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String Theory: Science's biggest waste of time?

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Phoenix

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String theory: Is it science's ultimate dead end?

For decades, physicists have been sure they could explain the universe in a handful of complex equations: now many are starting to fear they have been led down a cul-de-sac

Robin McKie, science Editor
Sunday October 8, 2006
The Observer

The most ambitious idea ever outlined by scientists has suffered a remarkable setback. It has been dismissed as a theoretical cul-de-sac that has wasted the academic lives of hundreds of the world's cleverest men and women.
This startling accusation has been made by frustrated physicists, including several Nobel prize winners, who say that string theory - which seeks to outline the entire structure of the universe in a few brief equations - is an intellectual dead end.

Two new books published in America question its very basis. Far from providing mankind with the answers to the mystery of the cosmos, the theory is bogus, they claim.

As one scientist put it: 'The uncritical promotion of string theory is now damaging science.'

However, string theory proponents - who also include several Nobel prize winners - have denounced the criticisms and robustly defended their field. It has already led to many major breakthroughs in mathematics and physics, they say.

Suddenly string theory is tying scientists in knots - although the idea's origins are innocuous enough, and can be traced to physicists' attempts to get out of an intellectual impasse.

Last century, they created quantum mechanics to explain how tiny things - atoms and electrons - behave, while Einstein produced his theory of general relativity to account for the behaviour of huge objects such as galaxies.

Both theories work well - but they are incompatible. Quantum physics cannot explain massive things and relativity cannot account for little ones. By comparison, biologists have Darwin's theory of natural selection to explain living things, big and small, from whales to bacteria. Physicists have no unified code - a prospect that upset Einstein so much that he spent his last 20 years hunting, fruitlessly, for a unified theory of everything.

Then, in the Eighties, a group of scientists created string theory. Matter is not made up of small dot-like entities such as neutrons or quarks, they claimed, but of incredibly small threads of energy that vibrate. A string that vibrates one way becomes an electron. Another, vibrating differently, becomes a neutron. And another becomes one of the carriers of the force of gravity.

'You can think of the universe as a symphony or a song - for both are made up of notes produced by strings vibrating in particular ways,' said Professor Michael Green of Cambridge University.

It sounds intriguing. Unfortunately, to make their equations work, scientists had to add another six dimensions to the universe: four were not enough, though we cannot see these extra dimensions because they are so tightly crumpled up that they are invisible, it was argued. To the general public, of course, all this is faintly baffling.

Nevertheless, string theory proved encouragingly effective - at a theoretical level - to explain both the very small and the incredibly large, and so it began to dominate the study of fundamental physics at universities through the world. According to protagonists, it would soon be possible to describe the cosmos in a few simple equations that could fit on a T-shirt.

But as the years have passed, scientists failed to produced a single practical observation to support the theory. One problem, they said, was that the energy needed to break open matter and study the strings inside it is so colossal that it would require machines big enough to cover the planet.

On top of these problems, recent calculations have produced a surprising prediction from string theory: that there may be an almost infinite number of different universes, some of which would be like our own, and others that would be very different.

And it is at this point that the rot set in. An unprovable theory that talks of unseeable parallel universes and 10-dimensional space has proved too much for some physicists. 'Quasi-theology' and 'post-modern' have been among the most polite terms used; 'bogus' and 'nonsense' among the less forgiving.

'Far from a wonderful technological hope for a greater tomorrow, string theory is the tragic consequence of an obsolete belief system,' said Stanford University's Robert Laughlin, winner of the 1998 Nobel prize for physics.

For a theory that purports to explain the entire structure of the universe, such a high-level attack is very serious. Nor is Laughlin alone: for example, Peter Woit, of Columbia University, and Lee Smolin, of the Perimeter Institute, Canada, have just published books attacking string theory.

'Too many people have been overselling very speculative ideas,' said Woit - author of Not Even Wrong - last week. 'String theory has produced nothing.'

