lightskintwin
Banned
LOL I did not say this, but damn how you misunderstand what I'm saying then misrepresent it and make me sound like an asshole. No wonder you're upset.
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Suicide rate by race/ethnicity
- Thread starter family_guy
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LOL I did not say this, but damn how you misunderstand what I'm saying then misrepresent it and make me sound like an asshole. No wonder you're upset.
I'm gonna pm to stop the derail.
righthandmouse
Banned
everyone's different though. when I was in my early 20's I was bitching for help. no one gave a shit. I failed my suicide attempt and got stuck in a mental ward for a week. if one thing that will ever set a sane person straight, it's a mental ward.
Sunster
Member
yep, I know that game.
Frozenprince
Banned
It's not a derailment, we're talking about the various issues that may or may not play into the suicide epidemic we're facing in the western world now.
You really need to step back and realize that what you're saying and defending is insulting to people who have fought mental illness.
I thought this was worth looking at, so I googled a bit and found this:
Doesn't specifically point to ethnicity, but I think this suggests that it's more a matter of economics than race.
Sir Alemeth
Member
Damn sorry to hear that bro. Glad it all worked out for you in the end tho.
But seriously tho, most of the services don't give a shit about men until it's too late. Fucked up.
No one knows why whites have always tracked higher than non-whites in suicide. Certainly, one of the long term psychological theories is that older white men in aggregate are less likely to have faced profound setbacks in their lives. They tend to be healthier and wealthier than every other class of men, and are less likely than women to have been widowed, or disabled. So that as they begin to hit the early stages of seniority, and shit starts to fall apart, they simply don't have the experience with handling loss to weather the storm.
But the recent surge in white suicides is pretty neatly accounted for by the opiate epidemic. Whites have always tracked higher, but there's been a big spike, particular with older men in the midwest. Which is also a huge demographic for opiate abuse. Add that to easy access to guns and a failing economy, and the recent surge in older white suicides isn't particularly baffling.
Part of the issue with men and suicide is that men are much less likely to ask for help, early or late. Less likely to seek therapy, less likely to call suicide hotlines, less likely to reach out to friends. All of these can act as a brake on the suicidal impulse, often saving their life. As for why we're like that, I don't know completely, other than it holds true across western nations. Men are encultured at a deep level, I suspect, to ignore and repress health concerns.
But the recent surge in white suicides is pretty neatly accounted for by the opiate epidemic. Whites have always tracked higher, but there's been a big spike, particular with older men in the midwest. Which is also a huge demographic for opiate abuse. Add that to easy access to guns and a failing economy, and the recent surge in older white suicides isn't particularly baffling.
Part of the issue with men and suicide is that men are much less likely to ask for help, early or late. Less likely to seek therapy, less likely to call suicide hotlines, less likely to reach out to friends. All of these can act as a brake on the suicidal impulse, often saving their life. As for why we're like that, I don't know completely, other than it holds true across western nations. Men are encultured at a deep level, I suspect, to ignore and repress health concerns.
Frozenprince
Banned
Where have I once said that mental illness isn't serious or a major factor in suicide? Depression is a real thing, anxiety is a real thing, these are arguments I will never have because there's no argument to be had about it.
But mental illness is not the sole, defining reason that someone may be suicidal.
Again, if we cannot talk about A SINGULAR factor among many then how can we ever hope to fix this?
Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
There is a lot of defensiveness in this thread. I think for some the expectation (for lack of a better word) that they should be successful after the privileges society affords them causes them to take it harder than the rest of us when things don't pan out thus resulting in the higher suicide rates.
lightskintwin
Banned
I'm kinda baffled at the insulting. The rational one's on here aren't trying to insult anybody but are considering multiple factors that could be at play.
righthandmouse
Banned
no worries my friend. i agree!
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I know you're dumb, but come on.
It's actually not so minuscule:
Drowning, hanging, poisoning and jumping from heights all require some planning. (From other sourcs, drowning doesn't mean in a bathtub - it's actually extremely hard to drown yourself to death in shallow water, thankgodfully)
Poisoning by gas is generally CO2
First choice (for men) is guns, and second is usually shit-i-got-in-the-house OD or knives.
While guns aren't always lethal, there's two orders of magnitude between random meds OD \ knives and guns. Gun reduction is suicide reduction.
I thought this was worth looking at, so I googled a bit and found this:
Doesn't specifically point to ethnicity, but I think this suggests that it's more a matter of economics than race.
How much is that due to poorer countries not getting diagnosed.
Except if life kicks you down enough "gotta stay alive and get my shit together" can become the less desirable option. The people who need the help the most are in a spot where they may not even want to seek it.
Frozenprince
Banned
It's actually not so minuscule:
Drowning, hanging, poisoning and jumping from heights all require some planning. (From other sourcs, drowning doesn't mean in a bathtub - it's actually extremely hard to drown yourself to death in shallow water, thankgodfully)
Poisoning by gas is generally CO2
First choice (for men) is guns, and second is usually shit-i-got-in-the-house OD or knives.
