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[VlaudTheImpaler]

Again? What is your point?

Should gaming enthusiasts also not be concerned about how their consoles/pcs come to market? Only about the devs that make their games?

My point is that for this particular issue, this is one of the best places to talk about it. There are definitely gaming industry eyes pointed at this website so an issue on workplace mistreatment that pertains to gaming is the right thing to focus on here. Not other consumer products unrelated to gaming.

This is how OP is choosing to take a stand and bring the issue to light and make it better known. It really should be the perfect place to do it outside of a journalist website.

To the last part of your post... When did I ever say that? In fact, one post up I even encouraged you to bring it to light if that's really where you want to spend your energy because you are actually concerned and interested in it.

You have to understand, not everyone is going to be as mentally engaged in a certain area or even have the same amount of insight which translates to power to effect change. The OP is a dev, a 10 year vet in fact. This issue is going to be more personal to him and he is going to be able to affect change in this area much more than another where he doesn't have so much inside knowledge. This is what is called an opportunity to effect change. When someone is willing to speak out about things they have personally witnessed and have more ability to effect change than others. When people rally behind these individuals movements have a chance to start which would actually do something more immediately than becoming a mountain man that doesn't buy anything mass produced.

 

[IISANDERII]

By all means, take a stand and fight for what you believe in but simply not buying 1 copy of RDR2 isn't going to change anything because if it's anything like GTAV, 80 million other people will. Even if you somehow made this huge news and manage to convince 40 million people to not buy a copy, that's still 40 million copies sold. Figure out a different way to make a difference or try to spread the message. What is that way? I have no idea.

A loss of $2 billion in sales won't change anything? Really, not one single thing? Wtf am I reading

 

[Kimawolf]

I understand OP, i resisted buying EA games for the longest due to them basically buying studios and just firing people enmasse.

Gamers as a whole simply don't care enough about the people making the games to collectively do anything about it. If they had the same passion they have with these almost slave like working conditions as they had with ridding the internet of Gamergate or any other issue, companies would change their tunes quickly.

But Gamergate didn't affect their precious game so they didn't care. Actually collectively taking a stand against a really bad actor who abuses employees? Nah they need their Call of Duty of GTAV.

 

[Nista]

All I know is my former R* friends are all much happier and less stressed after they left the company. Especially the ones with families.

Nothing there is going to change until the entire company ends up under new management. Unless they end up breaking CA labor laws and end up in court or something.

I personally will buy a copy of the game, because the salaried employees will get bonuses based on launch sales. But heck if I'd feed into the money pit of microtransactions which only lines T2/R* corporate pockets.

 

[z3phon]

Last week, when Bungie talked about the people "killing themselves" to make sure the game was ready in September, my first thought was "it's okay, I'd rather you delay it than make people do that."

but it's telling that the general assumption is that AAA work is rough and That's The Way It Has To Be.

Welcome to jobs where you have to meet deadlines and don't have enough resources allocated

Pretty much. OP than you shouldnt buy most games or watch most VFX heavy movies If you plan to stick with that attitude.

 

[Weltall Zero]

If we are going to combat poor workplace conditions, the discussion shouldn't be limited to first world manifestations of the issue.

"And since that's a lot of work, I'm going to do neither".

You really showed us, man.

 

[Budi]

I'd be willing to pay bit more for my games to have better working conditions for the workers. I could feel better about myself and about the industry I choose to support, when people aren't worked to the bone. Unfortunately any extra revenue isn't likely to go and improve that.

But boycotting something over this is hard, not only because I like to play games, but I don't think the right message gets through.

 

[Alebrije]

Well, just hope those people working on R* get good salaries; their working conditions are similar to other industries , saddly it's how Neoliberal economy works.

 

[jonscrambler]

This thread has taught me that the amount of people who don't understand work life balance is scarily large.

I am a software developer and I do understand work/life balance and it's important to me, so I don't take jobs that expect me to work 60-80 hours a week, which many startups and game companies expect you to. you or I may find these kind of jobs unappealing but many (some) young CS grads are fine with these kind of jobs, because they find the work rewarding and pay well and they have no family responsibilities. nobody's forcing them to take these jobs they can find less demanding jobs that pay less.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Pretty much. OP than you shouldnt buy most games or watch most VFX heavy movies If you plan to stick with that attitude.

