't fixate on only suffering being a trial

 

[heliosRAzi]

And yet this ameoba which eats children's eyes allows for breakdown of organics in our soil and helps in microbial loop which is an essential part of our ecosystem.

Life is a suffering and pleasure both of which are trials. Don't fixate on only suffering being a trial

But God could have made it that the ameoba didn't need to have an ecosystem rely upon such a thing. God could have made a perfect world without pain or suffering.

 

[i-Lo]

God's world and human evisioned ideal world are worlds apart. When a life form dies, regardless of circumstance, it provides for myriad of other microscopic organisms and soil and simultaneously stops being a drain on resources.

If there is/are a god/s, I imagine it to be a scientist/s and we are experiment. Or there is no god and our joys and suffering may find a new meaning but the feelings themselves will remain unaffected.

Personally, I tend more towards the side of agnosticism and often wonder if gods were simply aliens with far superior technology who gave a thriving species scaffolding of culture to build upon only to later forget to send regular updates or patches with changing time.

The more some things change the more other things try to remain the same.

 

[Maninthemirror]

But God could have made it that the ameoba didn't need to have an ecosystem rely upon such a thing. God could have made a perfect world without pain or suffering.

Everything co exists together to bring suffering and happiness. If there were no struggle there would be no evolution . Agree ?

 

[Zakalwe]

Everything co exists together to bring suffering and happiness. If there were no struggle there would be no evolution . Agree ?

Why would evolution be required if there wasn't a struggle?

 

[Kabuki Quantum Lover]

Wowzers, that's a great response to that question. Fry continues to be awesome.

 

[CharminUltra]

Saw the video yesterday. Made my day.

And that gif, LOL

 

[speculawyer]

Everything co exists together to bring suffering and happiness. If there were no struggle there would be no evolution . Agree ?

And there is evolution thus proving those ancient holy books to be nothing but mythology & superstition.

 

[kitch9]

But that doesn't address the indifference of suffering between people, if you need suffering to be happy and engaged or whatever why didn't god create a world were everyone suffers the minimum they need in order to be happy. There are people who are born to well off families in well off parts of the world who live happy lives and the most they will ever suffer is that their marriage breaks down or they get cancer when they are old or whatever. And meanwhile there are people in other places in the world who suffer more than the above ever will in their lives on a day to day basis: living in extreme poverty, suffering from horrible illnesses without proper treatment, no access to basic needs. Their quality of life is so much worse, through no fault of their own.

Because reasons and virgins.

And stuff

Silly you not knowing that.

 

[Moff]

And yet this ameoba which eats children's eyes allows for breakdown of organics in our soil and helps in microbial loop which is an essential part of our ecosystem.

Life is a suffering and pleasure both of which are trials. Don't fixate on only suffering being a trial

the whole rethoric, that god created suffering as a trial and to get us further, is exactly fry's point why god is such an asshole. like the father who beats his children because he "loves" them.

 

[kitch9]

And yet this ameoba which eats children's eyes allows for breakdown of organics in our soil and helps in microbial loop which is an essential part of our ecosystem.

Life is a suffering and pleasure both of which are trials. Don't fixate on only suffering being a trial

There was no real need for the eye eating bit was there?

That's the work of a deranged crazy.

 

[Rich!]

I don't believe any aspect of any kind of religion

but lets say there really is a heaven and hell. who the fuck would want to be in heaven? Going by everything I've seen, gay people are sent to hell, right? Well, that means Freddie Mercury and Graham Chapman are in hell. Fucking sign me right up. Dio's probably rocking out there too.

and what's best is that people like Jimmy Saville will be there - perfect chance to kick his ass and show him whats what, the piece of shit. who could pass up that opportunity?!

it'd be the most metal place ever. damn

 

[Maninthemirror]

the whole rethoric, that god created suffering as a trial and to get us further, is exactly fry's point why god is such an asshole. like the father who beats his children because he "loves" them.

There was no real need for the eye eating bit was there?

That's the work of a deranged crazy.

Because if there was no suffering and only pleasure there would be no reward in the afterlifr as per God. Think of life as an examination hall not a multiple choice quiz with the answers written down in front of you . If there was no suffring fry himself wouldn't have existed as evolution would be at a standstill as there would be no progress.

In the grand scheme of things frys point is insignificant because if there is an afterlife and fry reaches his time for judgement he would either be pissing in his pants for being wrong about God's existence or be defiant and enjoy his reformation. God only cares about deeds and thus a belief that a persons creation is becsuse of a creator.

 

[ShadowKingpin]

I would fucking hug the hell out of Stephen right now for that beautiful answer.

 

[Krev]

Everything co exists together to bring suffering and happiness. If there were no struggle there would be no evolution . Agree ?

Does the struggle have to involve an amoeba that eats people's eyes? Because Jesus Christ, no amount of rationalisation can convince me that a guy who creates that isn't a tremendous dick.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Does the struggle have to involve an amoeba that eats people's eyes? Because Jesus Christ, no amount of rationalisation can convince me that a guy who creates that isn't a tremendous dick.

You are fixated on a cause of an affect, you seem to be fixated on suffering and don't even want to admit that happiness is also a trial. You want the easy way out. Doesn't work that way. Life is like an examination trial.


