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[kamineko]

I don't want to watch the video, is it ok to disingenuously just throw around words I've heard other places, like "narrative" and "triggered?"

I'm not even interested in the subject, tbh, but somebody has to topic police y'all

/s /s

 

[shmoglish]

No, we're talking about skin pigmentation. Complexion. Race. Design. Not the lack of a light source.

Ok. Like I said, light/dark (the origins) were part of the discussion. The post you have quoted was refering to this discussion, so...

 

[140.85]

If a developer consistently makes the protagonist in their games a minority I can see why that would be odd and offensive to people.

But I take no issue with designs using dark colors to portray that Jungian archetype of darkness that can effectively communicate the concept of evil or corruption. Dark Ryu is still Ryu but is his yin. I think it's foolish to discard the creator's intent and these sort of nuances on the basis of the likelihood of offense being taken.

Can a racist and bigoted artist hide behind this? Absolutely. Like the famous pornography definition, most of the time you just know dishonest work like that when you see it. But the onus is on the consumer to prove that intent. Offense alone should not mandate a new rigid ruleset.

Looking beyond our own reactions to things and taking the time to look at the history, culture and intent behind creations makes for a richer and more enlightened society and facilitates communication between different groups.

 

[Two Words]

Step away from the keyboard

Oh, my mistake. Your one example of a well made black character by a Japanese video game company completely washed away all of the negative portrayals and attitudes of Black people that is prevalent in Japan.

 

[Alebrije]

It's something that needs to change but being honest wil take centuries, Black on a lot of cultures is associated with evil. Romans, Greeks, Scandinavians,etc...all used black as a resemblance of evil.

So videogames as other form of human expression just reproduces what culturally is Accepted

Not saying they can not do anything (developers) but this is bigger than the videogame sphere

 

[PSqueak]

Although I already apologized for misspeaking there, I must ask...are gym leaders considered good guys? I mean they're not evil but I never thought of them as good guys either since they are your opposition.

Gym leaders in many pokemon games often are seen as community leaders and problem solvers, often they put roadblocks in the form of helping them solve problems before you can battle them.

Sun and Moon elevated this when their equivalents of gym leaders are literally village elders/leaders, and for that matter most of the important NPCs in Sun/moon are varying of dark skin.

 

[autoduelist]

We know the reason that it's being done.

The criticism is at the way it's being done. Which is darkening skin tone like it's an accessory or clothing. All people are suggesting is that in the future, devs find a better way to convey that contrast.

Asking devs to find a 'better way' to convey evil is kind of missing the point. The use of color to portray meaning is one of the absolute -best- ways to convey evil at their disposal [even if you don't like it].

That it currently ties into other things, like our natural distrust of 'the Other', only amplifies how well the tactic works.

Yes, it's unfortunate that this often correlates to ethnic representations... but that's hardly new. Go watch late 80s and 90s action films and you'll see the transition from Russian enemies to dark skinned 'terrorists' post Cold War. And yes, this either intentionally or indirectly [depending on your worldview] served as propaganda preparing the public for a new enemy... but it wasn't really out of 'racism'... I mean, the previous enemies were white Russians, and before that, the enemies tended to be white Germans. It just so happened next on the list of 'enemies' / 'the Other' were dark skinned, and that era hasn't ended because of the various terrorist attacks going on. Likewise, if you watch a lot of, say, kung fu films you'll see a lot of evil white American [sometimes British, depending on time period] businessmen.

My point is that 'evil' is often portrayed either via 'color', or via 'the Other'. We just happen to live in a time where those two overlap to a great degree [that is, 'the Other' is dark skinned 'terrorists'] so it may feel amplified.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Asking devs to find a 'better way' to convey evil is kind of missing the point. The use of color to portray meaning is one of the absolute -best- ways to convey evil at their disposal [even if you don't like it].

It doesn't have to be through darkening skin. Take the Persona series, for example:

They convey the "Shadow self" through malicious expressions and bright, unnatural yellow eyes to great effect.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Ok. Like I said, light/dark (the origins) were part of the discussion. The post you have quoted was refering to this discussion, so...

There's a lot of intentionally obtuse or outright misconceptions about what the video and other examples are even talking about. I'd encourage you to wade through some of the fingers-in-ears bullshit and find why people would be upset by this trope.

It doesn't have to be through darkening skin. Take the Persona series, for example:

They convey the "Shadow self" through malicious expressions and bright, unnatural yellow eyes to great effect.

