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[norinrad]

My theory on why men (particularly white men) have higher suicide rates is because our culture continues to tell them they are owed by society things like a successful job and family. So when those men are unable to acquire those things they feel denied, and turn to violence, either against others or themselves.

I can agree with this. In a minority family you have the uncle that has always lived with Grandma,is in between jobs, has three kids and doesn't give a shit, family members don't give a shit and everyone just gets along. No higher expectations about buying a house being successful by walking over other people. They also seem happy.

That's my theory anyway.

 

[Keri]

I recall reading a few years ago about how you can broadly divide suicides into two categories: impulsive or planned. In many cases, there isn't a lot you can do to stop a planned suicide because if someone is dead (hah) set on ending his or her life, he or she will do so. However, if you interrupt an impulsive suicide attempt that person may not attempt suicide again in the future as their impulsive drive to commit suicide may be due to an acute event. This is is why suicide prevention advocates have lobbied for taller railings around bridges or nets to catch falling people -- by merely adding a slight inconvenience, you can decrease the chance someone will impulsively kill themselves (for people who plan to jump off the bridge, this won't have an effect).

What I'm getting at is that a lot of suicides by gun may be impulsive and only occur because the weapon is readily accessible. If that's the case, these people may not be considering who discovers them or how it will affect their family.

I don't know how well I have represented the idea of impulsive suicides or if the dichotomy between planned and impulsive suicides is still a thing in psychology, but if you're interested in reading more, this is a great article: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06suicide-t.html

You explained it well and that all makes sense. Maybe the state of discovery factors into the method chosen for planned suicides, but I wouldn't be surprised if impulsive suicides are the majority. Especially since it's not clear these rates are influenced by the rates of depression. It suggests a great deal are impulsive and/or situational.

Also, thank you for the link, I'll try to take a look at it more tomorrow. (I should have been asleep an hour ago. So, I'd better pass on staying up to read more now!)

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I already posted that I agree with this concept. That over the years it's resulted in stronger support systems, and being able to find those easier in your community. My problem is with the concept that white people who commit suicide are mentally unequipped- not because of support systems or cultural expectations, but because their race hasn't endured enough hardship.

The hard proof also being that native Americans have dealt with some serious adversity as well, and yet their 2nd on the list.

The bolded is something you're dead set on seeing when it isn't there.

As for the Native American situation, as I said before I think it's because the devastation of that community was so complete and far reaching that they've never recovered. For all the shit black people have had to deal with, we weren't successfully exiled to the harshest patches of land and marginalized to the degree where some younger people don't even know we exist. We don't have black people costumes sold in stores (reputable ones anyway). Our murder and relocation was not extensively glorified on film.

 

[Replicant]

We're (minorities) used to being shit on that eventually we have no choice but to develop strong fortitude to survive.

 

[Ketkat]

Deleted

 

[msdstc]

I can agree with this. In a minority family you have the uncle that has always lived with Grandma,is in between jobs, has three kids and doesn't give a shit, family members don't give a shit and everyone just gets along. No higher expectations about buying a house being successful by walking over other people. They also seem happy.

That's my theory anyway.

Again excuse my poor comprehension... This seems incredibly racist towards minorities.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Ketkat, to be honest the most discussion in this thread will be centered around men because it's the majority demo on the board, and around the black and white divide because that engenders the most conflict. Hearing more about factors that affect women is necessary and the info is there to discuss, but starting off belligerently is not going to help

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

.

Right. So it isn't the sole reason tho, it (could) be a factor into why some white men might consider suicide as an option. Not that I think it is, but I think that's what the other posters were saying.

As for your second part, I think the first part leads into the second part. There was an earlier post about 'nuclear' familes and extended famlies, which made sense to me.

 

[Sunster]

I can agree with this. In a minority family you have the uncle that has always lived with Grandma,is in between jobs, has three kids and doesn't give a shit, family members don't give a shit and everyone just gets along. No higher expectations about buying a house being successful by walking over other people. They also seem happy.

That's my theory anyway.