Q&A of why God introduced disease in this world to begin with

http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/MEI_19910427_20.mp3

 

[| Praxis |]

David Attenborough is great too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8DL-o-POcU

 

[Krev]

You are fixated on a cause of an affect, you seem to be fixated on suffering and don't even want to admit that happiness is also a trial. You want the easy way out. Doesn't work that way. Life is like an examination trial.

If life is an examination, why doesn't the amoeba eat everyone's eyes then? Why are the cards so unfairly stacked against certain individuals?
The trial of a blessed person who has to live a good life while also being happy seems a lot less difficult than the trial of the person who is blinded by an eye eating parasite.

To me the easy way out is to explain away any and all of the absurd cruelty of life as being part of the 'test' rather than calling into question the morality of the God and the test, let alone his existence.

 

[Concept17]

You are fixated on a cause of an affect, you seem to be fixated on suffering and don't even want to admit that happiness is also a trial. You want the easy way out. Doesn't work that way. Life is like an examination trial.


Q&A of why God introduced disease in this world to begin with

http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/MEI_19910427_20.mp3

What a bunch of bullshit. Let's blame ourselves for disease? Seriously?

 

[KarmaCow]

David Attenborough is great too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8DL-o-POcU

Wow the first comment on that is like staring into the abyss. It's memorizing in its insanity.

 

[funkystudent]

^ lol

That face you make when your super atheist friend starts preaching again.

 

[Maninthemirror]

If life is an examination, why doesn't the amoeba eat everyone's eyes then? Why are the cards so unfairly stacked against certain individuals?
The trial of a blessed person who has to live a good life while also being happy seems a lot more difficult than the trial of the person who is blinded by an eye eating parasite.

To me the easy way out is to explain away any and all of the absurd cruelty of life as being part of the 'test' rather than calling into question the morality of the God and the test, let alone his existence.

What a bunch of bullshit. Let's blame ourselves for disease? Seriously?

Again you are completely fixated on suffering as why it shouldn't exist, shouldn't you also inversely ask why so much pleasure and happiness also exist? Both are trials by God to see who is the best of people. Bacteria exist Because some might act as a punishment from God and some might be be a bacteria which have benefits and non benefits like night and darkness or sunlight and radiation. Why does cancer exist ? Becsuse it is the deterioration of cells, can we cure it? Yes in many cases we can rid of it from the person because of the facilities given to us by God to use those like our knowledge and elements in esrth to use to cure this disease. When you are blaming God for cancer why not blame God on the human brain which has struggled to do good and find cures to remove cancer and if they haven't who is to say they won't . You see you are only concerned with suffering which is essential for existence because if there was only happiness everythhng would stop as everything would get its way. if children are dying in Africa it is not because God makes them suffer it is because those who are rich and happy have failed the test of God to fix the nourishment problems. Life is full of trial and error that is how it works, if we fail to cure a cancer we try and try again through struggle and gained knowledge to find a cure for a disease which we have; look at smallpox it was horrendous, when it was prevalent people like you would have asked where is the God who is letting people die. It was from the knowledge that man has gained through the facilities provided by God which is his intellect to solve the problem and find a vaccine. Don't be stuck on suffering. Appreciate what God has given you and you will realise both sadness and happiness are essential for human existence

 

[The Lamp]

That's just Biblical victim blaming. It also doesn't really deal with the issue at hand, which is why an omnipotent god would choose to allow such a world to exist. There is no reason an omnipotent god wouldn't be able to create Adam and Eve with free will and still have them not eat from the tree of knowledge.

If god is the origin of the universe, then she is the origin of free will. She gets to decide how it all plays out. It is a boring answer because it is so simple, doesn't make it any less logically sound.

The Judeochristian God could be argued as not truly omnipotent. It has limitations. It cannot, or rather, will not be in the presence of evil, for example, which is why it cannot/will not invite sin into its presence.

IMO It's not worth discussing with strangers on GAF though. They're old and repeated discussions. It's a pointless circle of ignorance to volley arguments with no textbooks, professors, assignments or university sources at play to correct gaps in knowledge. If anyone wants to learn anything useful they should take actual classes on it with experts, like any complicated subject matter.

 

[Forceatowulf]

I agree with pretty much everything he said.

But... I never totally buy it when people say they would tell god to basically fuck himself.

Most dudes are too scared to tell their boss'off when they deserve it, and some are too nervous to ask a girl out, but I'm supposed to believe these people would grow a spine the size of redwood in the presence of the almighty? Maybe, but I doubt it.

 

[Rich!]

I agree with pretty much everything he said.

But... I never totally buy it when people say they would tell god to basically fuck himself.

Most dudes are too scared to tell their boss'off when they deserve it, and some are too nervous to ask a girl out, but I'm supposed to believe these people would grow a spine the size of redwood in the presence of the almighty? Maybe, but I doubt it.

Never met the guy before, he wouldn't mean shit.

I see my boss every day at work, of course I wouldn't tell him to fuck off. God? Well, I'm not exactly going to have daily relations with him for numerous reasons (or just one big reason).

 

[Massingberd]

Oh man. Fuck the debate. Gay Byrne's reactions, this gif

I genuinely can't remember laughing this much in years . If that gif isn't a standard reaction gif for the next decade there truly is no god.

 

[| Praxis |]

Wow the first comment on that is like staring into the abyss. It's memorizing in its insanity.

I avoid the comments, but... Holy shit.