Support NeoGAF

[Barack Lesnar]

Oh, man!

Oh damn.

“To be completely blunt and honest, there’s no way that the Wii U processor is ‘horrible and slow’ compared to other platforms. I think that comment was just 4A trying to find a scapegoat for a simple business decision on their part.”

Remember this thread

I don't understand, did none of you guys read this:

“If you’re basing this simply on processor speed, then it’s not next generation,” he says.

lol

The original Metro comment was strictly about how fast the CPU was and Hayashi just confirmed it.

The sentence you three quoted was in reference to the Gamepad functionality being a next-gen feature, which is wholly debatable, and has nothing to do with the Metro guy's comment on power.

Speaking of the Gamepad...the only significant benefit for it has been off-TV play. All of these games that have come out so far have added little to nothing in terms of actual gameplay from the Gamepad. Maps, radar, looking down on your screen to create a "tense" situation, none of this revolutionary or next-gen -- it's ancillary and gimmicky. And asymmetric gameplay...err it's useful if you're 12 and still have friends come over to play video games, or if you have a kid yourself.

 

[Version 3.0]

in gaming generations has been defined by power increase

Has it? It's a blurry line. Why weren't the Playstation and Saturn considered a generation ahead of the 3DO and Jaguar? They were considerably more powerful. Why wasn't the N64? To what generation does the TG-16 belong? How about the Neo-geo?

Horsepower has always increased over time, but that's simply how technology works. And it's true of the Wii and Wii U, too, compared to their predecessors, even though the Wii was a laughably tiny increase over the Gamecube.

Generations have been clearly defined by successive consoles released by a single company. Outside of that, it's been anything but clear. The term "next gen" itself doesn't even have a set usage. The only true constant has been time of release.

Sorry, but there is no shorthand to refer to the odd, underpowered-versus-their-contemporaries status of the Wii and Wii U.

 

[Ricky_R]

...nothing? Generations and system war timelines are all bullshit as a few others here have pointed out. There are just different competitors at different times of an ongoing videogame history. You could maaaaybe argue about "16-bit wars" and "32-bit wars", but the fact that you had to make precise qualifications to define them, meant that you're arguing smoke and mirrors and semantics.

So for you there has never been console generations, just gaming since it started until it ends.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

How so?

Resistive low res LCD screen.

So next-gen!!

 

[BlackJace]

So according to Heavy, having actual friends coming over to play with you means you're a 12 year old. Interesting.

 

[kinggroin]

I don't understand, did none of you guys read this:


lol

The original Metro comment was strictly about how fast the CPU was and Hayashi just confirmed it.

The sentence you three quoted was in reference to the Gamepad functionality being a next-gen feature, which is wholly debatable, and has nothing to do with the Metro guy's comment on power.

Speaking of the Gamepad...the only significant benefit for it has been off-TV play. All of these games that have come out so far have added little to nothing in terms of actual gameplay from the Gamepad. Maps, radar, looking down on your screen to create a "tense" situation, none of this revolutionary or next-gen -- it's ancillary and gimmicky. And asymmetric gameplay...err it's useful if you're 12 and still have friends come over to play video games, or if you have a kid yourself.

Its no wonder folks round here love to give you a hard time. Its like you're asking for it.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Speaking of the Gamepad...the only significant benefit for it has been off-TV play. All of these games that have come out so far have added little to nothing in terms of actual gameplay from the Gamepad. Maps, radar, looking down on your screen to create a "tense" situation, none of this revolutionary or next-gen -- it's ancillary and gimmicky. And asymmetric gameplay...err it's useful if you're 12 and still have friends come over to play video games, or if you have a kid yourself.

Hmm... not that I want to come in singing the praises of local mutliplayer to the detriment of focusing on online, but having friends come over to play video games is something that adults can still do without shame. I'm 28, married, and have a kid. And I still have a blast from time to time with local multiplayer.

 

[Bizazedo]

I think it's to early to judge the wii-u power,i say wait for the next round of games.If the ps3 has taught use anything is that judging a system based on launch games is foolish.

It's never too early to judge once retail games have been released. You can't ask someone to spend hard-earned money based on potential.

It's inevitable games will get better as people become accustomed on how to maximize the hardware, that is true, but asking someone not to judge it based on what's available isn't an option either.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Its no wonder folks round here love to give you a hard time. Its like you're asking for it.

/shrug

I'm in my late 20s and don't have people come over to play Nintendoland. I'm a monster. Last time I had friends come over was in high school to play Madden and wrestling games.

