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[djplaeskool]

What the FUCK is going on in Alaska?

Compound current issues with a 60+% gun ownership rate.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Well if there's nothing holding you back like a family and friends, and your rural community is the issue, wouldn't it at least be worth the effort to try and move somewhere else before getting to the point of no return?

A lot of these guys have probably never seen a city in their life, and some of them may not really have any money for transportation (like paying for gas) and then money to pay rent and find work before starving to death.

If you don't know anyone, and don't have anywhere to turn when you get to the big city (if there's even one within several hours), it's probably pretty hard.

 

[besada]

If anyone's interested in doing further reading about guns and suicide:
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/guns-suicide/

A 2008 study by Miller and David Hemenway, HICRC director and author of the book Private Guns, Public Health, found that rates of firearm suicides in states with the highest rates of gun ownership are 3.7 times higher for men and 7.9 times higher for women, compared with states with the lowest gun ownership—though the rates of non-firearm suicides are about the same. A gun in the home raises the suicide risk for everyone: gun owner, spouse and children alike.

 

[Obliterator]

A lot of these guys have probably never seen a city in their life, and at that point some of them may not really have any money for transportation or to find work before starving to death.

This is a big issue you see come up a lot when talking about the problems people in rural communities face. You often see people say "Well just move to the city!" Well the problem is most people that live in rural areas flat out don't have the money to even make that happen. Cost of living in the city is more and the jobs in rural areas pay less, so they are much less likely to have the sort of money saved up to just move into the city and look for a new job

 

[Pancake Mix]

This is a big issue you see come up a lot when talking about the problems people in rural communities face. You often see people say "Well just move to the city!" Well the problem is most people that live in rural areas flat out don't have the money to even make that happen. Cost of living in the city is more and the jobs in rural areas pay less, so they are much less likely to have the sort of money saved up to just move into the city and look for a new job

Yeah, I think the lack of a safety net or community is really concerning. Disproportionately high figures also affect Native communities, which really makes me think that the key is neglected, impoverished rural communities. People don't talk about them enough.

 

[3N16MA]

No.

By far the greatest number of suicides are among middle aged white men, not exactly a group I would describe as having their personal freedom invalidated by right wing parents.

The real cause is the collapse of their communities and the loss of the jobs that these particular groups were employed in, namely factory work, construction, etc...

The traditional industries that supported these men have disappeared as they hit middle age. The economic hit leads to depression and broken marriages, and then further isolation and substance abuse. Most middle aged men have substantially less developed social circles than women, so they end up truly alone when they are unemployed and left by romantic partners.

Suicide seems like the only option to many of these people as they watch their lives slip away from them.

It is much the same situation in Britain, where the suicide rates among men of the same age have gone through the roof.

I came across the same information a few years ago and was suprised (I made a thread). I always thought youth groups were the leading group. I never looked into any of this so the headline that it was middle aged white males was suprising.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

IIRC, women attempt suicide more than men, but men are typically more successful. Men use guns, women dont.

I would be interested to see if it's the number of individuals who attempt suicide, or if it's total suicide attempts. Because like you said if men are more likely to use a gun then they are more likely to only attempt suicide once (as it will be a success) whereas the same woman may attempt suicide multiple times.

Yeah, I think the lack of a safety net or community is really concerning. Disproportionately high figures also affect Native communities, which really makes me think that the key is neglected, impoverished rural communities. People don't talk about them enough.

As someone who grew up in rural communities 2/3rds my life it was not uncommon to outright hear refusal by people when it comes to taking advantage of safety nets. Like I've heard people refuse to take advantage of state food assistance programs because they won't "suck from the government's teat". Sometimes they'd even get racist with their reasoning for not enrolling.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

My theory on why men (particularly white men) have higher suicide rates is because our culture continues to tell them they are owed by society things like a successful job and family. So when those men are unable to acquire those things they feel denied, and turn to violence, either against others or themselves.

I don't think they feel owed those things, I think they feel those things are expected of them.

If they can't meet what society has established as the bare minimum, then they feel like they have failed themselves and their families, and eventually the hopelessness of their situation drives them to suicide.

The only instance in which I think the word "owed" is relevant is with older white men who feel like they are owed a retirement. They expect a light at the end of the tunnel, but it's just bills upon bills all the way to the end, and again the hopelessness is what does them in.