While guns aren't always lethal, there's two orders of magnitude between random meds OD \ knives and guns. Gun reduction is suicide reduction.
Man drowning is the worst way to go. Brutal, painful, awful awful way to die.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
I don't think it's just that asking for help is a sign of weakness, but also that saying it out loud makes it more "real." If you keep it inside, it's just a thought - it's not "real".
Eventually you get to a point where it has to get out, and it will force itself out of you in a way that doesn't require speech.
Sir Alemeth
Member
Also could be from divorce settlements since, as others have mentioned, there's less likely for white men to have a support group and/or safety net such as family members, etc.
I'm really trying to wrap my head around this... Why would white people have less support from their friends or family?
lightskintwin
Banned
Well according to a recent study that I posted, a major factor she believed was cultural.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
White people always coming in being fragile about white fragility.
I'm white, fragile white people, so good luck calling me racist against whites.
lol that feeling when your race gets negatively examined and you have to find someone else to drag down with you
Frozenprince
Banned
There is a much larger and more communal safety net beyond immediate family in minority communities.
Sunster
Member
Well I'm white and from first hand experience I can confidently say other races are closer family-wise. Majority white neighborhoods are filled with isolated neighbors whose kids are the only ones who interact with each other regularly. I visited the Philippines last May and in their barangays (neighborhoods)...It's like a night and day difference.
I think another thing that might be worth adding to this discussion is suicide by cop. As in, someone pulls a gun specifically so that a cop will be forced to shoot them. I don't think that would be recorded by the stats in the OP, and as far as I know it's more common that the cops will fall for this when the attempt is by non-whites.
This is just a guess on my end, but I wonder if that also means that suicidal whites are forced into using other methods which are more likely to be accounted for.
I think you might be reading that backwards?
This is just a guess on my end, but I wonder if that also means that suicidal whites are forced into using other methods which are more likely to be accounted for.
I think you might be reading that backwards?
I thought this was worth looking at, so I googled a bit and found this:
Doesn't specifically point to ethnicity, but I think this suggests that it's more a matter of economics than race.
Thanks for taking the time to look this up. I'd agree this data suggests the higher suicide rate isn't related to the prevalence of clinical depression. It must be situational and cultural. I think it's probably true that whites are less likely than other races, to have strong family networks and support systems.
I think the picture is depicting higher rates of clinical depression in poorer countries. (I had the same reaction as you and interpreted "red" as meaning less, but based on the percentages on the bottom, red means more diagnoses).
Sir Alemeth
Member
Oh ok that makes sense lol
Correct me if I'm wrong but arn't the parts of the country where we're talking about having a devastated local economy the same parts where the church/religion plays a much larger party in the community than in large cities? I guess I don't see the whole argument for less outside support when my image of middle America has always been that thr church played a large role in the community and would be the support system peope are saying doesn't really exist.
Sunster
Member
That may be a common image of these communities but it's not accurate for the most part.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Not here in the rust belt. I mean there's churches sure, but they weren't monuments of the community in half a dozen of the rural towns I've lived in.
Frozenprince
Banned
Church is a complex system when it comes to mental health. Yes, it can and does often times function as a community gathering place, but it's not really where you go to air your personal issues. Your inner pain to others in your community. It's a social gathering less a communal one. And with the rise and fall of industrial America, so too have most rural churches fallen by the wayside.
I remember once when I was suicidal both my mom and aunt told me I shouldn't do it because I would go to hell. ¯\_(ツ
_/¯It isn't that family means less, it's that family is smaller for white people. I think "white culture" (if you can call it that) puts a lot more focus on the nuclear family (father, mother and children). While minority cultures seem to (partly from necessity) focus more on extended family (grandparents, cousins, aunts and uncles). For white men, in particular, if the nuclear family breaks down, they are left without strong connections...to anyone.
that's a pretty extreme way to read into that statement.
(Non chronic) depression tends to be the result of the difference between experience / expectation and reality.
If you had a great job and you lose it, at that very moment, i suggest it'd hit you harder than a person who's always struggled with unemployment.
If you had great expectations to where your life would be going, but reality / economic crisis catches up with you and things don't turn out your way, it's simply a much stronger contrast. - falling out of a 2nd floor window hurts a lot more than falling out of the ground floor window. Doesn't mean you're 'weak', 'fragile' or 'entitled'
I can totally see this being a contributing factor to the disparity with regards to ethnicity.
If you haven't had to deal with discrimination against you throughout your entire lifetime, you tend to be more optimistic / hopeful about your future prospects. It has nothing to do with entitlement, and even calling it 'fragility' is probably a bit off in this case (as we're talking about mental health issues).
theignoramus
Member
There's also polls that say Whites are angrier and more pessimistic about the state of affairs in the country, while Blacks and Hispanics have a brighter outlook, despite being hit harder by the recession.
I don't think the racial "expectations" argument is entirely off the mark.
