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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U DLC |OT| Mewtwo Strikes Back

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H3XAntiStyle said:
Wait a second... THAT MEANS YOU BASTARDS HAVE BEEN PICKING DUCK HUNT!!!

I hate that stage so much.
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I've been picking it a lot because I need to figure out what stages are the most important for Mewtwo to ban in ranbats. I thought Castle Seige would be one, but it actually has some nice advantages for Mewtwo amidst the annoying platforms that block projectiles.

H3XAntiStyle said:
"Oh you're going to -- nevermind here's the dog to lift you up out of float".

"Nice turnip you have, it'd be a shame if a duck randomly had a crash with it".

"Here's a bush".
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Plus being zoomed out. :-P

TWILT said:
Ahh, can definitely tell I've been slacking off on my Pikachu. So many SDs/bad forward rolls x_x GGs Beats as usual. Great Olimar; it was infuriating to fight against. It's okay to pick a stage that isn't Battlefield by the way :P
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We should do ranbats like...right now. Hahaha.

H3XAntiStyle said:
Hrm.... Maybe Robin... But I get the feeling, that'd be right in there with the Palutena thing...
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You want to pick a character that is the opposite of Peach. Robin is in the same region of character playstyles. Go with ZSS. Or, hell, learn both.

Beats said:
I hate the Duck Hunt stage because of the zoomed out and fixed camera. So, I never pick it! : p

also I sent a replay to some of you. : ]



Good games! I think I understand the Pikachu/Olimar matchup a little better. It's still difficult though lol. Yeah, I always pick Battlefield because I'm usually just mashing A/Start at the stage select screen. It's only because I want to get right back into a match. : >
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Ditto, though I've started going through the various other stages to learn Mewtwo on a more varied plane of play.

McNum said:
Honestly, ever since Melee, I've preferred Zelda over Sheik. I know Sheik can do crazy-awesome things, but what use is that if I can't make her do crazy-awesome things? Zelda on the other hand, I can do the basics for. Still need to drill some combos and such, but first I learn how to not die fast, then I learn how to get openings. And THEN I worry about combos. Can't combo when you're dead.

Anywho, I actually unlocked all but Phantom Breaker for her through Trophy Rush. So, anyone here want to check my thinking here?

Din's Fire is bad in general, but the two customs have their uses. The quick long range one to pressure at long range on stage and the big slow one to put a mine in the path of the opponent's recovery. I'm partial to the latter because my offstage play is still not quite there. I don't actually expect to hit with it. Just force you to look at something that isn't me for a second. Also possible: Drop a fireball at zero range. This space belongs to Zelda now.

As for the Naryus. Rejection may or may not have potential. It still reflects, it doesn't do damage, and it's slow. But it turns the opponent around. Is that a good thing? Passion... is not a reflector. Pass.

The Phantoms, well, haven't tried Breaker yet, but Striker pretty much puts a wall right then and there in front of Zelda. A wall with a sword. That's rather basic stage control, but Zelda doesn't like being rushed, so maybe?

But the one I'm really curious about is Faeroe's Squall. Con: Zelda's biggest KO move disappears. Pro: Is a freaking combo breaker! Seriously, it has nearly no startup before the wind starts, so if you have a 1-frame gap, Zelda pushes you away. And if you hit her after that, she doesn't even teleport, she's right there, at medium range, where she wants to be. So, um... This is useful, but I don't think I'm at a level where combo breaking is something I have the mental surplus for yet. I should probably stick with Faeroe's Wind and the elevator for now.

Do we have anyone here who knows some Zelda who can double-check my thinking there?
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I think the fast and small Din's fire is worthless. Yes, it is faster, but speed isn't really Din's Fire's problem. The default is a good choice, and gets the same job done. The big heavy version's land mine property is worthwhile. I think both of those are worth considering.

I think her default up B is the best - that KO move comes in handy a lot if you learn how to use it.

Neutral B is matchup-based. Not every character has projectiles, so why always have a reflector? I've played good Zelda players that abuse the explosive version.

Phantom...I like the version that always travels out far, just because the one up close can always be punished if it is blocked.

NamikazeBurst said:
Guess I am done being a Yoshi main.
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Pfft, no.

Monster Zero said:
East coast Florida, sucks, usually clear on gamepad
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Tell me how much Florida sucks! :-D
 
Puruzi said:
Yo Hyper Smash is comedy gold
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GGs. That custom DK up B is the most bullshit thing I've seen in a long time, though! Why is that even a thing. There's like an extremely specific window to dodge it in the air, and it can be difficult to punish when platforms are in play. It's so weird.
 
FluxWaveZ said:
GGs. That custom DK up B is the most bullshit thing I've seen in a long time, though! Why is that even a thing. There's like an extremely specific window to dodge it in the air, and it can be difficult to punish when platforms are in play. It's so weird.
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I only used it because I thought the same thing about the fucking spindashes. Nerf Sonic pls
 
FluxWaveZ said:
GGs. That custom DK up B is the most bullshit thing I've seen in a long time, though! Why is that even a thing. There's like an extremely specific window to dodge it in the air, and it can be difficult to punish when platforms are in play. It's so weird.
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Plus it has super armor and can KO - lol!

