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[StereoVsn]

The Witcher 3 was absolutely a type of service model game.

It was as much as a service model game as Oblivion or Baldur's Gate 2. Industry (your company included) have been playing loose with GaaS definition which muddies the water. Witcher 3 is an SP game with 2 expansions. That has been done literally decades ago.

That said considering the profits the model is clearly here to stay and hopefully not all of it will be bad. Actually Ubisoft does it fairly well I feel unlike say EA and Take 2, at least where customers are concerned.

 

[Undrey]

this depresses me greatly

 

[Ushay]

I don't want to play 10 games a year anymore. I want like 3 that get consistent updates and 1 or 2 linear story-based games to sprinkle in. GaaS are on to something.

This also makes sense for me too, but very few games are getting it right. Too many are being incredibly greedy with their business models.

Games like Witcher 3 with their superb DLC are a good example of what I like about continuing content.

At the same time I never want to see games like Cuphead disappear.

 

[Dremorak]

I don't want to play 10 games a year anymore. I want like 3 that get consistent updates and 1 or 2 linear story-based games to sprinkle in. GaaS are on to something.

Speak for yourself. I want to play as many games with different gameplay and stories as I can and sprinkle it with GAAS that I enjoy.

 

[Ray Down]

Those game had DLCs that added to the already complete base game and don't feature lootboxes, paid in game currency, or other microtransactions.

That's part of GaaS.

 

[IKizzLE]

Count me the fuck out. Hopefully we at least get a few more years of great Japanese games before they all go in head first like every other Western company, save a few.

GaaS is so ubiquitous with the industry now, you might as well nope the fuck out from modern gaming in general. Those "few years" of japanese games have already gone and died. NiOh, Final Fantasy XV, etc are and will continue being the norm and Nier Automata will not.

Of course Nintendo will continue doing its own thing, but we will see how long they hold out from all the money they could be making from turning their best titles into long term engagements.

 

[thumb]

It was as much as a service model game as Oblivion or Baldur's Gate 2. Industry (your company included) have been playing loose with GaaS definition which muddies the water. Witcher 3 is an SP game with 2 expansions. That has been done literally decades ago.

To be fair, there were also a steady stream of fixes, including an entire interface overhaul, which was a big deal. They also released a bunch of feee add-ons for everyone.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

The AAA space is quickly becoming irrelevant to gaming enthusiasts, but thankfully there's a still loads of quality games to be found beneath the surface.

GAF is home to a lot of out of touch posts, but Jesus fucking Christ is this out of touch

 

[sn00zer]

The AAA space is quickly becoming irrelevant to gaming enthusiasts, but thankfully there's a still loads of quality games to be found beneath the surface.

Looks at Horizon, Zelda Breath of the Wild, Mario Odyssey, Forza Horizon 3, Destiny 2....

 

[Dipper145]

I don't understand why people wouldn't want post launch support and content in their games. I guess it could cut into the time you would spend playing other games? But doesn't having more base games also do that itself?

Why would one not want more content added to a game that they already enjoy?

 

[Audioboxer]

GaaS is so ubiquitous with the industry now, you might as well nope the fuck out from modern gaming in general. Those "few years" of japanese games have already gone and died. NiOh, Final Fantasy XV, etc are and will continue being the norm and Nier Automata will not.

Of course Nintendo will continue doing its own thing, but we will see how long they hold out from all the money they could be making from turning their best titles into long term engagements.

What? Nier Automata was a great success. Expect a 3rd entry in the series.

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/nie...-potentially-be-hiring-for-more-nier-projects

 

[Polioliolio]

Sorry, I actively keep service type shit out of my life. I don't like being tethered to anything. Screw your services. I'm loving PC gaming with free online and indie games that are far and away better than AAA service loot crate gaming.

 

[MatPiscatella]

Industry (your company included) have been playing loose with GaaS definition which muddies the water.

Nonsense. The definition of the term is fairly well accepted within the industry. Share the same way the Ubisoft poster earlier in the thread laid out.

Why not just highlight those elements that you don't like.

If you want things to change, you first have to define what it is you're talking about. Just pointing to GaaS as a thing and then saying that the good parts aren't part of GaaS but the bad parts are? THAT is muddying the water.

Screw your services. I'm loving PC gaming

The biggest games on PC: PUBG, DOTA, LoL, even WoW... hate to break it to you but guess what those games qualify as?

 

[tryagainlater]

It was as much as a service model game as Oblivion or Baldur's Gate 2. Industry (your company included) have been playing loose with GaaS definition which muddies the water. Witcher 3 is an SP game with 2 expansions. That has been done literally decades ago.