Again excuse my poor comprehension... This seems incredibly racist towards minorities.

yeaaaaaaaaaa.....

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Why is everyone talking about how men have it the roughest, no support,and toxic masculinity while ignoring the fact that women are 3 times more likely to attempt suicide? The only reason women survive is because they favor overdosages which gives time to regret it unlike a gun

You mean literally what I was told when I asked why a thread about race/ethnicity is just people talking about the issues that men face?



This thread isn't just about men. Focusing on white men only, and coming up with answers that ignore the realities of the situations for other groups doesn't address the issues at hand. The source given in the OP lists out four main sections. Age, Race/Ethnicity, Suicide Methods, and Suicide Attempts. The methods of suicide are vastly different between men and women, and understanding why that is, is pretty important to the conversation.

And understanding that women are 3 times more likely to attempt suicide is important to understanding the conversation, so that people don't say things like "Men have no support" and "They didn't get what they felt like they were supposed to have" If those motivations were all it took to commit suicide, then women would not attempt more than men since everyone is framing those as male problems in this thread.

You can not just look at a single group. That's why the source in the OP gives so many different groups and factors. Because its literally all important, so don't ignore the parts you don't want to talk about.

Because the thread was created for dicussion around the fatalities involving suicide of white men and their minority counterparts. Did you even read the OP before being so offended that no one was talking about women and suicide? OP used the study to reinforce the topic of discussion. Add to that you were 'just asking questions' and didn't contribute anything to the discussion.

 

[norinrad]

Again excuse my poor comprehension... This seems incredibly racist towards minorities.

I'm a minority myself and was actually describing my own uncle. Not being racist at all.sorry it comes off that way, but I live it.

 

[msdstc]

Right. So it isn't the sole reason tho, it (could) be a factor into why some white men might consider suicide as an option. Not that I think it is, but I think that's what the other posters were saying.

see I completely agree with that. That culture, racism, and history have lead us to where we are at as a society. As I've said a bunch at this point it's the individuals OWN experience that affects their suicide rate. African Americans have a higher poverty rate so therefore they have less opportunity and less expectation on them. They have to deal with prejudice and stereotyping so they are hardened by those unique experiences.

I don't believe from a mental standpoint, however, that because white people didn't have to deal with slavery that they haven't developed as much resiliency over the years. I think their experiences is molded by what they personally deal with. More often than not a white person WILL have a higher quality of life (unfortunately due to racism not just in terms of slurs, but also systemic racism giving minorities a higher chance of incarceration, profiling, and being turned down for employment or acceptance), so if you get to middle age and you hit rock bottom after a good life, yes I believe youre less equipped at that point to deal with where you are at.

Again my issue stems from posts such as this

If we could have survived slavery and then the nadir and then Jim Crow, thenthe only thing that could destroy us is ourselves. It is neither suicide your so-called black on black crime that gets us....

Exactly.

And what that tells me, because black people have dealt with so much shit in the past, they will not resort to suicide as often.. Dealing with personal shit? Yes absolutely, but I don't think slavery has ingrained +1 resilience to African Americans, and I think that concept is flat out wrong for a lot of different reasons.

 

[Xe4]

A lot of people in this thread are claiming white privilege seems to lead to suicide. I can see why this argument can be made, mainly when unaccustomed to hardship, one deals with aging and loss a lot harder than when someone has dealt with hardship. However, when making this argument, one has to also consider the positive relationship hardship has on suicide. Unemployment, drug abuse, alcoholism, and hardships can lead to suicide, all of which tend to be higher in minority communities. Ultimately, one must go with what the evidence suggests, since both viewpoints can have logical arguments made for them.

Overall, looking at the literature, increased hardship seems to track positively with suicide rates. For instance, (Kurbin and Wadsworth, 2009) explains:

This study sought to determine the structural correlates of suicide rates among young black and white males in U.S. cities. In particular, we investigated the roles of motivation to commit suicide due to structural conditions and opportunity to commit suicide due to firearm availability in two sets of analyses. The first assessed whether gun availability mediated the effect of structural characteristics, and disadvantage in particular, on suicide levels for blacks and whites. The second determined whether structural characteristics such as disadvantage had a stronger impact on gun or nongun suicide for each population.

