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Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts is better than Mega Man X
- Thread starter randomengine
- Start date
first post wins
Seven Force
Banned
I don't want to be a difficulty snob here, but I find it a bit hard to take your opinions on action platformers seriously here when you admit to not being able to get past the first stages of either game without cheats. A lot of what makes both games (and games in this genre in particular) great is learning each game's intricacies and I feel like using cheats to bypass those doesn't really put you in a position to (properly) criticize the games from a design standpoint.
My fucking man. I have the PC version of MMX. To this day, the SNES version sounds weird to me, the Soundblaster versions of the songs are the "right" versions.
My copy of MMX came with the capcom PC Fighter 6 pad, though.
this is the MMX music I remember:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRTeuYTrDWs
yuuup
Guess it must be a playstyle thing. I prefer charged shots on a lot of the bosses, unless they're easily open to attacks. I really got into the habit of Always Be Charging.
At any rate, I just pulled up Mega Man X and played Chill Penguin's stage. No upgrades or sub-weapons other than the mandatory dash. Took me 12 charged shots over the course of a minute and 10 seconds to beat him. And I missed some shots and got hit once. That's not really what I'd called a "bullet sponge"
I actually had Mega Man X for PC too. Mine came with a surprisingly awesome six button gamepad tho. I wish I knew what happened to it. :<
EDIT:
omg. I loved that gamepad. <3
randomengine
Banned
Well I can evaluate the level design, the graphics, the boss encounter design, the powerup design, the combat design, the music, the pacing, etc. all while using cheats. I still play as if I don't have the cheats on and do the best I can. The only thing I cannot measure is the level of frustration each game provides having to play the same areas over and over again. In fact, I did end up playing through SGG twice and found that I would rather go through it a 3rd and 4th time before I would want to go through MMX a 2nd time.
I still have mine. It still works. In fact, I have MMX installed on a 486 right now in front of me.
EDIT: In fact, I have a pic online:
And check it out, MMX is actually inserted in the pic, haha. I installed DOS and the game onto a CF Card using a CF->IDE kit, so that I could swap games out like cartridges. Then printed a label for the game.
Lucky. I still have the PC version on the shelf somewhere. But the gamepad has been lost to the abyss of time, and for that matter so has a PC that's compatible with it. >_>;
MMX on PC came with a GamePad? You all were GamePading it up while I was doing jumps and dashes on the arrow keys?
Neogaf ruined my childhood
:3 just kidding, arrow keys were badass
Seven Force
Banned
I'll concede obvious presentation aspects like graphics and music, but level and boss design are the kinds of things that cheats can definitely obscure the finer aspects of.
What kinds of cheats did you use? I feel like that would probably be important here.
You think jumps are "only for leet players" instead of recognizing that you don't have the correct power up to make said jump. The only time you really evaluated level design in this topic, you completely missed the point of the jump.
You said you couldn't beat the first level, this makes me think you seriously have not been able to figure out the boss attack patterns.
Your takes on the power ups in this thread have been wrong over and over again - and people keep pointing that out to you. You think they are necessary to beat the bosses. They aren't. And you obviously haven't picked up any of the subquest power ups.
How can you critique the "combat design" when you can't get it down well enough to beat a single boss?
Your views on pacing are odd, and sound rooted in frustration rather than actually feeling the heat of battle.
spazchicken
Member
Since when has anyone ever compared SGnG to MMX? Why try and start a thing now?
MightyHedgehog
Member
It's early morning Sunday, so this must be one of those drunk threads on GAF because someone just typed in that Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts is better in every way than Ghouls 'n Ghosts with no winky smiley or hint of joking.
I'd like to confuse cabbage with bok choy, sir!
LegionAgent
Member
After reading all the posts I think that this problems has more to do with your skill level in this kind of games. Mega Man X is totally doable with only X-Buster. The bosses aren't even that hard, most of them follow patterns that you can easily learn after fighting them 1 or 2 times. So, even though I try to be reasonable most of the time, I have to call bullshit on the OP.