That said considering the profits the model is clearly here to stay and hopefully not all of it will be bad. Actually Ubisoft does it fairly well I feel unlike say EA and Take 2, at least where customers are concerned.

Although it was fairly small, it had 16 weeks of free small add-ons after launch that ended in a new game plus. Plus the steady stream of patches and updates for the year afterwards on top of those 2 big expansions.

 

[Soul of the Beast]

The future is here, the future is now.

and the future is shit

 

[charlequin]

Everyone freaking out about the GaaS model, especially since it's been developing for over 2 years now (much longer, actually, but let's for fun call it in earnest for 2), just needs to take a breath.

I mean I was playing World of Warcraft in 2004 so yeah, definitely longer than 2 years.

You must not play multiplayer games. Cosmetic Loot boxes and and microtransactions have been incredible for MP games that have done them well.

Yeah, you can kind of tell that many of these are people who don't actually play MP games much and therefore aren't clear on the details. Ten years ago publishers recognized there was uncaptured revenue from people who played single games extensively over a long period of time and tried a bunch of awkward stuff to capture it -- game passes and subscription models and three mandatory $15 map packs a year -- but these methods were all pretty brute-force and untargeted so they effectively raised prices for everyone.

Loot boxes and other modern elements let them price discriminate much more effectively, selling the base game to people to play forever while still capturing extra revenue from people who want to spend more. It's straightforwardly better for price-sensitive players for these games than the previous model.

Once my troops over at From Software and CD Project Red turn to the GaaS model then I'll really start drinking.

I have bad news for you about Cyberpunk....

 

[Deleted member 47027]

I don't want to play 10 games a year anymore. I want like 3 that get consistent updates and 1 or 2 linear story-based games to sprinkle in. GaaS are on to something.

Completely agree. It's been great for me.

 

[Grindlefly]

I don't want to play 10 games a year anymore. I want like 3 that get consistent updates and 1 or 2 linear story-based games to sprinkle in. GaaS are on to something.

That's the complete opposite to me lol. I don't want to play just 3 games a year no matter how supported. Variety is the spice of life and all that.

 

[zelas]

Was anyone able to get a copy of this study? I'd be interested in how they did their data analysis as everyone should initially be skeptical of any 'research' that is completed by a company that would benefit from particular findings and/or isn't independently peer reviewed. Note that I don't necessarily disagree with the finding and it probably raises a good discussion point.

You can verify the trend by just looking at publishers financial reports and NPD charts. Games that are topping lists of units sold and highlighted for their revenue earned are increasingly GaaS games.

GaaS is a loose term that means nothing if something like the Witcher 3 can fit.

It means exactly what its always meant. Meaningful post launch support. Is the problem that the boogeyman isnt as scary as a minority wants it to be

Looks at Horizon, Zelda Breath of the Wild, Mario Odyssey, Forza Horizon 3, Destiny 2....

Except Mario those are 100% GaaS games. So like he said "irrelevant."

 

[Audioboxer]

I mean I was playing World of Warcraft in 2004 so yeah, definitely longer than 2 years.



Yeah, you can kind of tell that many of these are people who don't actually play MP games much and therefore aren't clear on the details. Ten years ago publishers recognized there was uncaptured revenue from people who played single games extensively over a long period of time and tried a bunch of awkward stuff to capture it -- game passes and subscription models and three mandatory $15 map packs a year -- but these methods were all pretty brute-force and untargeted so they effectively raised prices for everyone.

Loot boxes and other modern elements let them price discriminate much more effectively, selling the base game to people to play forever while still capturing extra revenue from people who want to spend more. It's straightforwardly better for price-sensitive players for these games than the previous model.



I have bad news for you about Cyberpunk....

What's the bad news there? That it's going to take ages to come out? I know that already.

 

[IKizzLE]

What? Nier Automata was a great success. Expect a 3rd entry in the series.

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/nie...-potentially-be-hiring-for-more-nier-projects

You missed my point. Nier will continue to exist, but the business model that was seen in NiOh (Free weapon dlc+costumes, paid DLC expansions, new characters story) and Final Fantasy XV will be seen in newer titles, which includes Nier's sequel. Especially after Square's speech of turning every title into a GaaS.

Nier 3 could be a sales success just like Automata, but literally quadruple its revenue with proper GaaS implementation.

 

[Waddle Dee]

Western AAA games have been going down the gutter for the past half decade and this is one of the main reasons why. Feels like more effort is put into coming up with pre-order bonuses, dlc packs, microtransactions, etc, than actually developing an interesting game that feels complete right out of the box.