The results suggest complex relationships among structural characteristics of cities, gun availability, and suicide. First, for blacks and whites, disadvantage was the strongest predictor of suicide; cities with higher levels of poverty, joblessness, and female-headed households with children, and lower levels of high school graduates and median family income, had more young black and young white male suicides. When measures of gun availability were included in the models, however, racial differences began to emerge. For blacks, the inclusion of a gun availability measure strongly affected the relationship between disadvantage and suicide, such that disadvantage was no longer significant once gun availability was accounted for

Seemingly, the disparity between white and minority suicides seems largely due to firearm ownership. In fact, the difference in white-minority suicide rates has decreased due to increased ownership of firearms in minority communities.

It should be noted that this is a study mainly on youth suicide, and there is a positive correlation between aging and suicide. I haven't found any articles discussing suicide rate differences in older age groups, which would be interesting to read about.

 

[msdstc]

I'm a minority myself and was actually describing my own uncle. Not being racist at all.sorry it comes off that way, but I live it.

Being a minority doesn't excuse you from being racist. I'm not saying it was your intention though, but your post heavily implied the following

- minorities are more likely to have unsuccessful members of the family who don't give a shit, in other words, moochers.
- they're more likely to be deadbeats "3 kids and doesn't give a shit"
- imply they're happy with living like shit.

 

[Suite Pee]

What the FUCK is going on in Alaska?

People are saying it's the darkness, but I think it's more people with little left to live for putting the rest of their faith into a move that won't resolve the problems that have always been with them.

 

[DrFurbs]

Men are more compulsive and choose methods that tend to be more violent (successful). Social connections is a very big influence. It has a knock on effect for other motivational factors.

I research and publish in suicidality.

 

[norinrad]

Being a minority doesn't excuse you from being racist. I'm not saying it was your intention though, but your post heavily implied the following

- minorities are more likely to have unsuccessful members of the family who don't give a shit, in other words, moochers.
- they're more likely to be deadbeats "3 kids and doesn't give a shit"
- imply they're happy with living like shit.

No I'm saying people tend to be more understanding, you can live your life without it being stressful or people expecting you to be a CEO. Perhaps I worded things wrong, but what you are implying is not what I meant.

 

[Zekes!]

My theory on why men (particularly white men) have higher suicide rates is because our culture continues to tell them they are owed by society things like a successful job and family. So when those men are unable to acquire those things they feel denied, and turn to violence, either against others or themselves.

I think the reason why African Americans is so low is because when you start from centuries of slavery as your reference, everything else afterward no matter how shitty it is is gradually better for the next generation relatively speaking as opposed if your starting point was middle class so there's a glimmer of hope that things will get better hence the continue to fight.



I've heard this before about the negative effects of White Supremacy can have on White people, particularly White men. Where the expectations for White men are much higher for themselves so when they don't achieve it, they can't really blame systemic racism like other minorities even though some try which is why a lot of them start latching on to right wing media that blames immigration, minorities, and the Jews and White liberals that let it happen.

Also, it has a negative effect when they do meet or surpass those expectations and they're still not happy.

I haven't read anything about the effects of White Supremacy on White men (surprisingly), but I have read about and wrote about (as topics for my university papers) the application of feminism and the effects of patriarchy and masculinity on men. There definitely is an aspect in play regarding traditional masculine gender roles and expectations causing men to consider suicide as an option when they believe they are not achieving what is expected of them (ie, losing their job and not being able to provide for their family).

As it's been said, men typically don't have strong support networks. Often, their spouse is their only real support, and if they lose that then they have no one. There's also the stigma of seeking and accepting help, and the fact that men generally lack emotional knowledge and the skills needed to deal with emotional issues, which is often due to problematic modelling by their fathers or other male figures in their lives, etc etc.

There's a reason why the term "boys don't cry" is a thing. And that mentality is completely self-destructive.

edit: and of course that's only one of many factors in play.