One of my favorite things about MMX is that they made it 4 times - Once on SNES, once on PC, once on Gameboy Color, and then a big remake on the PSP.
And each are different and worth playing. It's awesome because it's one of my favorite games ever, and there are so many versions of it I can play that it doesn't get old. There is so much MMX1 content out there. It fucking rules!
And each are different and worth playing. It's awesome because it's one of my favorite games ever, and there are so many versions of it I can play that it doesn't get old. There is so much MMX1 content out there. It fucking rules!
Speaking of which a homage to Ghost and Goblins was just released for PC. Free download link in the youtube description.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTNwrLmYOoo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTNwrLmYOoo
LegionAgent
Member
I take your MM1 and raise you MM1 with buster only.
randomengine
Banned
For SGG I turned off the timer, infinite lives, and invincibility. I had to turn if off for a moment in one of the stages because the stage needed to register my presence. The timer was no big deal since I didn't dawdle. By the second playthrough, part of me felt I didn't need the invincibility, but who was I kidding. I really got adept at the jumping and landing right where I needed to. I could still die from falling obviously.
For MMX I had infinite lives and invincibility. I didn't use any energy cheats for the weapons, so their stock was limited. I found the enemies were harder to kill and filled up the screen much more than in SGG and therefore making progress was less fun and more annoying.
Ha, that's not really an homage, it straight up rips off graphics from the game.
Looks fun though.
Nope. It's not.
I've played both extensively, although I'll admit it's been much longer since I've played SG&G. Probably because MMX is a better game.
But Mega Man X not only excells in creating some of the most memorable gameplay of all time, but it also has possibly my favorite video game soundtrack ever made. Also, Megaman X always felt fair, where there were times in SG&G it felt like bullshit.
Not trying to downplay SG&G, it's a fantastic game, but MMX is above it.
I've played both extensively, although I'll admit it's been much longer since I've played SG&G. Probably because MMX is a better game.
But Mega Man X not only excells in creating some of the most memorable gameplay of all time, but it also has possibly my favorite video game soundtrack ever made. Also, Megaman X always felt fair, where there were times in SG&G it felt like bullshit.
Not trying to downplay SG&G, it's a fantastic game, but MMX is above it.
What I like about MMX's movements is how in control I feel like I am at any given moment thanks to the dask and how liberal the game is with letting you grab onto walls and scale them.
Levels like Storm Eagle's stage is awesome because it's huge and very vertical, letting you choose how you tackle the stage.
randomengine
Banned
Ahh, so that explains the hassling. It's just gonna be some salt, so not really interested in your opinion.
Also, if MMX is really hard at any moment, you can basically grind and make it easy. Need life? Need power for your weapons? Need to fill an e-tank? Enemies respawn infinitely. Just walk back and forth and get your fill.
Final level too hard? Just grind for a while and grab the Hadouken, and every remaining boss dies in 1 hit.
LegionAgent
Member
OP showing some real maturity ladies and gents
Derp - Super Ghouls n Ghosts is also one of my favorite games ever. In fact, I've played waaaaaay more GnG than Mega Man. I don't even really like the non-MMX games, and of the MMX series, I really only like MMX1 and MMX2 (and I only got MMX2 last year).
You're going to go real far if you discount the opinions of anybody who actually likes the games you're discussing. Especially when you don't play the games you talk about.
Yes! This.
Also what I liked about the X games was that they were brutally hard until something just clicked. A little trial and error tho. (expect to lose at least once each level due to some crazy boss patterns)
Finding all the parts for an upgrade. It felt good. No other game comes close except maybe metroid fusion and the like.
The gaea armor from x5 is still my favorite for some reason, although it wasn't that good tbh.