It's a great feature if you're younger or have children, especially the latter.

 

[kinggroin]

So for you there has never been console generations, just gaming since it started until it ends.

Essentially, yes sir.

Its a linear progression (not by any one measure) of hardware releases. Some of which end up competing for the same market during their respective time on the market. Some even compete against two successive platforms from another company (a two gen console??)

 

[Steve Youngblood]

/shrug

I'm in my late 20s and don't have people come over to play Nintendoland. I'm a monster.

It's a great feature if you're younger or have children, especially the latter.

I'm also in my late 20s, and have a job, a wife, and a son. To wit, I was able to buy my very own Wii U without having to use my mom's credit card! And I sometimes have friends come over for video games, or board games.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

I'm also in my late 20s, and have a job, a wife, and a son. To wit, I was able to buy my very own Wii U without having to use my mom's credit card!

That's awesome, I'm happy for you.

 

[Ricky_R]

Essentially, yes sir.

Its a linear progression (not by any one measure) of hardware releases. Some of which end up competing for the same market during their respective time on the market. Some even compete against two successive platforms from another company (a two gen console??)

Ok, I respect that and I can even get behind it to be honest. Anyway, there's not much we can get out from this argument, so I'm out.

 

[Barry Burton]

I've said it before, but I think it's interesting enough to say again. I think the argument's happening now for two reasons.

One is that the Wii U didn't explode out of the gates like the Wii (doesn't matter why), so you have the kneejerk defense force who love the system and/or Nintendo kicking in and overly objecting to every slight. What you said is pretty accurate, but if a person phrases allllll of those words with the simple phrase "next gen", even if the defender knows they really mean power, it's an opening for a riposte.

Secondly...and this I find fascinating....is if it is considered next-gen and if it does win as the Wii did (at least initially before it was abandoned), then it's a signal that maybe the progress forward is over with or severely slowed down and the people that want or need more power for the natural evolutions of their preferred genre are threatened. So people are actively rooting against it.

Good points. I think that accounts for a lot of it.

Also, I think a lot of it might stem from how much secrecy surrounded the platform since early 2011, and how coy (and you could argue, confusing) Nintendo has been about what the system actually is. I think after 2 years of contradictory dev/pub quotes (such as in the OP), insider "leaks", anonymous sources, "it's more powerful that 360"/"less powerful than 360"/"same power as 360", etc., people have built up this expectation of what the Wii U is and there still seems to be a reluctance by some to settle on what this console actually is in reality. I still see the power of this system exaggerated in one way or the other (i.e. a lot of people took it as a given that Wii U ports of 360/PS3 games would look the best, but that hasn't exactly happened, has it?) Having Reggie out there spreading BS about Call of Duty running the best on Wii U doesn't help...

I actually agree with that, you're right. I was just trying to make a point about why some people think the Wii or Wii U aren't next gen perse and they weren't necessarily wrong or just trying to dismiss Nintendo for the sake of it is all.

Yep, much of the problem is that the term "next-gen" gets twisted a lot to support one's cause, usually in a way that is not the context in which its being discussed (and then derails the thread). I hope people are aware by now of what ballpark the Wii U is in when it comes to power, and that when someone calls it "next-gen", they aren't really talking about its power. I hope...

 

[kinggroin]

/shrug

I'm in my late 20s and don't have people come over to play Nintendoland. I'm a monster. Last time I had friends come over was in high school to play Madden and wrestling games.

It's a great feature if you're younger or have children, especially the latter.

A monster? The fuck is this self pity shit? No one called you one or implied any kind of social abnormality on your behalf.

I'm 31 and occasionally have friends and family over. We use it sometimes and sometimes we don't. Throwing a blanket statement like you did was obtuse and trollish. You have to be intelligent enough to realize that no? If so, I have to assume you just like the pile-ons.

 

[Orayn]

/shrug

I'm in my late 20s and don't have people come over to play Nintendoland. I'm a monster. Last time I had friends come over was in high school to play Madden and wrestling games.

It's a great feature if you're younger or have children, especially the latter.

That's an anecdotal example, and there's nothing wrong with putting it out there. People aren't criticizing you for your preferences, they're criticizing your conclusion.

"I don't really find asymmetric multiplayer or local multiplayer in general all that appealing."

As opposed to:

"It's a great feature for kids and only kids."

That's dismissive, condescending, and unreasonable.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

That's awesome, I'm happy for you.