This point was backed by Smolin, whose book is called The Trouble with Physics. Scientists have poured all their energies into a theoretical approach that is proving sterile, he said. 'It is as if every medical researcher in the world had decided there was only way to fight cancer and had concentrated on this line of attack, at the expense of all other avenues,' he said. 'Then that approach is found not to work and scientists discover they have wasted 20 years. That's the parallel with string theory.'

Part of the problem, say critics, is that, in the Eighties, talented young physicists were encouraged by professors to take up string theory because of its immense promise. Now they are middle-aged department heads who have committed their lives to the subject and cannot see it is bogus. It is the scientific equivalent of the emperor's new clothes.

Not surprisingly, such accusations are angrily rejected by string theorists. A theory of everything cannot be created overnight, they argue. It is like complaining about the sound made by an unfinished violin. 'String theory is on the right path,' said David Gross, of the University of California, Santa Barbara, and another Nobel prize winner. 'But this path is quite long. Further breakthroughs are required.'

Nor is it correct to argue that the theory is wrong because it makes no provable or disprovable predictions, said Sanjaye Ramgoolam, of Queen Mary, University of London. 'There are a number of ways that we could prove - or disprove - string theory. For example, Europe's new Large Hadron Collider [being built at Cern in Geneva] may well be powerful enough to provide evidence that suggests we are on the right road.'

And as for the notion that string theorists have their heads stuck in the sand and refuse to see the truth, this is firmly rejected by Green: 'All scientists are excited by new ideas. That is why we are scientists. But when it comes to a unified theory, there have been no new ideas. There is no alternative to string theory. It is the only show in town - and the universe.'

A dinner party guide to string theory

· Matter is made up of infinitesimally small strings of vibrating energy.

· Different vibrations produce different particles, like the quark and the electron.

· We live in a 10-dimensional universe.

· Proponents say it is the only hope we have of producing a unified theory of everything, the holy grail that eluded Einstein.

It is interesting to see how science will deal with such a thing because much of it is inherently unprovable and now that its proving to be difficult to come up with "one set of equations to rule them all" a lot of 'esteemed' scientists are ready to cut and run. Not that they have a more compelling theory or anything, but much of the argument is that they have simply been heading in the wrong direction all these years.
 

Juice

Member
I'm a big believer that even if string theory is rooted in truth, there's no doubt that:

(1) It's distracted from research into other issues and approaches to UFT.
(2) Physicists have absolutely put it on the mantle next to pre-macro evolution as untouchable and beyond critique.
 
In science, even a wrong answer helps further understanding. So, I don't see how it is a waste. Assuming what this article is saying and that string theory is bunk.
 

MoxManiac

Member
CajoleJuice said:
And I just started reading "The Elegant Universe." :(

Is that the biggest waste of my time?

I wouldn't say it's a waste of time. It's an interesting theory, true or not.
 
MoxManiac said:
I wouldn't say it's a waste of time. It's an interesting theory, true or not.
Yea, I was just being a dick with a useless first reply.

I can't say much because I'm only 50 pages into the book and it hasn't even gotten into the theory yet, but science depends on testable and proveable theories, and since string theory doesn't appear to be either - that's going to add up to backlash.

If it's been put up as a pedestal already without any or barely any proof, like Juice said, that is a very bad thing.
 

SonnyBoy

Member
It just further proves to me that nobody really knows what the **** is going on. Lets take it down a notch and make a car with a ****ing transmission that doesn't die every 15k miles. (Damn you acura!) :lol
 

MetalAlien

Banned
If it turns out to be true, it would be even more fantasic than the idea of an all powerful god. If it really turns out we can never prove it either way I imagine in a few 100 years there will be different groups that will go to war over which way they believe the universe works. If we try really hard I think we can replace religion with science in as few a 5 generations.
 

SonnyBoy

Member
MetalAlien said:
If it turns out to be true, it would be even more fantasic than the idea of an all powerful god. If it really turns out we can never prove it either way I imagine in a few 100 years there will be different groups that will go to war over which way they believe the universe works. If we try really hard I think we can replace religion with science in as few a 5 generations.