 

[Ketkat]

Deleted

 

[Subpar Scrub]

Maybe it's just white people culture.

Wow

 

[Sunster]

People are saying it's the darkness, but I think it's more people with little left to live for putting the rest of their faith into a move that won't resolve the problems that have always been with them.

There is a fantastic World Channel docu series called America Reframed. In this episode, as part of a multi episode special on Native American peoples they follow residents of an isolated Alaskan town. It's really eye opening. Exploring the social, economical, and emotional issues faced by the people who live out there.

Full Ep: This should really provide perspective to all the people with questions like, "wtf is going on in Alaska?" http://worldchannel.org/programs/episode/arf-s4-e410-children-arctic/

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

.

See I think you and that poster are on the same wavelength.

My interpretation is thus:
Black people survived Jim Crow/slavery -> building of support systems and communities in ethnic enclaves -> children born to minorites get benefit of support system due to past events not that they are born more mentally stable or something.

So it's not white people are not 'mentally equipped', there was just no foundation of support. It's that past events led to support systems (what poster means when 'hardened') now in place to support future black children.

For proof, I point to the Baby Boom after WW2 when emphasis was placed on a 'nuclear' family as opposed to a minority family being extended. When this expectation is reinforced in future generations then middle aged white men (whose wife might have divorced) don't have much to fall back on because of the smaller support network. Middled aged black men may have family members like their parents or grandparents to fall back on.

Speaking from experience, it really isn't a shame to rely on your parents or even move in with them during ages 20-30 in Asian countries. However as I have been taught in America, from 18 and upward one has to support themselves and a family and basically rely on oneself to get through tough problems.


(Again I think this is a smaller factor contributing to this but it still could be one)

 

[patapuf]

The big correlation is obviously living in a rural area and gun ownership.

Not only did these regions decline a lot economically you also have way less opportunities to get out of a shitty situation there than in a city. And less places to turn for help.

 

[msdstc]

See I think you and that poster are on the same wavelength.

My interpretation is thus:
Black people survived Jim Crow/slavery -> building of support systems and communities in ethnic enclaves -> children born to minorites get benefit of support system due to past events not that they are born more mentally stable or something.

So it's not white people are not 'mentally equipped', there was just no foundation of support. It's that past events led to support systems (what poster means when 'hardened') now in place to support future black children.

For proof, I point to the Baby Boom after WW2 when emphasis was placed on a 'nuclear' family as opposed to a minority family being extended. When this expectation is reinforced in future generations then middle aged white men (whose wife might have divorced) don't have much to fall back on because of the smaller support network. Middled aged black men may have family members like their parents or grandparents to fall back on.

Speaking from experience, it really isn't a shame to rely on your parents or even move in with them during ages 20-30 in Asian countries. However as I have been taught in America, from 18 and upward one has to support themselves and a family and basically rely on oneself to get through tough problems.


(Again I think this is a smaller factor contributing to this but it still could be one)

Oh I totally am. Historical factors have lead us to where we are in culture/society today. I still believe the possibility of it to be interperted the other way is easily viewable and it was worded poorly by some. posts like this----

It's not white fragility. It's white entitlement. Straight white men feel entitled to everything. So when they for whatever reason can't stuff their throats with things that were promised by white society, they punk out.

or this

Maybe it's just white people culture.

also don't help, especially since that's apparently ok. I don't think that's fair to those who were affected by suicide or have attempted or seriously contemplated suicide.

 

[luchadork]

Op gave a study to reinforce that white men have a higher suicide rate. The title of the thread is about race/ethnicity, so he wanted to focus on the white part. People then gave a bunch of issues that they feel affect men and not women, while ignoring the suicide attempt rate for women, literally in the source he provided.

My point was. Men are more likely to succeed, but to pretend its an epidemic for white men while ignoring the situations that put 3 times more women in those situations is irresponsible.

hey mate, this says that men are 3 to 5 times more likely to commit suicide. women are more likely to attempt suicide when they are younger, with this rate dropping off as they get older. while the attempt rate for men remains steady wth age.

it also says that women are more likely to have contact with mental health professionals during this period. so considering that a lot of these attempts are self reported, that might explain why the rate is higher for women in this period. maybe if young men were getting help, there would be a bump in self reported attempts by them too.

does that make any sense?