Most of these GaaS titles lack any reason for me to stick around with them long enough for even the first expansion or whatever comes out. They're often so shallow, so generic, so trivial.

I can't believe that, even after all the weird shit they'e done (both good and bad) Nintendo is still my number 1 go-to company. The worst things Nintendo do look like unicorn farts in comparison to what a lot of other companies are pulling.

Give me an expertly crafted 6-hour game and I'll eat it up, play it over and over again, gush about it till I'm dead, and continue supporting you. I don't need an 80 hour title where you do the same shit over and over with little variance. Give me something like Resident Evil 4, or Ninja Gaiden Black, that are relatively short and are constantly offering up something new and exciting throughout their run time.

 

[StereoVsn]

Nonsense. The definition of the term is fairly well accepted within the industry. Share the same way the Ubisoft poster earlier in the thread laid out.

Why not just highlight those elements that you don't like.

If you want things to change, you first have to define what it is you're talking about. Just pointing to GaaS as a thing and then saying that the good parts aren't part of GaaS but the bad parts are? THAT is muddying the water.

We have a single player game with some patches and 2 expansions. I directly gave 2 examples in Oblivion and Baldur's Gate 2 which did much the same thing and that was normal in games before.

The above has nothing to do with GaaS games being good or bad. I am merely saying that a single player game with an expansion or two shouldn't be classified as GaaS.

On the other hand FFXV is clearly operating on a GaaS model with a constant trickles of bite size releases including an MP mode and probably a second season Pass in 2018. I like FFXV btw so not saying that's a bad thing. Much the same as AC Origins could be classified as GaaS with live events, daily tasks, etc... and once again that doesn't have to be a bad thing.

Some GaaS games will be good (Rainbow 6, PUBG, etc) and some will have crappy models for consumers (NBA2K18, Shadows of War, probably new Battlefront). However , that still doesn't make Witcher 3 a GaaS game.

Edit: you can see the BS around definition when Zelda BotW or Horizon are considered GaaS. Those are SP games with expansion (two in case of Zelda) and patches. If that's GaaS so was Neverwinter Nights 2. Let's not get crazy here.

 

[Audioboxer]

You missed my point. Nier will continue to exist, but the business model that was seen in NiOh (Free weapon dlc+costumes, paid DLC expansions, new characters story) and Final Fantasy XV will be seen in newer titles, which includes Nier's sequel. Especially after Square's speech of turning every title into a GaaS.

Nier 3 could be a sales success just like Automata, but literally quadruple its revenue with proper GaaS implementation.

Nier already has DLC and costumes. The DLC could maybe be better, I didn't buy it as it sounded pretty pointless (some fight arena thing). I'm not sure where Nier quadrupling its revenue comes from.

Loot boxes and overbearing space bux microtransactions are still largely a Western developer phenomenon with AA/AAA. Hence why some of the Japanese titles mentioned, even if they have DLC/season passes, don't tend to have single player experiences riddled with gameplay affecting monetization. Some of the JRPGs can get a bit bonkers with costume DLC, but for the most part the actual games themselves are still playing like PS2/PS3 era games full of content, cosmetics and no menus popping up asking if you want to buy 20,000 crystals for $20.

 

[IKizzLE]

We have a single player game with some patches and 2 expansions. I directly gave 2 examples in Oblivion and Baldur's Gate 2 which did much the same thing and that was normal in games before.

The above has nothing to do with GaaS games being good or bad. I am merely saying that a single player game with an expansion or two shouldn't be classified as GaaS.

On the other hand FFXV is clearly operating on a GaaS model with a constant trickles of bite size releases including an MP mode and probably a second season Pass in 2018. I like FFXV btw so not saying that's a bad thing. Much the same as AC Origins could be classified as GaaS with live events, daily tasks, etc... and once again that doesn't have to be a bad thing.

Some GaaS games will be good (Rainbow 6, PUBG, etc) and some will have crappy models for consumers (NBA2K18, Shadows of War, probably new Battlefront). However , that still doesn't make Witcher 3 a GaaS game.

Regular updates and a continuous production throughout the product lifecycle is the literal definition of Games as a Service. 'As a service' moniker is not new and a game that has two expansions throughout its lifecycle is 100% classified as GaaS. Witcher 3 also had continuous updates and patches, hell, it just had a pro support update. It is CONTINUALLY getting updated, years down the line, with free and paid content. I.....I'm not sure what else you want to use to define Witcher 3 as a GaaS.