"Attitude". For fuck's sake.

Also? He should do precisely whatever the fuck he wants. Am I the only one finding tremendous hilarity at the almost full overlap between people accusing others of being righteous and people telling others what to do?

This entire topic reminds me of all the people criticising my GF's cat rescue and adoption service because "children are starving, why do you care about cats?". People who probably haven't lifted a finger to help either, of course.

 

[Trup1aya]

So OP should either tackle every labor injustice related to video games and consumer electronics or nothing at all. Got it.

Guess what MLK, you're a hypocrite because people get mistreated in Armenia too!

Strawman argument?

I never said anything of the sort. Boycotting Rockstar San Diego does nothing to combat gaming industries labor injustices because the mere act buying gaming equipment supports this industry's labor injustices.

If MLK boycotted benefactors of some racists practices, while still financially supporting other equal benefactors of racist practices, you might have a point.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

"Attitude". For fuck's sake.

Also? He should do precisely whatever the fuck he wants. Am I the only one finding tremendous hilarity at the almost full overlap between people accusing others of being righteous and people telling others what to do?

No se, a lo mejor a los españoles se nos da mejor este tipo de cosas, quien sabe.

 

[z3phon]

"Attitude". For fuck's sake.

Also? He should do precisely whatever the fuck he wants. Am I the only one finding tremendous hilarity at the almost full overlap between people accusing others of being righteous and people telling others what to do?

O K.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Strawman argument?

I never said anything of the sort. Boycotting Rockstar San Diego does nothing to combat gaming industries labor injustices because the mere act buying gaming equipment supports this industry's labor injustices.

If MLK boycotted benefactors of some racists practices, while still financially supporting other equal benefactors of racist practices, you might have a point.

According to your own argument, anyone boycotting a racist company is a hypocrite if they don't boycott all racist companies.

 

[IISANDERII]

Well, just hope those people working on R* get good salaries; their working conditions are similar to other industries , saddly it's how Neoliberal economy works.

Except it's not a neoliberal economy, not even in an undemocratic country like the US. Gaming development may be regulated like a neoliberal industry, and that's why it needs to be regulated more in line with other industries.

 

[night814]

Big game development is shitty, it's blotted and the publishers are only interested in the money. That's their perogative, they are companies that want to make money. It's when you hear things behind the scenes though that can really turn you off a game, and that's what the OP is saying. I agree with OP completely, don't give them your money if you want things to change. The last full priced game I bought was BotW, I couldn't tell you what it was before that probably something 3ds a few years ago, but that's what you have to do if you want things to change. Change your own habits to reflect your opinions.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I apoligize if that came out rude.
My point is it seems like people are making this sound like a uncommon problem but it infact is how the industry works.

How about you read the fucking thread? Thanks, bye.

 

[Shadow Puppetry]

Anyone can make a Glassdoor account and spread lies. I've witnessed that a few years ago.

 

[z3phon]

How about you read the fucking thread? Thanks, bye.

Bye

 

[Trup1aya]

"And since that's a lot of work, I'm going to do neither".

You really showed us, man.

Yeah, that's something I said.

Hey if boycotting a single dev, while continuing to spend your money in support of similar work practices within this industry and every other industry makes you feel better, have at it. It's the thought that counts.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

I apoligize if that came out rude.
My point is it seems like people are making this sound like a uncommon problem but it infact is how the industry works.

Im a texture artist, when its crunch time i need to do over time. Yes i could stand up and not work the 50-60 hours when deadline is coming up but then that simply means im out of a job as soon as the project is over, replaced by someone else.
And this work environment is present in most AAA studios.

No offense taken! I dont know how long youve been in the industry, but not most AAA studios, to my knowledge, go this far in how they treat their employees. This is a pretty extreme case and Im well aware of how other studios operate.

 

[Weltall Zero]

No se, a lo mejor a los españoles se nos da mejor este tipo de cosas, quien sabe.

Considerando quién está en el gobierno ahora mismo, como mínimo caben dudas al respecto de la conciencia social y laboral del español medio... :/
But let's not use Cervantes' language in an English forum, it's not polite to the rest of GAF.

 

[Taker34]

Anyone can make a Glassdoor account and spread lies. I've witnessed that a few years ago.

How about reading the first post? These working conditions aren't even a huge secret for those who know (former) R* employees - even I heard from this a few years back and it's the sad reality.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

"Attitude". For fuck's sake.