So, I didn't have an SNES growing up, I had a genesis, and played the X series mainly on PC and Sega Saturn. So, for a long time, the only X games I played were MMX1, MMX4, and MMX5.
Over the years, I played the others, but always liked MMX1 way, way more than the others. It just felt completely different.
but, as I said, I got MMX2 last christmas, and holy fuck that game is awesome. I dunno which I prefer, but they're both so incredible. MMX2 feels more like MMX1 than any of the other games. They are outstanding.
I think I like both equally, tbh.
First post nails it!
SixMachine
Member
I was interested in what the OP would say since I am a huge fan of both games since I owned both games on SNES as a child. Really disappointed he had to use cheats to beat them though because difficulty balancing is a huge part of a games design, it is why the stage, enemies, and hazards are the way they are, and effects the pacing and how the player acclimates to the game.
Also if you spam normal shots in Megaman games against bosses that is a horrible idea unless you were optimal in landing dash shots right when the invincible flash ends, which is a speed runner strat and something that needs a lot of practice to get down, so most people will generally charge shot to be effective. If you just spam pellets, you will only do 1 damage, then the rest of the barrage will be eaten by the iframes until it is gone, which also means that time in the flash could have been spent trying to dodge or get in a better position. It's better to hit and run until you really understand a pattern and get risky offensive shots in.
Also if you spam normal shots in Megaman games against bosses that is a horrible idea unless you were optimal in landing dash shots right when the invincible flash ends, which is a speed runner strat and something that needs a lot of practice to get down, so most people will generally charge shot to be effective. If you just spam pellets, you will only do 1 damage, then the rest of the barrage will be eaten by the iframes until it is gone, which also means that time in the flash could have been spent trying to dodge or get in a better position. It's better to hit and run until you really understand a pattern and get risky offensive shots in.
True Underdog
Member
This sounds way too "clean".
On topic: I beat MMX when I was six. I don't see how it can be considered hard. It was a pain in the ass at times when I was a kid but it was also damn fun.
There may be superior platforms to it but to this day, it remains my favorite and one of my all time favorite games.
FallingEdge
Member
real mature
NinjamicWZ
Banned
I always liked the Ghouls N Ghosts games but was never a big Mega Man fan. I can enjoy and very much appreciate them, though... especially that music, my gawd.
G&G definitely has some archaic flaws and sometimes rough arcade sensibilities, but for my money the whole motif, art style and play is just way more my thing, and always compelled me more to get good at it too. I really think it just comes down to what you like most as a theme... fantasy v scifi more or less.
Mega Man X doesn't really have the problems G&G games do and does some things extremely well that all games should do.
G&G definitely has some archaic flaws and sometimes rough arcade sensibilities, but for my money the whole motif, art style and play is just way more my thing, and always compelled me more to get good at it too. I really think it just comes down to what you like most as a theme... fantasy v scifi more or less.
Mega Man X doesn't really have the problems G&G games do and does some things extremely well that all games should do.
ha, to me, the SNES versions sound too "muffled"
Actually, coming out of a real soundblaster, it doesn't quite sound like that, either. You're right that it sounds "too clean" because that is running through an emulator like dosbox and sounds off.
I should record the original soundtrack off my 486 sometime.
Whats funny about the PC version of MMX is that the levels have slight differences. Like, the robots suits in the SNES version? They're omitted completely in the PC version. I didn't even know the game had robot suits until years later.
I like GnG for the same reason I like Castlevania. They play pretty similarly IMO. The way you have to be deliberate and purposeful for your jumps. You can never second guess a single jump in either game.
Which is why I'd say Super GnG is a better game than Super Castlevania - SCIV doesn't play anything like a castlevania game.
Of course, I feel like Dracula X: Rondo of Blood is better than any GnG game, personally.
They released Ultimate Ghosts n Goblins years ago, which was 2.5d.
and before that, there was Maximo: Ghosts to Glory, which was basically GnG in 3D.