I doubt it, in 5 generations this will be wrong and something else will be "right" for a little while.
 

Pimpwerx

Member
It's like the raisin-pudding model or the early Bohrs model of the atom. These things are refined over time, but in their crudest form, they offer us a new avenue of exploration. Unification is paramount. If we stumble and stutter along the way, so be it. I think string theory sounds really flakey, and based on a lot of assumptions, but it's better than nothing. It's also better than previous methods that have been suggested. If it proves wrong in the long run, at least it would have provided greater insight into the science. We learn from mistakes the same as from revelations. PEACE.
 

MetalAlien

Banned
All of you are but a dream in a dream. How much consequence is there in all of history but to make a passing eye flutter in the sleeping giant who dreamt us?
 

fallout

Member
Teh Hamburglar said:
In science, even a wrong answer helps further understanding. So, I don't see how it is a waste. Assuming what this article is saying and that string theory is bunk.
I agree! However, the problem here is in losing objectivity. We don't want to dedicate all of our time into it, assuming it to be true. On the other hand, we don't want to develop some knee jerk reaction and stop it outright.

This all stems from the fact that science is a long and tedious process (we haven't even confirmed GR yet) and our flashy, short-attention span culture doesn't have patience for it. Still, someone, somewhere will be working on this, so I have faith that they'll work it out.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
The gist of the non-believers is that they'd like to see more brain power been put onto non-string theory alternatives.

Which is fair enough, because walking down a single path only to find a dead end (and the tunnel of String theory looks to be a very very long one indeed), would be an incredibly baffling mismanagement of resources.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
keeblerdrow said:
Sounds like sectarian strife is uprising in the higher echelons of the religion of science.

If science was a religion String Theory would be promoted for at least a thousand years, and non-believers would be slaughtered in the streets.

The fact that many scientists are turning against the conventional scientific wisdom and that the establishment is being overturned, despite heavy resistance, is very encouraging to me.
 
CajoleJuice said:
Yea, I was just being a dick with a useless first reply.

I can't say much because I'm only 50 pages into the book and it hasn't even gotten into the theory yet, but science depends on testable and proveable theories, and since string theory doesn't appear to be either - that's going to add up to backlash.

If it's been put up as a pedestal already without any or barely any proof, like Juice said, that is a very bad thing.

There have always been critics of string theory. This is not the first of such articles. Just because there are high level scientists who say it is useless does not mean it's useless. The same works in reverse.

Has it been given too much attention? Abso-freakin-lutely. I don't think there are any scientists that would genuinely say it's untouchable. It HAS provided some claims that are rather startlingly accurate with accepted scientific fact, and it does provide, as stated in the article, some predictions that could be testable within the near future.

If it ultimately turns out that string theory provides no testable claims, then the article is right, and there is no reason anyone should beleive it. As of now though, it is not clear that it will be all that long before it does provide some claims that are testable though. There have been plenty of ideas that met strong resistance but initially proved to be extremely powerful. Quantum mechanics is a perfect example.

Unfortunately string theory is somewhat unique in that it's a theory that arived ahead of it's time. For most of history experimental work has been ahead of theoretical. We've sought explanations for what we could observe. It's how quantum mechanics, relativity, and newtonian mechanics were all born. String theory is different though. We KNOW there is a problem in our current models, though we can't directly observe that in any tests (atleast so far as I know...I haven't heard of anything small and massive enough to break down QM and GR), but we're trying to fix this theory anyway.

String theory probably won't prove to be completely dead on, but I don't think, at any point in science, has THIS much effort ever been put into a field that turned out to be just completely false.
 

MrNibbles

Banned
No REAL scientists ever gave string theory much credit.
It's backwards physics - they make up math then look for physical data that fits it.
Real physics is taking physical data, and coming up with math to fit that, and predict future physical results.
 
MrNibbles said:
Real physics is taking physical data, and coming up with math to fit that, and predict future physical results.

That's pretty much exactly what string theorists do. The only problem is that none of their predictions can be tested yet... but as the article says some will soon.
 