Also? He should do precisely whatever the fuck he wants. Am I the only one finding tremendous hilarity at the almost full overlap between people accusing others of being righteous and people telling others what to do?

All I can think of is If you could somehow mix these two together...

Spoiler

+

Spoiler

 

[Weltall Zero]

Yeah, that's something I said.

No, it's actually something you do, which is rather more important.

Hey if boycotting a single dev, while continuing to spend your money in support of similar work practices makes you feel better, have at it. It's the thought that counts.

1) I knew you would have no actual response to that argument either; I just expected you'd ignore it, like you did with the others.
2) If it's the thought that counts, then the OP still counts more than you have.
3) It's ironic to talk of "making one feel better", when it's plain for everyone that's what you've trying to do for the entirety of the thread: to feel good and justified for doing absolutely nothing at all.

But we agree on one thing; this thread is positively dripping with hypocrisy.

 

[Kthulhu]

I really hope programmers and other types of people working in game development will unionize someday. Especially considering the rising costs of AAA game development and how that impacts their jobs.

 

[Boss Man]

As a developer, this is why I'd never go to the gaming side. It's crazy that people don't leave all the time.

Idk how the salaries aren't crazy high

 

[Milly Osworth]

The list of things to boycot based on working conditions is probably endless. Youd be stuck with kicking a rock as entertainment.

 

[Carnby]

I don't think it would be honest of me to boycott Red Dead 2 because of a bad work place environment while I continue to buy other goods made with slave labor.

 

[Loris146]

Friedman would be proud.

Did not know about these poor conditions. It really sucks.

 

[Weltall Zero]

The list of things to boycot based on working conditions is probably endless. Youd be stuck with kicking a rock as entertainment.

Thanks for that thought, in five pages nobody thought of that.

Also not true. Indie games are usually a work of love by self-employed people (I should know). Just another reason to give them a chance!

 

[totowhoa]

In lieu of proper unions, I'd love for the industry to put together a list of ethical game developers (you'd need to define what ethical means, though). Even an aggregate list of devs by Glassdoor reviews could be a starting point, but this wouldn't do much for international developers... I think. I'm not actually sure of Glassdoor's reach/activity outside of the United States.

 

[Sanke__]

Sounds like a standard large American corporation

 

[spazchicken]

Almost every company or company affiliated with that company in some capacity has a reason to be boycotted.

Even if you buy it used, the money is still going to some scumbag one way or another unless you risk getting axe murdered by a private seller on Craigslist.

But now you just gave an axe murderer your head and $50.

 

[phant0m]

Good for you, man.

 

[ISOM]

Anyone can make a Glassdoor account and spread lies. I've witnessed that a few years ago.

Anyone can but multiple people?

 

[SmoothRunningGun]

I won't buy it because I didn't like the last game so count me in. But really we shouldn't be buying iphones or ps4s if were not buying stuff based on labor abuses.

 

[Mechazawa]

Pretty much. OP than you shouldnt buy most games or watch most VFX heavy movies If you plan to stick with that attitude.

The list of things to boycot based on working conditions is probably endless. Youd be stuck with kicking a rock as entertainment.

This mentality is so absurd. We don't have to lap up every god damn thing that gets put in front of us. We can pick and choose our battles.

 

[Trup1aya]

No, it's actually something you do, which is rather more important.



1) I knew you would have no actual response to that argument either; I just expected you'd ignore it, like you did with the others.
2) If it's the thought that counts, then the OP still counts more than you have.
3) It's ironic to talk of "making one feel better", when it's plain for everyone that's what you've trying to do for the entirety of the thread: to feel good and justified for doing absolutely nothing at all.

But we agree on one thing; this thread is positively dripping with hypocrisy.

You didn't make an argument. You made some assumptions and some generalizations. You HAVE NO IDEA what I do.

I agree, the thread is dripping with hypocrisy.

I've got nothing against folks who want to "fight" for the quality of life of gaming devs... just know that the people who mine the minerals that go into your PCs and consoles do so with guns to their head.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I don't think it would be honest of me to boycott Red Dead 2 because of a bad work place environment while I continue to buy other goods made with slave labor.

One has to have quite the... interesting concept of honesty, when it's one that forces you to support both slave labor and exploitation of developers. "Wouldn't want some victims to feel less exploited than the others, wouldn't be fair".