True Underdog
Member
Regardless of the differences we grew up with, I think we can both agree on the fact that it's a fucking great soundtrack. I'm listening to the one you linked and I don't dislike it at all. It's just weird to me.
I remember one of my close friends in elementary school having X and X3 on his PC. Blew my mind. The cinematics X3 had on PC were great.
I still don't have X3... well that's not true. I have the X collection, and I have the European version of X3 on the saturn, but I haven't played either because I want to play it on the SNES like it was intended.
Is it more like MMX4, or MMX1 & 2?
Funnily enough, I was just thinking about Super Ghouls n' Ghosts' interesting approach to difficulty: If you know where to stand and which item to use for a given boss, it's a lot easier than its reputation lets on, though it's by no means a cakewalk. The problem, of course, is that the difficulty relies on the player being informed on the game rather than fair level design, something the GnG series has always struggled with to an extent whereas Mega Man's "choose which level to proceed" approach is a lot more friendly since it lets the player choose a different stage if they're having problems beating another one and, in X's case, enjoyable for the exploration it allows via the various weapons, items and hidden secrets. It also features a better presentation and more solid controls with a difficulty that, without needing to know every part of the game, is more fair but still manages to be challenging.
As for the weakest game in the Gargoyle's Quest trilogy's claim to being the best of the three Capcom titles... it's just ok. More generic level design than the previous two GQ games (and generic "fire/forest/wind/ice" level in general), the complete lack of balance for the various crests (namely the air gargoyle) and poor placement of items, along with an egregious amount of slowdown, make for an average experience that can't compete with either of the two mentioned games or even the previous two Gargoyle's Quest games. Not even a contest, unless we're talking about looks (and, again, ignoring the massive amount of slowdown) in which case it is a gorgeous game that bests them all.
Except for Spark Mandrill. That boss is a complete joke.
As for the weakest game in the Gargoyle's Quest trilogy's claim to being the best of the three Capcom titles... it's just ok. More generic level design than the previous two GQ games (and generic "fire/forest/wind/ice" level in general), the complete lack of balance for the various crests (namely the air gargoyle) and poor placement of items, along with an egregious amount of slowdown, make for an average experience that can't compete with either of the two mentioned games or even the previous two Gargoyle's Quest games. Not even a contest, unless we're talking about looks (and, again, ignoring the massive amount of slowdown) in which case it is a gorgeous game that bests them all.
No you can't. You cannot make a proper evaluation of any of that stuff unless you actually engage the gameplay properly. Level design isn'y about aesthetics, it is about challenge. You can't evaluate the level design of a game without fairly analyzing how it impacts gameplay. And Mega Man X, like most good Mega Man games, has brilliant level design. It is the kind of level design that can be challenging at first, but as you develop your skills, it quickly becomes possible to get through without taking a hit. This is doubly true for the boss fights. For an unskilled player, it is perfectly possible to beat a Mega Man X boss by simply spamming the effective weapon and damage racing the boss. A skilled player can beat bosses using nothing but the X buster while taking no damage. That is the result of the game's excellent boss design. The challenging and exciting boss fights are the biggest appeal of the series to be honest. It's why the boss rematch rush is such an honored tradition.
Look, Mega Man X is a very easy platformer. Most Mario games are significantly harder than it. Other than a few hard parts in the final stages, I would rate it a complete beginner level platformer. If you had to resort to cheats, then you probably didn't even try in the first place.
You can't really directly compare the Mega Man series with the G&G series in the first place. I can get A and S ranks on most Mega Man Zero stages, and I have mostly beaten some X games with no upgrades and without using boss weapons. I still can't clear that damn raft stage in Super Ghouls and Ghosts. It is simply a case that I am no good at the different jump physics used in Super Ghouls and Ghosts. Despite both being action platformers, I don't think you can directly compare the two series because of these huge differences in fundamental game mechanics.
If you haven't engaged with the games enough to see these major differences, then I really don't know what to say.