This is a solid example (and a ridiculous image if you aren't familiar with Chie...)

They didn't go out of their way to make her more menacing by shifting her skin-tone, or darkening her hair. They did it, again, with the yellow eyes, the voice actors' inflections, the audio effect given to their dialogue... They were, y'know, creative. Like creators should be.

 

[diaspora]

folks, it's not just about the hex colour code used for a villain's skin, with Validar, Ganon, and Gerudo circa MM/OoT it's using a collection of racial characteristics for an antagonist and to portray villainy whilst the heroes like Robin who are the immediate child of brown-ass villains like Validar are white as snow.

debating shades of green vs brown is stupid, the issue is both that he's a racially darker person with the racially darker people the gerudo are a bunch of "thieves".

 

[ZdkDzk]

Dark Ryu is still Ryu but is his yin.

Let me rephrase this for you. "Evil Ryu is still Ryu, but with dark skin and red hair/eyes to represent his yin."

Do people not see how this is a problem? It has nothing to do with color and everything to do with the POC being used as shorthand for evil/darkness (the concept).

To everyone saying that color is a good way to denote evil/darkenss, you're right. But that should not extend to skintone, and the fact that most of the time the color used is moderately brown skin (rarely ever darker shades), should tell you that it's not a direct black=darkness.

The use of color to portray meaning is one of the absolute -best- ways to convey evil at their disposal [even if you don't like it].

Replace 'color' with 'skin color'in every post like this and see how it sounds.

 

[PSqueak]

This is a solid example (and a ridiculous image if you aren't familiar with Chie...)

The titles and descriptions in P4A are incredibly ridiculous in general.

 

[TheGeniusArcana]

I totally agree that it's a problem, but some of those examples are almost irritating with how much of a stretch they are. Some feel almost disrespectful to dark skinned people. But yeah, that shit is really fucking racist, man. Cut that out.

Source: I'm brown

 

[IrishNinja]

No matter how much people want to complain about issues like this, ultimately, it's up to developers to do as they please, and they have every right to design a game how they see fit. Whether it is about not enough female heroines in games, or about female characters in games being oversexualized, or not enough gay characters in games, it still comes down to the fact that a dev is free to do what they want. The real solution is to get into the game development industry and become the change you want to happen.

way to own that tag

....

.

(Am I wasting my time, GAF?)

yeah but this thread's still going so at least you're not alone

Who knew the rest of the world was post-racial all along?

the "americans" bit makes me wanna put smart money on this being enlightened euro folk, hard to say

When gaming side repeatedly show their collective asses. Off-topic can be bad but the discussions are miles ahead.
I have great respect for those willing to engage, even if the viewpoint is different.
As an African i'm used to wilful ignorance. I don't even bother engaging anymore. People don't care to understand.

this thread could literally be renamed "gaming side repeatedly showing their collective asses", yeah
and ya'll are kidding yourselves if you think this shit would be nearly as dumb in OT. yes, weird/stupid shit happens there, but the amount of ignorance here would be at least more balanced without shit like the following:

It's not racism.

it never really is, right? i for one think the real racists are the people who always wanna talk about racism & play the race card

> We need more diversity in games
> Stop making villains diverse!

i mean, there's a sea of really dumb posts like this one, but this should be the kinda cautionary tale you drive by on a highway and briefly rethink your life decisions after seeing

So long as they don't decide that "dark side" means having darker skin, then no.

one & done

 

[Two Words]

No matter how much people want to complain about issues like this, ultimately, it's up to developers to do as they please, and they have every right to design a game how they see fit. Whether it is about not enough female heroines in games, or about female characters in games being oversexualized, or not enough gay characters in games, it still comes down to the fact that a dev is free to do what they want. The real solution is to get into the game development industry and become the change you want to happen. I never understand some of the outrage or annoyance some people feel in regard to these things of they're not willing to go further than simply make a complain thread on an Internet forum. Its not enough. You know what I mean? If im off base please correct me. Not trying to start fires or anything.

It's almost like people here are expressing their issues and not forcing anybody to do anything.

 

[Giraffe Keighley]

white people be wylin' lmao

 

[Two Words]

It's not an example of a villian, but Tetra's transformation into Zelda is another example of skin color having an ingrained association of social class.

 

[watermelons]

Overall I think this is like a white guy getting mad at evil vampires always being pale.