I know I was a tad condescending there, and perhaps even a little rude. However, I'm trying to illustrate a point. You're the person who had to use your mom's credit card to try and scalp Wii U's so as to afford Christmas gifts. Perhaps you should reconsider masquerading as though you are some sort of uniquely old and wise individual in a sea of youngsters who have a lot of growing up to do?

 

[Twenty7KVN]

It's never too early to judge once retail games have been released. You can't ask someone to spend hard-earned money based on potential.

It's inevitable games will get better as people become accustomed on how to maximize the hardware, that is true, but asking someone not to judge it based on what's available isn't an option either.

let me rephrase that.Don't form a conclusion based on launch games that's what i mean.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

I know I was a tad condescending there, and perhaps even a little rude. However, I'm trying to illustrate a point. You're the person who had to use your mom's credit card to try and scalp Wii U's so as to afford Christmas gifts. Perhaps you should reconsider masquerading as though you are some sort of uniquely old and wise individual in a sea of youngsters who have a lot of growing up to do?

If this is how you parsed that sentence, I really don't know what to say. I'm sorry you feel that way.

 

[mantidor]

Physics, A.I., world size, visual fidelity resulting in greater story telling or puzzle complexity. These are all the things added with superior computational hardware. It allows the redrawing of the landscape from ground zero.

That is a generational leap. There is nothing about the Wii U that is a true paradigm shift in the games we play, just like the Wii failed to offer said paradigm shift despite an even more radical departure in terms of user interface.

People talk about A.I. and physics when actual advances in those areas have been minimum, and the comment that puzzle complexity is somehow related to power is laughable.

you might not like the Wii, but it was a paradigm shift, otherwise neither Sony nor Microsoft would have bother to copy it.

The Wii u has still to prove itself, but not having "enough" power does not make it a not next gen console, specially because it is still more powerful than anything out there, except pcs of course, which get always ignored in these discussions.

 

[Bizazedo]

let me rephrase that.Don't form a conclusion based on launch games that's what i mean.

Again, that's not possible. You can't form a judgement based on potential or what ifs if you're spending money.

Well, you can, and people do, but it's not wise.

 

[Twenty7KVN]

Again, that's not possible. You can't form a judgement based on potential or what ifs if you're spending money.

Well, you can, and people do, but it's not wise.

I'm not asking people to do that,i'm just saying hold off on the judgment until you have a better understanding of it.

 

[farnham]

So its uncool to have friends come over and play multiplayer games now

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

No it absolutely has not. Power as THE definition of a specific generation doesn't even make sense unless you purposely leave out competitors and adjust time frames. There ARE manufacturer specific generations for different product lines, but that's as far as I'd concede.

Until Wii/360/PS3 I'd say every generation was defined exclusively by power.

 

[HawthorneKitty]

Until Wii/360/PS3 I'd say every generation was defined exclusively by power.

Can we say that the industry has evolved then?

 

[Orayn]

Until Wii/360/PS3 I'd say every generation was defined exclusively by power.

This was generally true among the successful consoles, but only recently have consoles gotten expensive enough to sell at a loss for as long as the 360 and PS3 have. It's a different situation.

Also, what do you make of the 3DO and Jaguar, then? False starts to the PSX generation, like the Dreamcast was to PS2/GC/Xbox? This isn't supposed to be a sarcastic, damning question, I honestly don't know the answer myself. It's also interesting to think about the way storage add-ons for older systems blurred generation lines, especially in cases where they expanded the capabilities of the original hardware.

 

[AzaK]

I think they're probably looking at the 378 copies of Blops 2 Wii-U that they sold in the UK last week and wondering why they bothered.

Who's fault is it though? Sure, Nintendo should be pushing the hell out of their machine which in turn sells more units of hardware which means more units of software. However, there was a 2 week delay on a game that's extremely front-loaded. Activision could have held off for 2 weeks (4 for UK) to keep some of the on the fencers or Nintendo could have just launched a couple of weeks earlier. I think the latter would have made for better relations even if sales would not have been significantly different. Especially since Nintendo have done sweet fuck all to push their new machine anyway what would two weeks matter?

What they should have also done, is worked with Activision closely to get their port looking better. It really wouldn't have cost Nintendo that much I don't think.

 

[Vagabundo]

If this is how you parsed that sentence, I really don't know what to say. I'm sorry you feel that way.

I'm 37, myself and my two brothers (both in their 30s), and several friends (30s and late twenties) all sat around playing local multi on Goldeneye 007 reloaded this Christmas. I guess we're just all weird.

 

[Barry Burton]

The original Metro comment was strictly about how fast the CPU was and Hayashi just confirmed it.