Now you know what it's like when someone has a brainless move where the character spins around and beats everything.
 
Puruzi said:
I only used it because I thought the same thing about the fucking spindashes.
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Haha, it actually makes me think of the spin dashes and WFT's custom up B that kinda works the same. I'm not against you using it though, to be clear, especially since it might be something I'll come across against other players. It's just so crazy how effective it is when it seems like it shouldn't be. Maybe there's something I'm not getting with it; I was pretty bad at dodging it in the air.

I was doing fine against it when I was adapting and learning to "ride the wind." Said wind is pretty vicious, though, and blows me away with ease. That thing's a pretty crazy move, overall.
 
I still REALLY REALLY hate Zelda's Up B lol.

GGs Oid! You have a great Marth; he's your main? Those tipppers really hurt lol. I wanted to bring out my Shulk to have a fun sword battle, but I really wanted to focus on my Pikachu lol. Slowly, but surely cracking the rust...
 
Good games dude. Your Pikachu is really good!

Yo you totally should've brought out the Shulk! I love that matchup almost as much as Marth dittos! Also I wouldn't have had to deal with Pikachu's up-B, which I really don't know what to do with. Particularly on Battlefield with all them ledge-cancelling shenanigans.
 
Puruzi said:
I only used it because I thought the same thing about the fucking spindashes. Nerf Sonic pls
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tumblr_m36gvrCaM11ruisdao1_500.gif
 
Karsticles said:
Plus it has super armor and can KO - lol!

Now you know what it's like when someone has a brainless move where the character spins around and beats everything.
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I don't believe in brainless moves, that's a weak mindset. Everything can be adapted towards, one just needs to learn how. It was pretty much the first time I came across that move used in succession and effectively, so it really took me by surprise.

It was especially bad going against it with Rosalina, too, because Luma is knocked away so easily by it.
 
FluxWaveZ said:
Maybe there's something I'm not getting with it; I was pretty bad at dodging it in the air.
I was doing fine against it when I was adapting and learning to "ride the wind." Said wind is pretty vicious, though, and blows me away with ease. That thing's a pretty crazy move, overall.
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https://youtu.be/vvIj5mo7HfA?t=462

That might help you learn how that custom works more, and I do agree that Kong Cyclone is stupid good. It's quite literally a straight upgrade to the regular Up B in every way imaginable
 
FluxWaveZ said:
I don't believe in brainless moves, that's a weak mindset. Everything can be adapted towards, one just needs to learn how. It was pretty much the first time I came across that move used in succession and effectively, so it really took me by surprise.

It was especially bad going against it with Rosalina, too, because Luma is knocked away so easily by it.
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Brainless = can be used with 0 consequence over and over again. That's spindash. Sonic can do it whenever the hell he wants against Bowser, and Bowser has NO answer for it unless you decide to release it full screen. Bowser has 3 options: Down B, Dtilt, and Flamethrower. All have too much startup to do on reaction from midscreen. Everything else clanks, and Sonic wins post-clank wars.

How is a move that requires no critical thought about potential consequences not, by definition, a brainless move?

Games have moves that are too good, and it's okay to say they are too good.
 
Puruzi said:
https://youtu.be/vvIj5mo7HfA?t=462

That might help you learn how that custom works more, and I do agree that Kong Cyclone is stupid good. It's quite literally a straight upgrade to the regular Up B in every way imaginable
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Ooh, up B! Why didn't I think of that when I was using Sonic.

Heh, and the #1 custom move, huh. Glad I'm discovering it now; thanks for the video.

Karsticles said:
Brainless = can be used with 0 consequence over and over again. That's spindash. Sonic can do it whenever the hell he wants against Bowser, and Bowser has NO answer for it unless you decide to release it full screen. Bowser has 3 options: Down B, Dtilt, and Flamethrower. All have too much startup to do on reaction from midscreen. Everything else clanks, and Sonic wins post-clank wars.

How is a move that requires no critical thought about potential consequences not, by definition, a brainless move?

Games have moves that are too good, and it's okay to say they are too good.
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Of course there are good moves, but I cannot and will not adopt the mindset that there are things that can be used with 0 consequence over and over again. Never. That leads me nowhere, and I believe every single tactic and move has a solution and a way to adapt to it, no matter how difficult it is. If it keeps working, it's the fault of the player who keeps getting hit by it, not the move itself. That's what I believe and how I choose to improve.
 
FluxWaveZ said:
Ooh, up B! Why didn't I think of that when I was using Sonic.

Heh, and the #1 custom move, huh. Glad I'm discovering it now; thanks for the video.



Of course there are good moves, but I cannot and will not adopt the mindset that there are things that can be used with 0 consequence over and over again. Never. That leads me nowhere, and I believe every single tactic and move has a solution and a way to adapt to it, no matter how difficult it is. If it keeps working, it's the fault of the player who keeps getting hit by it, not the move itself, and that's what I believe and how I choose to improve.
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It's up to you if you don't want to accept facts, haha. I sat down with my wife for 2 hours while she mashed Sonic's down B - there are no answers to it for Bowser. None. You just have to shield.