The amazing thing is that I'm sure these kind of people are the same that recoil in horror at the idea of piracy. I mean, if your concept of "honesty" means you have to take the convenient and morally questionable option equally in every case, why are you even paying for games? Shouldn't it be more "honest" to steal them? I mean, you clearly don't give a fuck about their devs anyway...

 

[Mooreberg]

Are there any upper tier studios that are notable for NOT having major crunch times? Between publishers announcing make believe release dates, and the thread about companies deliberately avoiding hiring more people, it hardly comes off as surprising. This instance is crazy because it is about a game that is probably releasing eight years after the last installment.

 

[Human Trashcan]

Yeah, that's something I said.

Hey if boycotting a single dev, while continuing to spend your money in support of similar work practices within this industry and every other industry makes you feel better, have at it. It's the thought that counts.

Except OP is actually doing something so saying "it's the thought that counts" doesn't really apply at all.

Every post like this is basically just a poor attempt at whataboutism at best. Or they're trying to make themselves feel better for not doing anything. Just own it, dude. But don't try to tell someone else what they're doing is worthless when you're doing even less.

 

[totowhoa]

Just another, semi-related note.

This is a BIG reason why healthcare shouldn't be tied to employment. Rockstar has a lot of people by the balls here - especially if they're immediately reliant on that benefit.

 

[stalker]

I understand and fully respect the OP premise. More exposure of these situations is more than welcome in a forum like this in my opinion.

The problem I find with your exposition OP is that you present it as a consumer decision ("will not buy") while in reality your stance is as a colleague. It would make more sense if you had titled "I would never work on RDR2 even if I could". You actually mentioned that at some point.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

You didn't make an argument. You made some assumptions and some generalizations. You HAVE NO IDEA what I do.

I agree, the thread is dripping with hypocrisy.

I've got nothing against folks who want to "fight" for the quality of life of gaming devs... just know that the people who mine the minerals that go into your PCs and consoles do so with guns to their head.

Sooo, do you want me to buy RDR2 then? Because your other point has been made, loud and clear.

I understand and fully respect the OP premise. More exposure of these situations is more than welcome in a forum like this in my opinion.

The problem I find with your exposition OP is that you present it as a consumer decision ("will not buy") while in reality your stance is as a colleague. It would make more sense if you had titled "I would never work on RDR2 even if I could". You actually mentioned that at some point.

I mean, GAF will find ways to derail any thread,, thanks for the thought though.

 

[MoonFrog]

Just another, semi-related note.

This is a BIG reason why healthcare shouldn't be tied to employment. Rockstar has a lot of people by the balls here - especially if they're immediately reliant on that benefit.

Compounded by encouraging health deterioration per the OP.

 

[totowhoa]

Compounded by encouraging health deterioration per the OP.

Great point. Ugh.

 

[Weltall Zero]

You didn't make an argument. You made some assumptions and some generalizations. You HAVE NO IDEA what I do.

Are you going to try to convince me that they guy that has been consistently defending the notion that it's impossible to boycott every shitty practice and immoral to boycott only some of them actually does anything at all? By all means be my guest and regal us with the comprehensive list of all the ways you fight injustice, rather than hoping that implication and vagueness (AND CAPS) will paint you in any better light.

I agree, the thread is dripping with hypocrisy.

I've got nothing against folks who want to "fight" for the quality of life of gaming devs... just know that the people who mine the minerals that go into your PCs and consoles do so with guns to their head.

And yet you care little enough about that (if it's even true) that you haven't mentioned it until someone made you feel unconfortable.

 

[half a moon]

Are you still going to buy consoles, smartphones, and shop at amazon? Assembly and warwhouse working conditions are very poor.

 

[Carnby]

One has to have quite the... interesting concept of honesty, when it's one that forces you to support both slave labor and exploitation of developers. "Wouldn't want some victims to feel less exploited than the others, wouldn't be fair".

The amazing thing is that I'm sure these kind of people are the same that recoil in horror at the idea of piracy. I mean, if your concept of "honesty" means you have to take the convenient and morally questionable option equally in every case, why are you even paying for games? Shouldn't it be more "honest" to steal them? I mean, you clearly don't give a fuck about their devs anyway...

Nice fallacy fella.