 

[Zackat]

This is the way I like my games. I play the single player games as well but if I had to choose it would be an easy choice for multiplayer GaaS.

 

[MatPiscatella]

Fundamental misunderstanding of what the GaaS is.

I believe you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what games as a service entails.

We can't have a productive conversation if we cannot agree on definitions.

Have a great rest of the day.

(P.S. While at WB I did extensive revenue forecasting and planning around The Witcher 3 as WB distributed the packaged versions of the game in the US. I literally modeled and reported on sales of the game, knowing exactly what support was occurring for the title over time.)

 

[Necron]

Time to find a new hobby or hope that titles like Hellblade: Setsuna's Sacrifice become the norm.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

"As a service" is among the phrases most-likely to immediately turn me off of your game. Anyone paying attention at this point knows that it's just code for more ways for publishers to swindle you out of your money.

Good.

It's depressing when a title in a series, particularly multiplayer games, would really nail the gameplay and when all you wanted was just more content for that game (character, stages, weapons, etc.) you get a sequel that fucks up what made that game great.

Although fighting games have always used this model to some degree, I'm glad it's working out because buying entirely new games to play updated versions of the game I already owned was not appealing. That genre seems to benefit the most from this kind of model because the first iteration of a new fighting game usually isn't all that great.

It was actually cheaper to trade in your old SF4 disc for the new SF4 version (or buy the equivalent digital expansion pack) than it is to buy all the new characters for SF5 as they're released.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

GaaS is a lot of good for the industry, too. Keeps people employed beyond their initial contracts, I'd imagine. Or creates jobs for live teams. Lots of benefits to it, even if you don't like playing GaaS kideo games.

 

[Welfare]

Nonsense. The definition of the term is fairly well accepted within the industry. Share the same way the Ubisoft poster earlier in the thread laid out.

Why not just highlight those elements that you don't like.

If you want things to change, you first have to define what it is you're talking about. Just pointing to GaaS as a thing and then saying that the good parts aren't part of GaaS but the bad parts are? THAT is muddying the water.



The biggest games on PC: PUBG, DOTA, LoL, even WoW... hate to break it to you but guess what those games qualify as?

Some just don't want to come to terms with how games are monetized and how wide reaching these tactics can be.

GaaS has basically turned into the same as microtransactions. Misinformation/outdated info turns these terms in poison no matter how they are implemented.

Like really, what game nowadays is just the initial release with nothing else afterwards? Devs are always going to try and keep the player coming back to play.

 

[charlequin]

What's the bad news there? That it's going to take ages to come out? I know that already.

It's a multiplayer game. They're hiring multiple multiplayer game designers and engineers specialized in live-server applications. It's going to be 100% a service game even if there's a campaign or whatever that can be played entirely solo out of the box.

(The point here really being, it's extremely likely that this game will both be absolutely and unquestionably built around a service model and still an enjoyable game for Witcher fans if they don't reject a game with service components out of hand.)

I can't believe that, even after all the weird shit they'e done (both good and bad) Nintendo is still my number 1 go-to company.

Nintendo the company that's gone all-in on service games more than ever before on the Switch?

 

[Darryl M R]

This is what I want so I can't complain.

 

[Audioboxer]

It's a multiplayer game. They're hiring multiple multiplayer game designers and engineers specialized in live-server applications. It's going to be 100% a service game even if there's a campaign or whatever that can be played entirely solo out of the box.

(The point here really being, it's extremely likely that this game will both be absolutely and unquestionably built around a service model and still an enjoyable game for Witcher fans if they don't reject a game with service components out of hand.)



Nintendo the company that's gone all-in on service games more than ever before on the Switch?

Dark Souls and Bloodborne are multiplayer games. I gave them as examples I hold highly to DLC done correctly. If CD Project Red carry on their tradition of treating gamers money and time with respect I'm sure they'll handle whatever multiplayer they do well.

 

[Fishook]

As a purely single player gamer these days I have mixed feelings about games of service. It's a been brilliant for strategic games as well as stuff like Forza I can just dip into.

RPG's and Story based games are different ketttle of fish, I enjoy a nice tight experience which doesn't involve grinding or too much reparative gameplay. I genuinely no desire to play Shadow of Mordor even though I enjoyed the first one.

I getting a just getting a bit bored with AAA gaming, but I enjoy playing them once in a while.

 

[_Ryo_]

If all future games will be GAAS I'll just stick to buying retro games and never buy a new one again.