Also, your perspective is plain bullshit, and in no way matches reality. Plenty of fighting games have characters with tools that just can't be beaten. As an extreme example, do you really think you just need "the right attitude" to beat Ivan Ooze?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-g4TqMFemY

Or ST Akuma, if you want a serious example?

Do Bowser players in Melee just need to "think harder" about beating Fox?
 
Karsticles said:
It's up to you if you don't want to accept facts, haha. I sat down with my wife for 2 hours while she mashed Sonic's down B - there are no answers to it for Bowser. None. You just have to shield.
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Shield and punish out of the dash? Grab or dash attack? It isn't an invincible move that has no answers in my opinion.
 
Karsticles said:
It's up to you if you don't want to accept facts, haha. I sat down with my wife for 2 hours while she mashed Sonic's down B - there are no answers to it for Bowser. None. You just have to shield.

Also, your perspective is plain bullshit, and in no way matches reality. Plenty of fighting games have characters with tools that just can't be beaten. As an extreme example, do you really think you just need "the right attitude" to beat Ivan Ooze?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-g4TqMFemY
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I guess I'm talking about fighting games that actually attempt to be balanced? But even if a high level Bowser player wouldn't be able to punish Sonic's down B with ease—which is something I doubt—how does blocking it contradict what I said? That's an answer to dealing with the move: blocking. Just like the answer for dealing with certain moves would be dodging, or escaping with a quick up B. I'm not just talking about an "unpunishable move," I'm talking about any valid answer to dealing with a certain move. And I think there is one for every single attack in Smash 4.

There are no moves with no answers, and I think anyone who believes otherwise is the delusional one, not me.
 
Gucci Messiah said:
Shield and punish out of the dash? Grab or dash attack? It isn't an invincible move that has no answers in my opinion.
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Sonic's down B is multi-hit. You can't stop shielding until he has already passed through you. If it just hit once, then Bowser could Fortress punish, which would be a reasonable compromise on the move.

FluxWaveZ said:
I guess I'm talking about fighting games that actually attempt to be balanced? But even if a high level Bowser player wouldn't be able to punish Sonic's down B with ease—which is something I doubt—how does blocking it contradict what I said? That's an answer to dealing with the move: blocking. Just like the answer for dealing with certain moves would be dodging, or escaping with a quick up B. I'm not just talking about an "unpunishable move," I'm talking about any valid answer to dealing with a certain move. And I think there is one for every single one in Smash 4.
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I didn't say Sonic's down B always wins matches, I said it's a brainless move. I.e. there's no reason not to use it. It's always good to use, because there are no possible negative consequences.

I'm not even complaining about Sonic. Don't confuse me analyzing a character for complaining. I play Mewtwo now, so I have an answer in the form of Shadow Ball. Having AN OPTION to beat that move feels incredible. Finally. Even when I played Bowser, I did pretty well against Sonic players, but I had to outplay them significantly to win.

Boney said:
Had to deal with that bs all morning
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You want to play sometime tonight? I'm dying to see if that adapter helped.
 
Karsticles said:
I didn't say Sonic's down B always wins matches, I said it's a brainless move. I.e. there's no reason not to use it. It's always good to use, because there are no possible negative consequences.
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You think that all a Sonic would have to do to beat a pro level Bowser player is spam down B for the duration of an entire match?
 
FluxWaveZ said:
You think that all a Sonic would have to do to beat a pro level Bowser player is spam down B for the duration of an entire match?
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That's not what makes a move brainless. You're giving the word a new definition. I've been very clear that brainless =/= "wins the match all on its own" since my first post.

Also, you saying "pro level" Bowser player makes it sound like there's some noticeable gap between the best Bowser players and me. There isn't.
 
Gonna watch the fight and I'll probably head to bed after it. Will be early on tomorrow! Really hope it'll help but I think there'll be some lag.

Regarding spin dash, can you get a solid back air if he jumps out of it too early? I really don't see what options bowser has in a match like that. Everything is an over committal against a charCter that can change momentum trajectory and shield at any time.

Would a retreating fair hit low enough?
 
Karsticles said:
That's not what makes a move brainless. You're giving the word a new definition. I've been very clear that brainless =/= "wins the match all on its own" since my first post.

Also, you saying "pro level" Bowser player makes it sound like there's some noticeable gap between the best Bowser players and me. There isn't.
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Er, alright, but I think I've been pretty clear that I'm saying the same. Semantics about the word "brainless" aside, what I was saying is that there's no one move that will be the determining factor in an opponent's victory. You compared DK's custom up B to how you feel about Sonic's spin dashes, but that's not how I feel about that move. During my set with Puruzi, for example, I used a variety of characters against that DK from Rosalina to Villager to WFT, trying to figure out different ways to adapt to that move. That was pretty fun.

And I guess I wasn't aware that you're on the level of the best Bowser players out there...?
 
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