 

[family_guy]

This is a big issue you see come up a lot when talking about the problems people in rural communities face. You often see people say "Well just move to the city!" Well the problem is most people that live in rural areas flat out don't have the money to even make that happen. Cost of living in the city is more and the jobs in rural areas pay less, so they are much less likely to have the sort of money saved up to just move into the city and look for a new job

Given the majority of gun related suicides, maybe sell the gun and take the bus as far as the money can get you with just the shirt on your back. My point is to not just give up.

 

[Sunster]

I'm white and depression runs in our family. We are not close knit at all. We are mostly liberal apart from my dad's side. I'm not a middle aged man so I can't speak on the entitled but inability to be a provider theory. But the lack of a inter-family/community support system really rings true for a lot of white teens and 20 somethings I reckon. I've lived in many white neighborhoods and one thing I've noticed is that neighbors tend to keep to themselves. We sure do.

 

[defiler76]

I live in South West Virginia, And I have had Family member's as well as 7 other friends and acquaintances who have committed suicide. On the other hand I have had one person I knew lose their life to an auto accident and one to OD on Oxycontin.

And Two of the 7 were Vet's.

 

[Zushin]

I lost my Dad to suicide a couple of years back (White Australian). Not sure why Caucasians seem to have a higher rate. In my Dad's case he was in a lot of debt (which I found out later), three failed marriages, a bit of a fucked up childhood and definitely too "macho" for his own good. His ego never would have let him seek help.

Edit: should also add, his death was via a gun aswell, despite Australia's tough gun laws.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Also increased gun ownership. Guns account for half of all suicides. Consequently, areas with higher gun ownership lead to areas with higher successful suicide rates.

As grim as it is

the thought of putting a bullet in your head is easier to swallow then drinking some noxious concoction and then slowly dying, or wrapping a rope around your neck and suffering pain for an extended period of time.

So yeah, more guns is bad in that regard.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I don't think they feel owed those things, I think they feel those things are expected of them.

That's probably a better way of wording what I was trying to say.

 

[Pancake Mix]

As someone who grew up in rural communities 2/3rds my life it was not uncommon to outright hear refusal by people when it comes to taking advantage of safety nets. Like I've heard people refuse to take advantage of state food assistance programs because they won't "suck from the government's teat". Sometimes they'd even get racist with their reasoning for not enrolling.

I'm not American, but in my country everyone (including in rural areas) likes stuff like universal health care at the very minimum, even if they might feel similarly to that about other things. I cannot imagine being without even universal basic care.

Obviously, everyone wants the jobs to come back, but they've been bleeding from those areas for a long, long time.

 

[Aureon]

Also increased gun ownership. Guns account for half of all suicides. Consequently, areas with higher gun ownership lead to areas with higher successful suicide rates.

This can't be understated. A lot of people actually attempt suicide at some point, but most of them just fail at it, and get better. The average is around 25:1
For young people, it's actually even harder: for people under 24, it's around 100:1.
Having a gun in the house, obviously, massively increases the chances of suicide.
Shit you'd think was decently lethal (Like a knife to the abdomen) can actually carry a 10% or so lethality, and even absurd things (like train-assisted) are actually very survivable.

I'm just gonna link it here because it was getting morbid.

Women actually attempt suicide more than men, but use less lethal methods: so less lethal, that the final count is 4 men : 1 woman.

Having a useable gun in your home is a danger, and even more than a danger of accidents, a danger of self-harm.

 

[Sunster]

This can't be understated. A lot of people actually attempt suicide at some point, but most of them just fail at it, and get better. The average is around 25:1
For young people, it's actually even harder: for people under 24, it's around 100:1.
Having a gun in the house, obviously, massively increases the chances of suicide.
Shit you'd think was decently lethal (Like a knife to the abdomen) can actually carry a 10% or so lethality, and even absurd things (like train-assisted) are actually very survivable.

I'm just gonna link it here because it was getting morbid.

Women actually attempt suicide more than men, but use less lethal methods: so less lethal, that the final count is 4 men : 1 woman.