 

[timetokill]

The market voted with their wallets

 

[Zombine]

When I find a shooter I Love I don’t want to let go of it. Having Rainbow Six: Siege for a number of years because of this mentality is LOVELY.

 

[StereoVsn]

It's a multiplayer game. They're hiring multiple multiplayer game designers and engineers specialized in live-server applications. It's going to be 100% a service game even if there's a campaign or whatever that can be played entirely solo out of the box.

(The point here really being, it's extremely likely that this game will both be absolutely and unquestionably built around a service model and still an enjoyable game for Witcher fans if they don't reject a game with service components out of hand.)

Nintendo the company that's gone all-in on service games more than ever before on the Switch?

It all depends on implementation. If CPDR goes all WB and locks endgame behind DLC and slows down progression to entice lootbox purchase that would be one thing. If they offer MP services ala ME3 or Uncharted games and some MT possibilities line AC games plus quality expansions that would be an entirely different animal.

As far as Nintendo, do people not see Splatoon 2 or Arms or locking difficulty modes behind physical plastic toys or season passes everywhere? Nintendo is all in on GaaS.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

And yet how much of this 'value' has actually benefited the workers who make the games that create this value?

Workers? What workers?

 

[Mechanized]

Not paying taxes probably helps too.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I can't believe that, even after all the weird shit they'e done (both good and bad) Nintendo is still my number 1 go-to company.

Guess what these are?

 

[Delusibeta]

This is interesting.

The thing with credit card fraud (and anyone who charges back a purchase) is that on top of having to refund the fraudulent purchase, the credit card providers also demands a large fee. Hence, negative money. That's why pretty much every digital distributor bans you for charging back. At least with piracy, you don't have Visa demanding you pay a fine.

Everyone freaking out about the GaaS model, especially since it's been developing for over 2 years now (much longer, actually, but let's for fun call it in earnest for 2), just needs to take a breath.

A large part of the problem is that the definition of Games as a Service is very fuzzy, with the loosest definition ("games with continuous post release support") being valid for games that are older than a fair proportion of this site's userbase (e.g. Nethack, Dwarf Fortress, etc). Even the strictest definition ("games with lootboxes") can be applied to some decently old games (*insert the entire Japanese phone game market here*).

 

[Crossing Eden]

The AAA space is quickly becoming irrelevant to gaming enthusiasts, but thankfully there's a still loads of quality games to be found beneath the surface.

The game with the most OTs in GAF history is Destiny. Destiny 2 released barely a month ago and already has 3.

Those game had DLCs that added to the already complete base game.

Which also makes them GaaS

 

[Huge Succeeded]

and the future is shit

2017 is the best year in gaming in ten years though

 

[Pinko Marx]

All the door and gloom in this thread is so annoying to see. As if we haven't received a wealth of awesome single player games this year, with more on the horizon.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Sigh.

No, it means that GaaS is so prevalent that you don't notice it because it's everywhere.

What you want instead is a boogeyman, a term to use for everything you don't like.

Reading Mat's posts really helps me understand why industry people don't engage with the fans. It doesn't matter how much you know or how well you explain it to people, a sizeable horde will just cover their ears and yell NO YOU'RE WRONG

 

[ZangBa]

Sounds good. It works well and fits with a lot of game genres, and if done right, are generally pretty good for the consumer too.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Reading Mat's posts really helps me understand why industry people don't engage with the fans. It doesn't matter how much you know or how well you explain it to people, a sizeable horde will just cover their ears and yell NO YOU'RE WRONG

I think that's more or less those invested with the hobby like forum places such as these. A casual player probably more willing to listen to industry explanations instead of doing driveby posts.

Sounds good. It works well and fits with a lot of game genres, and if done right, are generally pretty good for the consumer too.

I'd love continuous support for a lot of games, provided it's done right. If the y could make up the costs in some ways, maybe games that are expensive could thrive in the market. Abuse CAN happen but people need to be on top of those instances and not start by generalizing/painting with a large brush.

 

[m00h]

I don't like the GaaS model at all. I love games with a good story that have an actual end. I hate story DLC's. If I buy a game, I want a complete, round story, not a cliffhanger to justify a story DLC or another episode.
I also don't want to spend months on a game, if I'm done with it I want to move on to another game. I hate games that are trying to force me to stay at it at any price.

I'm so glad that I don't care that much about gaming as I did 10, or even 5 years ago. I see myself losing interest in that hobby day by day. I probably will support good sp greed-free games further in the future, but I also feel more attached to the old sp games I can replay over and over again if there won't be any new games that will meet my expectations.