 

[lightskintwin]

I just said that's the individual. That study is saying that white males on the whole are less equipped to deal with poverty because they're less often born into it.

That is a case by case basis, meaning everybody's personal experience will be different, but white people are less likely overall to be born into poverty due to how culture is.

That study in no way implies that because African Americans endured slavery, they are more equipped for hardship.

If you took a African American male born into wealth and he ended up laid off or not thriving for one reason or another, he is not better equipped mentally due to his ancestors hardship.

First, she said white males, on the whole, are less equipped to deal with "normal challenges of aging" not poverty which is a big difference and explains why the majority White male suicide occur from the middle ages and above

In an article in the January issue of The International Journal of Aging and Human Development, Dr. Richard H. Seiden, professor of behavioral sciences at the University of California's School of Public Health in Berkeley, suggested that among blacks ''only the strongest survive.'' They, he said, ''are probably very different than the whites whose advancement to old age is not so keyed to survival of the strongest.'' The black elderly, he said, feel ''a triumph in surviving against adversity.''

In general, Dr. Seiden said, for blacks suicide is often a sign of the inner anger caused by the troubles of life, such as racism, that can take their toll - by suicide or even homicide - before the individual has learned to cope with them.

However, for whites, Dr. Seiden said, suicide generally reflects feelings of loneliness and hopelessness, which can be greater factors as one grows older; for instance, after loved ones have died. For older blacks, he said, there are support systems and the family structure is ''more likely to be extended over several generations, in contrast to the nuclear family of white Americans.'' As a result, he said, they have ''a good deal more participation and purposeful activity,'' such as child-rearing.

Dr. Santos, professor of psychology at the University of Notre Dame, and Dr. McIntosh suggest: ''Aged blacks have learned to successfully handle the rage that characterizes young black suicides. They have done so either by scaling down their aspirations or by blaming others ('the system') for their lack of success in life.''

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Deleted

I mean for what it's worth, I am interested in the discussion on this area. I just felt it is a little inappropriate when the focal point of the OP was about white men vs other minority men and why it was so high. Sorry if that came across aggressive, tone doesn't carry across forums very well.

 

[msdstc]

First, she said white males, on the whole, are less equipped to deal with "normal challenges of aging" not poverty which is a big difference and explains why the majority White male suicide occur from the middle ages and above

Again I've already explained this. Black people on the whole lead more difficult lives due to racism they experience in their own lives, and more often they are born into poverty than whites. The article doesn't say "black people are stronger mentally because their race endured so much hardship in the past" it says "black people generally lead more difficult lives so are better equipped to deal with old age"

edit- it also says "black people have a stronger support system due to having to remain together to support eachother through adversity" which I've already said a million times I get that, but that's not what I'm arguing.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

.

I dunno man, it seems like you were offended by individual posters who were either trolling or just being assholes. I would recommend sending a modmail. I was just pointing out what lightskintwin and Frozenprince might have been trying to convey in their posts because they were legit adding to the conversation. And using terms like white fragilty might not be the best when discussing suicide, but I firmly believe that they engaged in conversation and not just shitpost drive-by stuff.

Those 2 posters you quoted, didn't.

 

[lightskintwin]

Again I've already explained this. Black people on the whole lead more difficult lives due to racism they experience in their own lives, and more often they are born into poverty than whites. The article doesn't say "black people are stronger mentally because their race endured so much hardship in the past" it says "black people generally lead more difficult lives so are better equipped to deal with old age"

edit- it also says "black people have a stronger support system due to having to remain together to support eachother through adversity" which I've already said a million times I get that, but that's not what I'm arguing.

Ok, I see what you're saying and in general I agree with you, however, I don't know why you would cut the link of a more traumatic past having an effect on a group in a less traumatic present.