MrNibbles said:
No REAL scientists ever gave string theory much credit.
It's backwards physics - they make up math then look for physical data that fits it.
Real physics is taking physical data, and coming up with math to fit that, and predict future physical results.

The goal of string theory was/is to create a theoretical model that both encapsulates general/special relativity, and the laws of quantum mechanics, into a single framework. You can't do that without basing your theory off data in existance. String theory was born when a scientist noticed the behavior of a certain particle shared similarities with a string under certain conditions (I don't remember the details all that well..been some time since I've done much reading about string theory). It wasn't just a big circle jerk of mathmaticians trying to make up equations that made bold predictions that couldn't be tested. It makes predictions that can be tested right now...but they are things that are already understood in current theoretical frameworks. The problem is finding UNIQUE predictions that can be tested. THAT is what is proving difficult, though there is hope that it may happen soon.
 

MrNibbles

Banned
No.
String theorists took some initial physical data/phenomena and made up math to fit that. Then found out it didn't work with other physical data. Then they added more math to plug that hole. Then they found they created another hole. Then they plugged that.

Edit - your "circle jerk" analogy is perfect.

String theorists exist to take research grants away from real physicists.

String theory has done nothing to improve our understanding of the universe. Instead, it has confused people and steered us in the wrong direction.

None of the physics professors at my college (google "UCSB physics") give much credence to string theory.
But next time I see Steven Hawking rolling around campus to visit one of his friends, I'll ask him what he thinks.

Of course, if string theory does prove to be right (or at least right in part) that's great. But that still wouldn't change the fact that we have been approaching the situation from a horrible angle which has wasted countless man hours of research.
 

Juice

Member
Teh Hamburglar said:
In science, even a wrong answer helps further understanding. So, I don't see how it is a waste. Assuming what this article is saying and that string theory is bunk.

Deciding that flies randomly generate from bad meat didn't further understanding, it distracted from it.

What this argues, and is true regardless of whether string theory is true, it's sucked up all of the resources in the field of physics for twenty years. Everyone has been working off the assumption that string theory is sound, and anyone who has stood out against it has been demonized.

Again, even if string theory is completely true, the fact it's limited the breadth and objectiveness of the entire field since it's inception has been bad for physics and for science.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
MrOctober said:
How did they come up with 10 dimensions? If we can't see them or even study them how did they settle on 10?

10 is a nice round number and its 2 times 5.
 
MrNibbles said:
No.
String theorists took some initial physical data/phenomena and made up math to fit that. Then found out it didn't work with other physical data. Then they added more math to plug that hole. Then they found they created another hole. Then they plugged that.

Edit - your "circle jerk" analogy is perfect.

String theorists exist to take research grants away from real physicists.

String theory has done nothing to improve our understanding of the universe. Instead, it has confused people and steered us in the wrong direction.

None of the physics professors at my college (google "UCSB physics") give much credence to string theory.
But next time I see Steven Hawking rolling around campus to visit one of his friends, I'll ask him what he thinks.

Of course, if string theory does prove to be right (or at least right in part) that's great. But that still wouldn't change the fact that we have been approaching the situation from a horrible angle which has wasted countless man hours of research.

Quantum Physics was largely a series of plugging holes in ways that had little physical justification, but it helped explain data. Just because no physicists at your school give much credence to string theory doesn't mean no real scientists do. Theres plenty of reasons that might be the case at your school (focuses more on experimental research than theoretical, perhaps your dean doesn't like the theory, so isn't too keen on hiring physicists that do)...you'll find PLENTY of big physics universities that have very dignified and important professors who DO think it is an important area of research. My school, for example, university of maryland, has a number a few professors that specialize in string theory and fields closely tied to it.

I don't entirely disagree that the approach has been somewhat flawed, it has been perhaps a bit TOO focused, as the author of the article states, and it probably has pulled people away from other areas of research, so in that sense it's been a gamble...but just because a theory predicts something we had no reason to beleive beforehand, doesn't mean it's been gone about in the wrong way. A bit too feverishly perhaps, but it's an exciting theory that could potentially solve a HUGE problem in physics...you can't blame people for jumping on board...and certainly dismissing them as "not real scientists" is going WAY too far.