The sentence you three quoted was in reference to the Gamepad functionality being a next-gen feature, which is wholly debatable, and has nothing to do with the Metro guy's comment on power.

Can't both of Hayashi's comments be true? (It's not "horribly slow compared to other platforms" -- i.e, the 360, and yet still "not be next-generation" -- i.e., the 720). At least that's what I gathered from it, none of which comes across to me as news. It was clear to me that Hayashi was referring to the Wii U as "next generation" in the context of its feature set, and then he later clarifies that he wasn't talking about CPU speed when using the designation "next generation".

But he also implies that 4A was still selling the CPU short in comparison to current-gen systems. I don't see why these two quotes necessarily contradict each other. I almost feel like this wouldn't be much of a story if the phrase "next-generation" was never mentioned. Team Ninja taking a pot-shot at 4A is all this story really amounts to.

 

[Baconsammy]

Nintendo's decision to make Nintendoland local only was idiotic. But it's their decision. All they did was ensure that I couldn't play nearly half the games simply because I'm not going out and buying Wiimotes and nunchuks to play the games on the Wii U. If they assumed we all kept our Wiis and controllers, they assumed poorly. What really bothered me was the lack of leaderboards. So damned lazy.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

This was generally true among the successful consoles, but only recently have consoles gotten expensive enough to sell at a loss for as long as the 360 and PS3 have. It's a different situation.

That's what I meant by historically.

 

[pvpness]

If this is how you parsed that sentence, I really don't know what to say. I'm sorry you feel that way.

Ah man, don't back out of it cause people called you on it. You in plain English said that only popular 12 year Olds could enjoy asymmetric gameplay. Stand by that bs at least.

 

[HawthorneKitty]

Nintendo's decision to make Nintendoland local only was idiotic. But it's their decision. All they did was ensure that I couldn't play nearly half the games simply because I'm not going out and buying Wiimotes and nunchuks to play the games on the Wii U. If they assumed we all kept our Wiis and controllers, they assumed poorly.

The way I see it is that Nintendo is not amassing any revenue selling controllers so it's a ploy to sell Wiimotes; I can't fault them for it since it makes sense though.

 

[TreasureHunterG]

I trust them more than I do Team Ninja, who has a vested interested in the system and will say as long as it is praising Nintendo.

Sure, bashing Nintendo is good, but defend it is not? Ok.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Who's fault is it though? Sure, Nintendo should be pushing the hell out of their machine which in turn sells more units of hardware which means more units of software. However, there was a 2 week delay on a game that's extremely front-loaded. Activision could have held off for 2 weeks (4 for UK) to keep some of the on the fencers or Nintendo could have just launched a couple of weeks earlier. I think the latter would have made for better relations even if sales would not have been significantly different. Especially since Nintendo have done sweet fuck all to push their new machine anyway what would two weeks matter?

What they should have also done, is worked with Activision closely to get their port looking better. It really wouldn't have cost Nintendo that much I don't think.

Are you seriously suggesting Activision shares in the fault for poor COD sales because they didn't delay their launch across 3 other platforms to coincide with the Wii U launch? Why on earth would Activision do that? I don't see how it's even a conceivable option. Ubisoft and Assassin's Creed 3 as well? Maybe everyone should just delay their internal schedules.

If Nintendo can't launch their system in time for games launching across multiple platforms, then that's most certainly their problem. :/

 

[JordanN]

Wii U is next gen no matter how people in denial put it.

More RAM and a superior GPU guarantees the Wii U will have better visuals than PS3/360 at the end of the day. So what's the complaint?

Because the leap isn't huge? Who gives a damn? There's no objective way of measuring something huge. Accept it for what it is and move on.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Because the leap isn't huge? Who gives a damn? There's no objective way of measuring something huge. Accept it for what it is and move on.

Aside from, you know, specs.

 

[Juken]

Wii U is next gen no matter how people in denial put it.

More RAM and a superior GPU guarantees the Wii U will have better visuals than PS3/360 at the end of the day. So what's the complaint?

Because the leap isn't huge? Who gives a damn? There's no objective way of measuring something huge. Accept it for what it is and move on.

You are right that that whether the leap in tech is enough is subjective from person to person, but plenty of people give a damn.

 

[JordanN]

Aside from, you know, specs.

What about them?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Wii U is next gen no matter how people in denial put it.

More RAM and a superior GPU guarantees the Wii U will have better visuals than PS3/360 at the end of the day. So what's the complaint?

Because the leap isn't huge? Who gives a damn? There's no objective way of measuring something huge. Accept it for what it is and move on.