Having a useable gun in your home is a danger, and even more than a danger of accidents, a danger of self-harm.

yea...I might not be here if I had access to a gun at 18

 

[Obliterator]

yea...I might not be here if I had access to a gun at 18

When I lost my job last year I fell into a massive state of depression I didn't even think I was capable of. I'm normally a pretty happy person but it wrecked me. Still haven't recovered in terms of finances. Went from a well paying to job to now making 10.50 an hour with extensive management experience. (surprise I'm rural!)

My point is I thank God I didn't own a gun and I never will. I don't think I would have committed suicide at my lows but there were some really dark thoughts going on. Had there been a gun here.....man idk

 

[Phased]

This is a big issue you see come up a lot when talking about the problems people in rural communities face. You often see people say "Well just move to the city!" Well the problem is most people that live in rural areas flat out don't have the money to even make that happen. Cost of living in the city is more and the jobs in rural areas pay less, so they are much less likely to have the sort of money saved up to just move into the city and look for a new job

This is depressingly true.

I grew up in an extremely poor rural area of Upstate New York. I lived there for about 18 years before moving and that's only because I learned a trade and was able to get out. A lot of my friends growing up didn't, and ended up dying from drugs and/or suicide, also a ton joined the Army since that's the only way out for a lot of people.

Out of all the kids I grew up with, I can maybe count on one hand how many are still alive and doing well, almost all of them moved away like I did. Most are still living in extreme poverty because there's not really a way out of it up there. I still haven't been to NYC despite living in NY for so long, it's just too expensive.

 

[clav]

Seems a bit flawed to only count rate by deaths rather than just number of attempts.

Site does admit underreporting.

What the FUCK is going on in Alaska?

Sometimes the sun never goes down (midnight sun), and other times the sun never rises.

 

[Sunster]

When I lost my job last year I fell into a massive state of depression I didn't even think I was capable of. I'm normally a pretty happy person but it wrecked me. Still haven't recovered in terms of finances. Went from a well paying to job to now making 10.50 an hour with extensive management experience. (surprise I'm rural!)

My point is I thank God I didn't own a gun and I never will. I don't think I would have committed suicide at my lows but there were some really dark thoughts going on. Had there been a gun here.....man idk

Yea it only takes 1 really bad day. I also called them "lows" when I struggled with depression. Without a gun, it's just too much trouble for many people to go through with it and they have time to come out of it. For me, lows generally lasted 6-12 hours. TV and food were my cure.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I think this is the kind of thing that would go hand in hand with bigger studies on gun ownership. Shame that we've basically turned off that avenue of inquiry.

 

[Days like these...]

I'm sensing some resentment maybe even fragility but I don't want to derail the thread. As a Latino I think (for many) we realize (through struggle/racism) at a young age life is tough but you just got to deal with it. I think having closet knit families helps combat suicide.

 

[lightskintwin]

I think the reason why African Americans is so low is because when you start from centuries of slavery as your reference, everything else afterward no matter how shitty it is is gradually better for the next generation relatively speaking as opposed if your starting point was middle class so there's a glimmer of hope that things will get better hence the continue to fight.

My theory on why men (particularly white men) have higher suicide rates is because our culture continues to tell them they are owed by society things like a successful job and family. So when those men are unable to acquire those things they feel denied, and turn to violence, either against others or themselves.

I've heard this before about the negative effects of White Supremacy can have on White people, particularly White men. Where the expectations for White men are much higher for themselves so when they don't achieve it, they can't really blame systemic racism like other minorities even though some try which is why a lot of them start latching on to right wing media that blames immigration, minorities, and the Jews and White liberals that let it happen.

Also, it has a negative effect when they do meet or surpass those expectations and they're still not happy.

 

[Frozenprince]

If anyone's interested in doing further reading about guns and suicide:
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/guns-suicide/

Yeah, and it's not exactly a difficult correlation to draw either, if you are suicidal and have access to something that allows you to do it quickly and painlessly with a minuscule chance of survival you take it.

 

[Corsick]

Typically suicide rates coincide with:

Isolation from society/family
Economic downturns/job loss
Drug abuse
Firearm accessibility (being depressed leads to impulsive behavior, a firearm makes this all the more dangerous)


Hispanic and Black communities are thought to be more tight knit, making it easier to weather hardships. Rural white communities may have the cliche "everyone knows each other" stigma, but they're not the same. I will say that this is based off what I remember reading and I don't have an article at my fingerprints to back it up at the moment.