I don't think the racial "expectations" argument is entirely off the mark.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I don't think mass generalization through white guilt style victim blaming sort of helps. Either you risk up ending making people aggressive, radical and dangerous or they'll take it inwards towards themselves. It never has been a good way to tell people to open up and try and appreciate their advantages in life. Particularly not when the idea is that you're supposed to fell better because someone else is worse off.
Suicide statistics are notoriously difficult to track because even in many developed countries had had a taboo against depression and suicide so it is virtually impossible to get a good sense of it. Suicide in China for example has a lot more women killing themselves. Apparantly, women there are supposed to be housewifes and provide for the family. They have a major stigma in China with that if you're not married by the time you are 30, something is wrong with you. Like you are damaged goods. This sort of pressure of expectations just defeat a lot of women over there.
In some of the eastern European countries (ex soviet ones) you have a lot of men who commit suicide because they never found their footing after the fall of communism. While women slowly but surely have carved out a future, many men in these areas have not been able to redefine what it means to be a man. Soviet rule gave them a purpose, a function and a goal, and after the war there has been nothing for them.
In greenland you had a lot of suicide amist alcohol and sexual abuse. The lack of good quality sexual education have created terrible conditions over there and that has created a stigma of a significant part of the population having been molested or knowing someone who has.
And then we have countries like Finland, Japan and Alaska that also have their own reasons and conditions.
I've thought a lot about suicide and I think it is a natural thing to think about ending your own life in a certain capacity. What befalls one person hits someone else much harder. We don't know why or what that makes people resurface through certain things.
If I had to guess I'd think that a lot of suicide happens due to heartbreak. Either romantic one or loneliness. You cannot really take a pill for that or diagnose or do a lot about that.
Suicide statistics are notoriously difficult to track because even in many developed countries had had a taboo against depression and suicide so it is virtually impossible to get a good sense of it. Suicide in China for example has a lot more women killing themselves. Apparantly, women there are supposed to be housewifes and provide for the family. They have a major stigma in China with that if you're not married by the time you are 30, something is wrong with you. Like you are damaged goods. This sort of pressure of expectations just defeat a lot of women over there.
In some of the eastern European countries (ex soviet ones) you have a lot of men who commit suicide because they never found their footing after the fall of communism. While women slowly but surely have carved out a future, many men in these areas have not been able to redefine what it means to be a man. Soviet rule gave them a purpose, a function and a goal, and after the war there has been nothing for them.
In greenland you had a lot of suicide amist alcohol and sexual abuse. The lack of good quality sexual education have created terrible conditions over there and that has created a stigma of a significant part of the population having been molested or knowing someone who has.
And then we have countries like Finland, Japan and Alaska that also have their own reasons and conditions.
I've thought a lot about suicide and I think it is a natural thing to think about ending your own life in a certain capacity. What befalls one person hits someone else much harder. We don't know why or what that makes people resurface through certain things.
If I had to guess I'd think that a lot of suicide happens due to heartbreak. Either romantic one or loneliness. You cannot really take a pill for that or diagnose or do a lot about that.
Definitely, but there's some kind of poetry in it. (Ocean\Lake drowning), so that's probably why it's chosen.
It does help that of the ritual suicide methods i know of (Cut veins and wait in water for the Romans, sword to the abdomen for the Japanese) neither is particular lethal nowdays.
Suicide is often portrayed as a long, life decision - even a respectable one in some media - but it's actually, in a majority of cases, an impulsive reaction to something.
Sunster
Member
exactly why guns are the #1 method.
i mean, not to derail this thread, but 'suicide by drowning / submersion' is a concept i'm totally unfamiliar with - why / how would you do that?
I'm particularly shocked that it ranks higher than jumping, hanging, or even gas poisoning...
lightskintwin
Banned
I was just as surprised at how high it ranked too.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Bathtub / jumping off a bridge?
I met someone who nearly drowned when they were younger (accidentally), and they said that it was rather calm and painless experience beyond the initial panic of your lungs filling up. Maybe people think of it as a painless method in that way?
The very anonymity of urban centers increases the likelihood of seeking help. Not only are the choices for help more abundant, but you can seek help without your peer group knowing you're doing it. When there's only one therapist in town, or just the pastor, there's no real way to get help without announcing to the community that you have a problem.
Whereas in the city, you can always find an AA group, you can pick a therapist in a different part of the city where no one you know is, you can visit a church of the same denomination, but outside of your area, all with relative ease.
The stigma of mental illness, particularly when it comes to men, is still fairly strong.
That iguess is my hang up, because the first definition that comes up about "white fragility" is the idea that white people get uncomfortable in racial situations.
Associating the word fragility with suicide pains me to see for anybody who was brought to that point where they had to kill themselves. Wording it in a way that deals with particular life experiences. I still don't see how black people enduring slavery has anything to do with today's suicide rates. I can see how the world treats minorities in general could get them more accustomed to adversity I suppose, but I'm still not sure why slavery plays any factor here.
Yeah, I've heard this too. The impression I got was that, once your lungs fill with water, the oxygen deprivation just makes you drift off to sleep, with little pain.
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