 

[DrFurbs]

hey mate, this says that men are 3 to 5 times more likely to commit suicide. women are more likely to attempt suicide when they are younger, with this rate dropping off as they get older. while the attempt rate for men remains steady wth age.

it also says that women are more likely to have contact with mental health professionals during this period. so considering that a lot of these attempts are self reported, that might explain why the rate is higher for women in this period. maybe if young men were getting help, there would be a bump in self reported attempts by them too.

does that make any sense?

Please avoid the word "commit". People commit crimes. This language is stigmatising. People die by suicide. Or death by suicide.


Yes this is correct. Here in the UK, northern Ireland has the highest suicide rate in the UK (16 per 100,000). Woman attend primary care more hence its recorded they have higher rates of attempt but as mentioned, men tend to avoid going to GPs or even talking about it and choose more violent methods of death which ultimately tend to be more successful.

 

[msdstc]

Ok, I see what you're saying and in general I agree with you, however, I don't know why you would cut the link from a more traumatic past not having any effect on a group in a less traumatic present.

My problem with that is a few things. for one I think it's unfair to imply that anybody who commits suicide is weaker. If a person not only is at the point of suicide, but successfully goes through with it, more often than not they couldn't find the right outlet or support needed before it was too late. As mentioned in the thread suicide is often an impulsive thing, but it also can be something you sit on and stew about until you finally get the courage.

My other problem is if we start attributing traits to a persons past, then we can start blaming race downfalls on past as well, which is just straight up racism.

I dunno man, it seems like you were offended by individual posters who were either trolling or just being assholes. I would recommend sending a modmail. I was just pointing out what lightskintwin and Frozenprince might have been trying to convey in their posts because they were legit adding to the conversation. And using terms like white fragilty might not be the best when discussing suicide, but I firmly believe that they engaged in conversation and not just shitpost drive-by stuff.

Those 2 posters you quoted, didn't.

edited out for now I also misinterpreted some posts that weren't intended the way they came off to me. I've only heard the term white fragility used in context of white people not being able to accept being called racist or acknowledge it. I think the combination of "fragility" and "suicide" just kinda triggered me.

 

[luchadork]

Please avoid the word "commit". People commit crimes. This language is stigmatising. People die by suicide. Or death by suicide.

fair enough. what about the word 'attempt'?

 

[DrFurbs]

fair enough. what about the word 'attempt'?

Attempt as far as I understand with in suicide literature is not acceptable either. Commit is a big no no.


See this link... Further down for appropriate terminology. This slightly differs by country but you get the idea.

https://www.psychology.org.au/Content.aspx?ID=5048

 

[OzzieTF]

No.

By far the greatest number of suicides are among middle aged white men, not exactly a group I would describe as having their personal freedom invalidated by right wing parents.

The real cause is the collapse of their communities and the loss of the jobs that these particular groups were employed in, namely factory work, construction, etc...

The traditional industries that supported these men have disappeared as they hit middle age. The economic hit leads to depression and broken marriages, and then further isolation and substance abuse. Most middle aged men have substantially less developed social circles than women, so they end up truly alone when they are unemployed and left by romantic partners.

Suicide seems like the only option to many of these people as they watch their lives slip away from them.

It is much the same situation in Britain, where the suicide rates among men of the same age have gone through the roof.

You are wrong. See the historic trend. It is up for all ages not only those you are mentioning. It's probably related to self realization, but linking it to the fall of the industry? That may explain exceptions not the rule. See the trend on the link.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

.

I mean I don't you get banned for talking about moderation that much, but who knows. This is GAF. And yeah that post caught me off guard, but it's the same thing as 'privilage' for me. It has such a negative connotation to it but it's kneejerk one. So I can definitely understand why you'd get pissed.

 

[luchadork]

Attempt as far as I understand with in suicide literature is not acceptable either. Commit is a big no no.


See this link... Further down for appropriate terminology. This slightly differs by country but you get the idea.

https://www.psychology.org.au/Content.aspx?ID=5048

cheers. reading now.