 

[Drillary Clinton]

Oh, my mistake. Your one example of a well made black character by a Japanese video game company completely washed away all of the negative portrayals and attitudes of Black people that is prevalent in Japan.

I was definitely agreeing with you point hence why it was highliged, considering Sazh is super problematic. Also Lol @ "well made"

 

[IrishNinja]

Overall I think this is like a white guy getting mad at evil vampires always being pale.

this has to be performance art

 

[wmlk]

But villains are usually cooler than the heroes.

But seriously that shit is annoying. Usually appears in Japanese games, Kingdom hearts for example.

Seriously. Terra is white, and Terranort which is basically his face but brown. Lol

 

[Doctor Decimate]

If a developer consistently makes the protagonist in their games a minority I can see why that would be odd and offensive to people.

But I take no issue with designs using dark colors to portray that Jungian archetype of darkness that can effectively communicate the concept of evil or corruption. Dark Ryu is still Ryu but is his yin. I think it's foolish to discard the creator's intent and these sort of nuances on the basis of the likelihood of offense being taken.

Can a racist and bigoted artist hide behind this? Absolutely. Like the famous pornography definition, most of the time you just know dishonest work like that when you see it. But the onus is on the consumer to prove that intent. Offense alone should not mandate a new rigid ruleset.

Looking beyond our own reactions to things and taking the time to look at the history, culture and intent behind creations makes for a richer and more enlightened society and facilitates communication between different groups.

The idea that people are only allowed to have a problem with things that are racially insensitive if they were explicitly intended to be racist is completely ridiculous. You can create something racially insensitive without intending to do so, and that doesn't then make your work above reproach. If you really want an "enlightened society" or whatever then it starts with acknowledging reactions (you know, art being a thing intended to evoke a reaction in its audience) instead of stifling valuable criticism by creating a small little box that is the only context you deem people are allowed to have a problem with art.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Overall I think this is like a white guy getting mad at evil vampires always being pale.

Except there are black vampires

And it's not like vampires are the only antagonists out there.

 

[Two Words]

I was definitely agreeing with you point hence why it was highliged, considering Sazh is super problematic. Also Lol @ "well made"

I think Sazh is a good character. If you mean the baby chocobo in his afro, yeah that's kinda dumb.

Overall I think this is like a white guy getting mad at evil vampires always being pale.

Vampires have pale skin to symbolize that they are undead. Typically, a vampire's victim dies and then is reborn as a vampire. Their skin transforms to be more pale because of this. Please explain how darker skin symbolizes that somebody has turned evil or has always been evil.

 

[Drillary Clinton]

I think Sazh is a good character. If you mean the baby chocobo in his afro, yeah that's kinda dumb.

And that the sole black character in the game is relegated to buffoonish comic relief. It's also a tired trope.

 

[JackelZXA]

It's not an example of a villian, but Tetra's transformation into Zelda is another example of skin color having an ingrained association of social class.

I don't know about that. The King of Hyrule also had dark skin in that game, and he's the king!

And that the sole black character in the game is relegated to buffoonish comic relief. It's also a tired trope.

I know there was at least his kid too. Wasn't one of Snow's buddies heavily tanned too?

 

[Shaanyboi]

I don't know about that. The King of Hyrule also had dark skin in that game, and he's the king!

So again, why lighten her skin?

 

[Jinroh]

One if a princess and the other is a "dirty" pirate constantly exposed to the sun on her ship, I wouldn't overanalize it.

 

[IrishNinja]

I think Sazh is a good character. If you mean the baby chocobo in his afro, yeah that's kinda dumb.

i always thought it was a weird shift, he's all hardcore dramatic with the gun to vanille in one chapter, and soon after he's hanging on the tail end of a chocobo for zany hijinx...might've just been me, it's been forever now

One if a princess and the other is a "dirty" pirate constantly exposed to the sun on her ship, I wouldn't overanalize it.

exactly, good princesses can't have too much melanin, y'all are just reading into the way things are™

 

[JackelZXA]

So again, why lighten her skin?

Beats me. My best guess is so that she looks more like the old character?

 

[Two Words]

And that the sole black character in the game is relegated to buffoonish comic relief. It's also a tired trope.

It's been a while since I've played FFXIII, and I didn't finish it. I don't remember a lot of comic relief stuff with him besides the chocobo stuff. I remember his arc being rather serious. Wasn't he looking for his son or something? I feel like I barely remember anything from FFXIII now that I think about it.

I don't know about that. The King of Hyrule also had dark skin in that game, and he's the king!