Can't you look at two screen shots and tell us what the difference in polygon counts is? That's certainly a measurement.

 

[JordanN]

Edit:

Okay...why does it have to be one or the other?

Yes: The Wii U is next gen.
No: The Wii U is not a huge leap forward specs-wise.

That is why I originally said that, historically, a new generation was based on a huge leap forward in performance. Starting with the Wii, that line became blurred.

So are you agreeing with me or what?

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

What about them?

Okay...why does it have to be one or the other?

Yes: The Wii U is next gen.
No: The Wii U is not a huge leap forward specs-wise.

That is why I originally said that, historically, a new generation was based on a huge leap forward in performance. Starting with the Wii, that line became blurred.

 

[pvpness]

Can't you look at two screen shots and tell us what the difference in polygon counts is? That's certainly a measurement.

Lol you magnificent bastard. I'm jealous of your memory.

 

[lherre]

Can't you look at two screen shots and tell us what the difference in polygon counts is? That's certainly a measurement.

lol, polycount secret skill !!!

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

/shrug

I'm in my late 20s and don't have people come over to play Nintendoland. I'm a monster. Last time I had friends come over was in high school to play Madden and wrestling games.

It's a great feature if you're younger or have children, especially the latter.

Or have friends

EDIT:

Can't you look at two screen shots and tell us what the difference in polygon counts is? That's certainly a measurement.

At launch, Doom 3 had a superior polycount to Half Life 2.

Personally, I think Half Life 2 is a better looking game.

 

[kinggroin]

Aside from, you know, specs.

Specs include the tablet controller. Something that brings an added value not found on competing devices, whether you accept it or not.

You can stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalala", but narrowing a generation to only internal hardware performance is a very narrow view of the market anyway, and one reason we are all arguing in circles. Its nebulous, and better if we drop the "generations" categorization altogether IMO.

Edit: saw your post above. Ignore everything I said in this post. I still disagree about the historical part of your argument however.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

I'm 37, myself and my two brothers (both in their 30s), and several friends (30s and late twenties) all sat around playing local multi on Goldeneye 007 reloaded this Christmas. I guess we're just all weird.

This is kind of a different situation. Having family over for the holidays and playing is different than doing it regularly.

Can't both of Hayashi's comments be true? (It's not "horribly slow compared to other platforms" -- i.e, the 360, and yet still "not be next-generation" -- i.e., the 720). At least that's what I gathered from it, none of which comes across to me as news. It was clear to me that Hayashi was referring to the Wii U as "next generation" in the context of its feature set, and then he later clarifies that he wasn't talking about CPU speed when using the designation "next generation".

Horribly slow for a next-gen CPU, yeah. That's what been confirmed.

Ah man, don't back out of it cause people called you on it. You in plain English said that only popular 12 year Olds could enjoy asymmetric gameplay. Stand by that bs at least.

I said I didn't think it would be useful unless you were 12 or had kids, yeah. For me it wouldn't, maybe it would for you. It was insulting but that wasn't my intention, didn't really think it through. It was the last line of a multi-paragraph post, not the core subject.

 

[99%]

I think it's to early to judge the wii-u power,i say wait for the next round of games.If the ps3 has taught use anything is that judging a system based on launch games is foolish.

Heavenly Sword and Motorstorm were waaaaay beyond any last gen games.

 

[99%]

So according to Heavy, having actual friends coming over to play with you means you're a 12 year old. Interesting.

Well its very fun but if youre 30+ (so the average age of a gamer) and have a job and wife and kids and your friends do to this wont happen more then a few times a year tops.

Online multi is where you can play with your real friends too, in those few hours a week you get to play.

 

[nasos_333]

Specs include the tablet controller. Something that brings an added value not found on competing devices, whether you accept it or not.

You can stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalala", but narrowing a generation to only internal hardware performance is a very narrow view of the market anyway, and one reason we are all arguing in circles. Its nebulous, and better if we drop the "generations" categorization altogether IMO.

Edit: saw your post above. Ignore everything I said in this post. I still disagree about the historical part of your argument however.

MS has smartglass and xbox 720 will probably have true next gen hardware

So, i dont see that huge edge the new awkward controller of WiiU provides

From my point of view is a big minus, since i would hate to have to take my eyes of the action and look at another screen and being optional (or not at all) would be best

Nintendo needed a new gimmick to sell WiiU, that does not mean it is actually a good thing or redeems them for the hardware that still has not shown better graphics than xbox 360

most graphics heavy multipltforms so far look best on 360, which is terrible for a "next gen" console