 

[lightskintwin]

My problem with that is a few things. for one I think it's unfair to imply that anybody who commits suicide is weaker. If a person not only is at the point of suicide, but successfully goes through with it, more often than not they couldn't find the right outlet or support needed before it was too late. As mentioned in the thread suicide is often an impulsive thing, but it also can be something you sit on and stew about until you finally get the courage.

My other problem is if we start attributing traits to a persons past, then we can start blaming race downfalls on past as well, which is just straight up racism.

Quit using the term weak.

It's not attributing traits to a person's past, it's recognizing the history that affected the sociocultural and economic factors of different groups within a White Supremacist society that could have some effect on the rates suicide.

 

[msdstc]

Quit using the term weak.

It's not attributing traits to a person's past, it's recognizing the history that affected the sociocultural and economic factors of different groups within a White Supremacist society that could have some effect on the rates suicide.

I don't know how many ways I can say this. , it implies "black people have developed more resilience so theyre stronger mentally and resort to suicide less." or you could flip it and say "native americans and white people haven't endured as much hardship over the years so they haven't developed as much resilience as african americans" Do you see what I'm driving at?

edit- as I've said I've already acknowledged I agree for sure that history and past experiences have lead us to this point in regards to support systems, individual experiences in terms of dealing with racism and understanding hardship better at crucial developmental points. To end this I felt, incorrectly, people were saying evolution due to hardship has lead african americans to develop stronger resilience, where white people and native americans simply haven't.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Attempt as far as I understand with in suicide literature is not acceptable either. Commit is a big no no.


See this link... Further down for appropriate terminology. This slightly differs by country but you get the idea.

https://www.psychology.org.au/Content.aspx?ID=5048

Uh it says attempt is fine in your link?

 

[lightskintwin]

I don't know how many ways I can say this. , it implies "black people have developed more resilience so theyre stronger mentally and resort to suicide less." or you could flip it and say "native americans and white people haven't endured as much hardship over the years so they haven't developed as much resilience as african americans" Do you see what I'm driving at?

No I don't because that's all you're pulling out of "recognizing the history that affected the sociocultural and economic factors of different groups within a White Supremacist society that could have some effect on the rates suicide." when a lof of factors are created out of those conditions, such as

In addition, Dr. Seiden wrote, ''Many white families enjoy the economic affluence which allows them to ship their parents off to the dubious virtues of retirement ghettos, to live out their remaining years feeding pigeons and fighting boredom and loneliness.''

For older white men, Dr. Seiden said, the loss of status - a factor not shared by many white women and nonwhites because the effects of discrimination gave them little status to lose -appears to be a major cause of the higher suicide rates.

In addition, Dr. McIntosh said, the low rates for elderly white women may reflect an improved ability to cope after passing menopause, often a time of great crisis.

 

[msdstc]

No I don't because that's all you're pulling out of "recognizing the history that affected the sociocultural and economic factors of different groups within a White Supremacist society that could have some effect on the rates suicide." when a lof of factors are created out those conditions, such as

I just said I get that part of it! What I said I don't agree with is the other part, which I think some of the posts heavily imply including some of yours. It seems you flip flop on that as it is so I don't know where you really stand on that. Point being I get that part of it 100% and I have since the beginning. The part I disagree with is the implication that it's some sort of evolutionary trait from years of abuse, one that only a handful of races have developed whereas whites and native americans haven't.

 

[luchadork]

just to really throw a spanner in the works.

http://www.mindframe-media.info/for-media/reporting-suicide/facts-and-stats

aboriginal and torres strait islanders in australia have a suicide rate of 25.5 per 100k. holy shit. that is fucking horrific.

 

[luchadork]

fucking hell. its even worse than that

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/p...l-natsisps-strat-1~mental-natsisps-strat-1-ab

between 20 and 30yo, its 91 per 100k. the worst in the world. i am in shock.

 

[lightskintwin]

I just said I get that part of it! What I said I don't agree with is the other part, which I think some of the posts heavily imply including some of yours. It seems you flip flop on that as it is so I don't know where you really stand on that. Point being I get that part of it 100% and I have since the beginning. The part I disagree with is the implication that it's some sort of evolutionary trait from years of abuse.