This also leads into why talking about masculinity in a constructive, rather than simply deconstructive context is important. You can talk about all the bad things it represents, but you can't strip it down to nothingness and leave men who thrive on feeling like they're providing for their loved ones with nothing to cling onto. Especially when these smaller, blue collar towns are fading away as their jobs get automated or sent overseas. Feeling like you have a clear and positive place in society is critical. What's frustrating is all the issues that affect this group of people are the ones they're most likely to be against. Higher taxes for mental health care, gun restrictions and putting more money towards funding vocational schools so they can switch into more viable careers. Then you have the opioid crisis. There's no easy fix with the current political climate in the U.S. The one thing that stuck with me that someone used to describe men is that they're human doings and not human beings. That means you can essenitally have your entire identity as a male stripped away in a heartbeat based on what you've done, or failed to do. It means you're incredibly fragile and liable to crumble at any second.

 

[Pancake Mix]

I'm sensing some resentment maybe even fragility but I don't want to derail the thread. As a Latino I think (for many) we realize (through struggle/racism) at a young age life is tough but you just got to deal with it. I think having closet knit families helps combat suicide.

Saying "fragility" to everything gets old after a while. But you bring up some good points after that, lack of close-knit families, but then combine that with a much higher rural percentage and you see your problem. Native Americans also have the latter problem quite hard.

Human beings feeling isolated isn't good, irrespective of colour.

 

[Obliterator]

I'm about 90% sure this has to do with rural areas and gun ownership vs anything to do with "White fragility"

 

[lightskintwin]

I'm about 90% sure this has to do with rural areas and gun ownership vs anything to do with "White fragility"

I think both play a part tbh.

 

[Pancake Mix]

I think both play a part tbh.

I think it's mean-spirited to dismiss everything with "white fragility."

See actual statistics you don't like? "White fragility."

 

[Zelenogorsk]

Others have said it but yeah rural white guys own guns and when you use a gun to end your life chances of making it through that are slim.

I'm not totally sure about the differences between white people and minorities when it comes to suicide but when it comes to men killing themselves more than women i've heard it hypothosized that when a man tries to kill themselves they use much more "final" methods (such as a gun to the head). Its more complicated than just that obviously but that could help to explain the difference.

My white male cousin killed himself via hanging and once they found him there was no saving him. Also he was an extremely shy person and it seemed like even the most simple social interaction looked painful for him so it wasn't too surpising that he took his own life (he had also just gone off to college, but i have no idea how that factored).

Interesting topic.

 

[lightskintwin]

I think it's mean-spirited to dismiss everything with "white fragility."

I haven't done that, but can you completely dismiss "White fragility" out of the equation even if it's only a small variable out of several other major factors?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I think it's mean-spirited to dismiss everything with "white fragility."

See actual statistics you don't like? "White fragility."

It's not dismissing everything with fragility, it's saying it's also a factor.

 

[Obliterator]

I haven't done that, but can you completely dismiss "White fragility" out of the equation even if it's only a small variable out of several other major factors?

I mean the odds of it being a major factor are slim. Look at the other ethnicity with high suicide rates. What's the common theme? Poor rural areas with high gun ownership rates.

 

[Jubbe]

-

 

[lightskintwin]

It's not dismissing everything with fragility, it's saying it's also a factor.

Exactly. For instance. http://source.colostate.edu/why-white-older-men-are-more-likely-to-die-of-suicide/

A professor in the College of Natural Sciences’ Department of Psychology, Canetto adds a new chapter to that story in an article recently published in the journal Men and Masculinities. Among her findings are that older white men have higher suicide rates, yet fewer burdens associated with aging. For example, they are less likely to experience widowhood and have better physical health and fewer disabilities than older women. They have more economic resources than ethnic minority older men, and than older women across ethnicities.

White older men, however, may be less psychologically equipped to deal with the normal challenges of aging, likely because of their privilege up until late adulthood, Canetto asserts.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

It's a little bit tone deaf to refer to suicide as fragility.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

It's a little bit tone deaf to refer to suicide as fragility.