Isn't that even more reason for her to keep her appearance? Why can she not reclaim her role as a princess without hitting the whitening cream?

 

[Glitter and Gold]

Asking devs to find a 'better way' to convey evil is kind of missing the point. The use of color to portray meaning is one of the absolute -best- ways to convey evil at their disposal [even if you don't like it].

No one. Is. Saying. To. Not. Use. Color.

They're saying they probably shouldn't use skin color because of the message it sends.

Specifically citing examples of white characters who have their skin darkened to show accentuate their villainy in contrast to their original selves or other protagonists, or have their skin lightened to correlate with newly attained purity

It's not a hard argument to follow

 

[ScientificPizza]

Asking devs to find a 'better way' to convey evil is kind of missing the point. The use of color to portray meaning is one of the absolute -best- ways to convey evil at their disposal [even if you don't like it].

That it currently ties into other things, like our natural distrust of 'the Other', only amplifies how well the tactic works.

Yes, it's unfortunate that this often correlates to ethnic representations... but that's hardly new. Go watch late 80s and 90s action films and you'll see the transition from Russian enemies to dark skinned 'terrorists' post Cold War. And yes, this either intentionally or indirectly [depending on your worldview] served as propaganda preparing the public for a new enemy... but it wasn't really out of 'racism'... I mean, the previous enemies were white Russians, and before that, the enemies tended to be white Germans. It just so happened next on the list of 'enemies' / 'the Other' were dark skinned, and that era hasn't ended because of the various terrorist attacks going on. Likewise, if you watch a lot of, say, kung fu films you'll see a lot of evil white American [sometimes British, depending on time period] businessmen.

My point is that 'evil' is often portrayed either via 'color', or via 'the Other'. We just happen to live in a time where those two overlap to a great degree [that is, 'the Other' is dark skinned 'terrorists'] so it may feel amplified.

Man SHUT UP. You're like yeah "it's unfortunate that this could be perceived as harmful but it's been done forever, it's not their fault we're now expected to treat dark skinned people as people"

Just because there is a history of doing something that does not mean we should keep doing it. Visually representing a character as being evil by darkening their skin colour is lazy at best and if that's the most creative way you can show your character as turning evil then you got no business being in a creative position

One if a princess and the other is a "dirty" pirate constantly exposed to the sun on her ship, I wouldn't overanalize it.

but they're the... same person................

 

[PSqueak]

One if a princess and the other is a "dirty" pirate constantly exposed to the sun on her ship, I wouldn't overanalize it.

...

I keep seeing people say this, but i can't figure why people keep saying it, are they....are you not aware you're looking at the same character with different clothes?

that's why people are bothered by it. Tetra is Zelda, why is her tan gone?

 

[Shaanyboi]

Beats me. My best guess is so that she looks more like the old character?

This has been discussed already. Not only has Zelda been redesigned constantly, but keeping the darker skin tone (which doesn't suddenly make her not white) wouldn't suddenly make her unrecognizable as Princess Zelda.

 

[rexpro]

https://twitter.com/mic/status/868132133348319233

This should seem like racial politics 101, and yet this pattern still continues. Another recent example is Hyrule Warriors' characters Lana and Cia. Both are more or less the same person, yet the evil Cia is given notably darker skin for no apparent reason.

This isn't to somehow say people with dark skin can't be portrayed as villains. But it's damn noticeable when your shortcut to show "this is evil version of ____" is to give them a tan.


In short: Yo, stop with this basic-ass shit. You should know better by now.


EDIT: In case you don't see the issue, consider this mandatory viewing

Well here is the video that came next to the one you linked (which was pretty old for that matter) with a more updated response https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i20d11fGz-0

P.D.: KOF villians are mostly white....

 

[Two Words]

This has been discussed already. Not only has Zelda been redesigned constantly, but keeping the darker skin tone (which doesn't suddenly make her not white) wouldn't suddenly make her unrecognizable as Princess Zelda.

And frankly, I'd rather they just make Tetra lighter toned if they were just going to transform her into white Zelda. It's pretty gross to have her as a lowly pirate with dark skin and suddenly she becomes royal white.

 

[Nanashrew]

My best guess is the King made her look like his daughter, the princess Zelda before the great flood.