Nobody suggested it's some genetic trait, but it could definitely have an effect on the social evolution of African Americans ability to survive in America. I amazed you seem so offended that the mere suggestion of centuries of a White male patriarchal system and societal expectations may have contributed even if it's less than 1 percent the increased spike in older White male suicide in the face of changing times.

For me, It's merely a factor I haven't ruled out, no matter how small it may be.

 

[RedSwirl]

I've read stuff talking about this.

On the privilege angle, basically, a lot of people seem to think minorities are more accustomed to economic hardship in the US and thus don't take it as hard. If your family's been poor as shit for generations that's not really much of a conscious drag every day. Whereas the white people seeing their economic system decline after only maybe a generation or two is more of a shock. My mom used to tell me her grandmother had to help "counsel" some white people during the great depression because they didn't know how to "be poor". Apparently something similar happened to Russian men in the years following the fall of the Soviet Union. Is there data to back any of this up though? I don't know.

And then there's the thing about family and friendships. Somebody found out that American straight white men have alarmingly few close friends, especially male friends, compared to other demographics. I also have a feeling that minorities in the US at least tend to maintain larger and more close-knit families but again, I don't have anything to back that up.

All that said, mental health issues definitely have somewhat of a stigma among some minority groups.

 

[msdstc]

Nobody suggested it's some genetic trait, but it could definitely have an effect on the social evolution of African Americans ability to survive in America. I amazed you seem so offended that the mere suggestion of centuries of a White male patriarchal system and societal expectations may have contributed even if it's less than 1 percent the increased spike in older White male suicide in the face of changing times.

For me, It's merely a factor I haven't ruled out, no matter how small it may be.

For the millionth time I told you I'm not offended by that and explained to you what I was insulted by, but you seem to keep repeating yourself, which leads me to repeat AGAIN that is not what I was responding to, because again I agree with that.

I also think it's pretty useless to talk about factors that contribute any amount whatsoever, because you can do that with anything. There are a million reasons why somebody will resort to suicide, we're not looking at individual cases here though, we're trying to discover why white have a rate more than double that of most minorities (except for native americans)

I think there are valid points like a lot of minorities having stronger support systems and how those came about. The overall concept of "we've gotten thick skin over the generations" falls apart with native americans and other outliers.

Could concepts like the patriarchy play a factor? I do think it could because of expectations and how those affect your development in your early years, but that's a case by case basis for the most part. Look at the stats posted just a post above about aboriginal and torres strait islanders in australia and their suicide rates being off the charts, much higher than that of whites or native americans. It's not some sense of entitlement or lack of resilience that is leading to that issue.

 

[jurgen]

Growing up black, I was kinda shocked how many of my white friends eventually admitted to having suicidal thoughts.

Everyone has struggles, weaknesses, etc. I know that sounds like a boring platitude but I scoff at people who say that being born white in America is like winning the lottery. There's plenty of people that hit the jackpot and eventually file bankruptcy.

 

[RuinerPrime]

I didn't read the entire thread so forgive me if this has been mentioned already. What is the statistic for mental illness such as deperssion being a factor of suicide rates based on race? I'm a white male with deperssion and think about suicide from time to time, I don't necessarily agree with it being linked to my race not being able to dealing with hardships.

 

[msdstc]

Nobody suggested it's some genetic trait, but it could definitely have an effect on the social evolution of African Americans ability to survive in America. I amazed you seem so offended that the mere suggestion of centuries of a White male patriarchal system and societal expectations may have contributed even if it's less than 1 percent the increased spike in older White male suicide in the face of changing times.

For me, It's merely a factor I haven't ruled out, no matter how small it may be.

Also not to be an ass, but you've been all over the place misinterpreting mine and other posts as well such as this.

No, my point is due to different historical paths that were based on race/economics, Blacks and Whites suffer different ailments hence the reason I bolded the so-called "Black on Black crime" being our older White male suicide

When the post you were quoting was scoffing at the concept of black on black crime. In no way did he imply black on black crime is the equivalent of "older white male suicide"