Please carefully reread what you think you're responding to

 

[RastaMentality]

EDIT: deleted post

 

[caliph95]

I wouldn't use the word fragility but it does seem to be a factor.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Please carefully reread what you think you're responding to

That's why I said it's "a little bit tone deaf" and not "super fucked up". I get white fragility

Spoiler

(edit: wew that double meaning)

, and I know that it's very different from just calling someone fragile, but it just sounds...off.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Exactly.. In the case of minorities - blacks, you get the "deal with it" Card.

Actually we have developed several survival mechanisms over the centuries.

We are forced to abandon our pagan gods and adopt one from the Middle East. Phyllis Wheatley writes about this in " on being brought from Africa to America," late 16th century. Faith in something beyond the misery of Earth becomes a large part of the African American vernacular tradition all the way up to the present day.

The black church is distinguished from any other Church an explicit way such that even when white people show up, the church is still traditionally black. But even the sounds there developed from the cotton fields when slaves sang in code so that the overseers could not understand them. From there are the Negro spiritual. And from the Negro spiritual involved what is known as the Blues.

The Blues aesthetic drserves its own topic, its own thread. At the turn of the 20th century we had to learn how to Laugh to Keep from Crying. In 1929, Louie Armstrong asks," what did I do to be so black and so blue?"

If we could have survived slavery and then the nadir and then Jim Crow, then the only thing that could destroy us is ourselves. It is neither suicide nor so-called black on black crime that gets us....

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Doesn't really explain Native americans.

Aren't alcoholism rates also higher among Native Americans? That plus gun access seems to be a cocktail for suicide.

Edit:

Yes.

Whites have greater odds than Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians for either a past-year or lifetime alcohol use disorder. Native Americans have greater odds than Whites for lifetime alcohol dependence but similar odds for lifetime alcohol abuse and past-year alcohol abuse and dependence.

 

[Frozenprince]

Doesn't really explain Native americans.

A profoundly downtrodden and isolated demographic that's been systematically forced into the worst areas in the country and all but ignored by the law if not being abused by it having a high suicide rate shouldn't surprise anybody.

 

[L Thammy]

The Native American rate doesn't surprise me at all. Something like two thirds of Native American women suffer a rape attempt during their lives, most being from white men. Poverty rates are also ridiculous.

 

[lightskintwin]

Actually we have developed several survival mechanisms over the centuries.

We are forced to abandon our pagan gods and adopt one from the Middle East. Phyllis Wheatley writes about this in " on being brought from Africa to America," late 16th century. Faith in something beyond the misery of Earth becomes a large part of the African American vernacular tradition all the way up to the present day.

The black church is distinguished from any other Church an explicit way such that even when white people show up, the church is still traditionally black. But even the sounds there developed from the cotton fields when slaves sang in code so that the overseers could not understand them. From there are the Negro spiritual. And from the Negro spiritual involved what is known as the Blues.

The Blues aesthetic drserves its own topic, its own thread. At the turn of the 20th century we had to learn how to Laugh to Keep from Crying. In 1929, Louie Armstrong asks," what did I do to be so black and so blue?"

If we could have survived slavery and then the nadir and then Jim Crow, then the only thing that could destroy us is ourselves. It is neither suicide your so-called black on black crime that gets us....

Exactly.

 

[msdstc]

My theory on why men (particularly white men) have higher suicide rates is because our culture continues to tell them they are owed by society things like a successful job and family. So when those men are unable to acquire those things they feel denied, and turn to violence, either against others or themselves.

JFC you're blaming high suicide rates on essentially white privilege? Or am I reading this wrong? That's straight up insulting.

 

[Jubbe]

Doesn't really explain Native americans.

I deleted my post. It was based on anecdotal evidence and after opening the link in the op I realised I have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[family_guy]

I mean the odds of it being a major factor are slim. Look at the other ethnicity with high suicide rates. What's the common theme? Poor rural areas with high gun ownership rates.

I suppose we'd have to drill down deeper and look at the suicide rate for whites vs minorities that live in the same area.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

That's why I said it's "a little bit tone deaf" and not "super fucked up". I get white fragility

Spoiler

(edit: wew that double meaning)

, and I know that it's very different from just calling someone fragile, but it just sounds...off.

Well, if you want to put it more broadly you can think of it as an inability to deal with changes for the worse, some of this resulting from losses of position or security.