 

[IrishNinja]

Man SHUT UP. You're like yeah it's unfortunate that this could be perceived as harmful but it's been done forever, it's not their fault we're now expected to treat dark skinned people as people

Just because there is a history of doing something that does not mean we should keep doing it. Visually representing a character as being evil by darkening their skin colour is lazy at best and if that's the most creative way you can show your character as turning evil then you got no business being in a creative position

the fallacy of tradition is a powerful thing, right?
like, there's gotta be a lotta overlap here and in the threads of new anita videos where people wanna pick apart specific examples with reasons of "lore" and "that's hardly exclusive to just this series/medium" etc (without the irony) because they're uncomfortable with the overarching narrative, so everyone somehow injecting politics into their art are just looking for controversy/etc where there is none, and here's my short history of 80s movie villains and the cold war to prove it

 

[RavageDark]

Some of y'all are missing the point worse than Shaq at the free throw line.

 

[wmlk]

And that the sole black character in the game is relegated to buffoonish comic relief. It's also a tired trope.

Sash manages to be a great character. In no way is he relegated to just comic relief. He's presented as such in the beginning, but he becomes the most convincing character shortly after.

 

[Two Words]

Sash manages to be a great character. In no way is he relegated to just comic relief. He's presented as such in the beginning, but he becomes the most convincing character shortly after.

Yeah the few things I can remember from FFXIII was Sazh being the first and only character that I felt some amount of investment in his story arc. I can't remember much about the game though, so maybe I've blocked out a lot of stupid shenanigans with his character.

 

[bj00rn_]

Few things makes me as nauseus as postmodern PC policing.. If making all villains white, whether it's humans monsters, aliens, cats, lizards, cars, chairs pianos and whatnot will make you stop, by all means do it.

 

[ScientificPizza]

the fallacy of tradition is a powerful thing, right?
like, there's gotta be a lotta overlap here and in the threads of new anita videos where people wanna pick apart specific examples with reasons of "lore" and "that's hardly exclusive to just this series/medium" etc (without the irony) because they're uncomfortable with the overarching narrative, so everyone somehow injecting politics into their art are just looking for controversy/etc where there is none, and here's my short history of 80s movie villains and the cold war to prove it

There is nothing more infuriating to me than hearing someone justify *anything* by saying "that's how it's always been done"

 

[Two Words]

Few things makes me as nauseus as postmodern PC policing.. If making all villains white, whether it's humans monsters, aliens, cats, lizards, cars, chairs pianos and whatnot will make you stop, by all means do it.

So you think it is proper to symbolize that a character is sinister and untrustworthy by making their skin appear darker? Let's be clear. Nobody is saying a sinister or untrustworthy character should not have dark skin ever. We're talking about using that darker skin tone as a tool to symbolize these attributes.

 

[Glitter and Gold]

Sash manages to be a great character. In no way is he relegated to just comic relief. He's presented as such in the beginning, but he becomes the most convincing character shortly after.

Sazh also has probably the smallest role and barely appears in the sequels. Whether he's a good character or not is subjective,(I don't think so) but at the end of the day his diminishing presence in the games reflects his lack of popularity and appeal within the game's audience

 

[ScientificPizza]

Few things makes me as nauseus as postmodern PC policing.. If making all villains white, whether it's humans monsters, aliens, cats, lizards, cars, chairs pianos and whatnot will make you stop, by all means do it.

that's not what's being talked about here but i'm sorry to hear that people wanting to be treated as people makes you feel so sick. i have a similar illness where i feel nauseous every time someone enters a conversation they're very obviously uneducated on just to proclaim their boring self serving opinions

we're like two peas in a pod

 

[itshutton]

I couldn't think of an example of this. Equality means some bad guys will be black too!

Last of Us and Uncharted were sympathetic black female villains and were praised for diversity. Make your mind up!

 

[Two Words]

Sazh also has probably the smallest role and barely appears in the sequels. Whether he's a good character or not is subjective,(I don't think so) but at the end of the day his diminishing presence in the games reflects his lack of popularity and appeal within the game's audience

I think we got a good insight on a large part of the game's audience when they focused on increasing Lighting's breast size in one of the sequels.

I couldn't think of an example of this. Equality means some bad guys will be black too!

Last of Us and Uncharted were sympathetic black female villains and were praised for diversity. Make your mind up!

Another poster that didn't read shit and opened their ignorant mouth.

 

[MrBadger]

Overall I think this is like a white guy getting mad at evil vampires always being pale.

I disagree. The problem is representation as a whole. Most good guys (and characters period) are white, so white villains don't stand out as racial stereotypes.