Deciding that flies randomly generate from bad meat didn't further understanding, it distracted from it.
But it DID show that flies did not randomly generate from bad meat...which is a furtherment of understanding. It seems trivial now, but science is often about finding things that are wrong, which directs you to what is right.
What this argues, and is true regardless of whether string theory is true, it's sucked up all of the resources in the field of physics for twenty years. Everyone has been working off the assumption that string theory is sound, and anyone who has stood out against it has been demonized.
It has done no such thing. It has sucked up perhaps more than it needed to, but the VAST majority of professors at my school, the #13 physics school in the US(4th among public), for that matter, are not working in fields related to string theory. Simple as that. Saying that it sucked up "all the resources" is flat out wrong.
Again, even if string theory is completely true, the fact it's limited the breadth and objectiveness of the entire field since it's inception has been bad for physics and for science.
That can be said about ANY false hypothesis though...it's just a matter of degree. Certainly if all it hypothesized was that an orange would spontaneously turn into a toyota or something stupid like that it wouldn't be worth spending much effort on. Limiting objectiveness I'll give you...it probably has done that to a signifigant extent and that is unfortunate...but when potential solutions to such huge problems are put forth, it's kindof hard not to want to beleive it might be right. But I don't think it's fair to say it's limited the breadth, and cite that as a problem with the theory itself.
 

way more

Member
That took long enough for a string theory is crap thread to appear. I figured all the cool GAF kids would know that it's passe already.

I'm kinda glad it's being thrown out since I never got into reading what string theory is about. I'm still reading stuff from the 90's when science writers were accepting the theories that support string theory but were not making that jump. As the first theory of a "theory of everything," I don't think it's a big deal that it is wrong. The contoversy is that it is taking focus away from better scienece? Science hardly any puplicity to start with. They should take what they can get. By proving this theory wrong they can advance science in other theories.



They came up with ten dimensions because they found that particles like electrons would act as photons is 6 dimensions or something and subatomic particles would react as other things. 10 dimensions was the number needed for each particle and photon needed to work in the equations and 'unify."
 

ronito

Member
String theory just makes me laugh. I mean it starts out nicely enough, and it sorta makes sense, but then the deeper that you delve into things the more complicated it gets, until it just gets silly.
 
MrOctober said:
How did they come up with 10 dimensions? If we can't see them or even study them how did they settle on 10?

Because it is the only way in which they can accomodate the four forces of nature.

In less dimensions they wouldn't fit. Just like you, as a three spatial dimension being dont 'fit' in a 2D piece of paper.

0385477058.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
 

Eric_S

Member
MrNibbles said:
No REAL scientists ever gave string theory much credit.
It's backwards physics - they make up math then look for physical data that fits it.
Real physics is taking physical data, and coming up with math to fit that, and predict future physical results.

To be honest it's perfectly fine to do what the string phys. guys are doing from a philosophical standpoint, they are creating a hypotesis wich they intend to try and test agains the real world. If you'd want top complain, I'd take aim at that for it to be called theory you absolutely have to have some form of independently verified data to back it up, "string theory" has none at the present date and as such should rather be reffered to as "string hypotesis".

And I'll allso note that it isn't the only unified model, I can think of atleast one at the top of my head. Now if it's a good model with promise or not...
 

Dilbert

Member
Luna104 said:
Oh, you mean like quantum mechanics? Because quantum mechanics are pretty ****ing silly, but nonetheless very real.
Out of curiosity -- why do you think quantum mechanics is "silly?"
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
Broken Arrow said:
Because it is the only way in which they can accomodate the four forces of nature.

In less dimensions they wouldn't fit. Just like you, as a three spatial dimension being dont 'fit' in a 2D piece of paper.

0385477058.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
if you like hyperspace btw Michio Kaku has a myspace. I thought that was pretty funny. don't watch the clip when he was attack of the show though. Painful :(
 
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