Support NeoGAF

[Conciliator]

I don't mind only using some party members. Managing 9 dudes would be a mess, roflz roflz. There are basically two things I don't like about JRPGs:

1. My time is valuable and they don't respect it.
2. 100 things I could say about the character design and story-telling, that we'll just say is one: I mostly don't like it.

I actually don't mind androgynous or even effeminate male characters, though. I mean, you can take it to a place that's fetishistic, and some do and that's tacky and miserable, but I don't need my dudes to always be gruff, dour anti-heroes.

Things I do like:

1. Willingness to experiment with complex mechanics and otherwise just not afraid of being complicated and open.
2. A fondness for and focus on surrealism that I like and that Western design isn't comfortable with(because they're too busy rewriting Lord of the Rings over and over.)

 

[mollipen]

Silent Protags are the best protags.

Silent protagonists are lazy game creation in my opinion.

I think #8 hit me the most in... Mana Khemia, was it? One of those RPGs on the PS2. It was the main male character, and two utterly obnoxious female characters, and the guy was just getting completely walked all over by them. The game gave me an option of how to respond to them, and—in what I consider easily one of the worst offended of the JRPG genre—I could only pick the one that the game wanted me to. (Which was, of course, the one that had him not standing up for himself.) That was the point I shut the game off and never went back to it.

Actually, that kind of signals to me one of the big differences between Western RPGs and Japanese RPGs: WRPGs are about empowering the player and making them feel cool, JRPGs are about making the player play out a specific story the creators have written, even if that entails making the player be something they don't want to be.

I could be totally wrong in that though, as I've not played enough WRPGs to state that as a fact. That's just kind of the stereotype I have after all of this time, which no doubt stems from that "your character" versus "our character you're controlling" difference in mentalities.

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

"Stop right there, criminal scum!"

(In Witcher 2 you can even take the money out of the tip jar and no one cares, lol)

Before you edited, I was going to say " No one said something like this to me in witcher2"

 

[dramatis]

Seems like some of the Hachimaki comments might have stuff more people will agree with.

First comment on the post said "Random Encounters" which I agree with more than all of the above.

 

[Zekes!]

I always enjoy hearing about Japanese gamers' opinions; it's always funny 'cause they're usually not too different than ours.

I remember when Final Fantasy: 4 Heroes of Light was first announced, someone translated a 2ch thread where they were bitching about the game

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Now this is a good list! Guess it takes people knowing what the fuck they're talking about to critique it, go figure.

I don't know about 1, though, at least in the application process. Nier is a good example of this. I do know that it should happen, if only to counteract the growing Nouveau Anime Look that is becoming pervasive the last few years.

Number 7:

Final Fantasy XII Zodiac Spear.

Someone needs to be shot for that.

YOU CAN GET IT ANYWAYS LATER.

I agree with 'four' whole heartedly. In games like Tales of Vesperia particularly, where you have a party of 8 yet only four can fight at a time, it's annoying and some time very immersion breaking.

Mass Effect particularly fucked me off with this. On Virmire where you have to send a team mate with the Salarian Op's squad to attack that base, they always get overwhelmed. Yet some of your team-mates are just sitting around in the ship doing fuck all, it's like, what?

I would relish a standard turn based battle system with 8+ characters but others would stroke out at the scope of battle.

Guys this villian is impossible, but we have the best weapon of all, EACH OTHER.

Oh no, I would have had the entire universe in the palm of my hands if it wasn't for you 14-17 year old kids who know the meaning of working together and FRIENDSHIP.

This is one that wasn't on the list that gets me. Friendships or summoning lunar light via a 25-pound 5 foot sword rammed up his barnhole dozens of time during the fight? You make the call! lol

So...who exactly are JRPG makers making games for? These are common complaints from us (westerners, many of who have stopped playing JRPGs). Clearly there is a problem here from the developers.

Because you people don't buy the JRPGs that don't do these things anyway, and are only justifying your disinterest in hindsight?

 

[BishopLamont]

These are all dumb points, I mean seriously, they're called JRPGS? Seriously?

 

[kevm3]

1. I completely agree with. I'm tired of all the ladyboys in trenchcoat themes that has taken over Jrpgs for the past 10 years or so. All the guys look like women and the women look like models. The characters look like they were designed by a marketing research firm to hit a target market than allowing for actual creativity. One of the reasons I love a game like Chrono Trigger or even Breath of Fire 3 was because the diverse and interesting look to the characters.

Call me a hater, but who in the world thought this was a cool character design?

Give me more of this:

 

[FLEABttn]

The preorder thing I imagine because it would make going into stores annoying and also standing in the line itself would be awful.

Plus it likely has a bad stereotypical image over there, like hipsters lining up for iProducts or something.

Has this Japanese board never heard of Amazon.co.jp? They sell video games and ship them, directly to your house/apartment/rented bunk cube at that.

 

[kevm3]

7 is another huge point. I think it was FF12 that had treasure chests sitting in the middle of the field and if you opened them or didn't open them in the right order, you would miss out on one of the best weapons of the game... and there's NO indication on how to open those treasure chests. That is wack.

 

[mantidor]

The permission thing is so weird, but I guess is a cultural thing? I do now understand why you are always reprimanded when trying to open a cupboard that isn't yours in Skyward Sword.

 

[Levyne]

A lot of these things aren't limited to JRPGs, or JRPGs and WRPGs, or RPGs in general even. Some of these seem like complaints of games in general.

 

[Dylan]

We could come up with 10 better things to hate about jRPGs. Go!

10. Numbers appear on screen too quickly to actually know what they are.

9. Crying animation needs to evolve beyond a bobbing head in folded arms

8. All plots end with "kids save the entire galaxy".

7. Bosses that are weak against [magic type] no longer a novel concept.

6. Need less emphasis on pedophelic innuendos.

5. Large robotic mammals as party members should at least have their presence explained.

4. What necessitates a weird dance before casting magic?

3. Large inconsistencies between the circumstances in which the main character has the ability to fly.

2. There is always an item that boosts DEF when HP is low and it always sucks.

1. No co-op.

 

[Kazzy]

Hidden things you wouldn't understand unless you read a walkthrough

This honestly bothers me more than I care to admit, you shouldn't have the chance to 'complete' a game taken away from you.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Hell no if I'm clicking that TV Tropes link, I don't want to be stuck in front of the computer for hours :lol That said, I don't really see opening chests without penalties as something negative.

It's lazy, old-fashioned design to give you a reward for just walking into a random building that would otherwise be completely unconnected to your current objectives. Some RPGs play with the trope, like in FF7 when you could steal some kid's life savings from his mattress and get guilt tripped for it, or stealing Tifa's underwear from her room during a flashback. But such examples are few and far between, and every visit to a town becomes a tedious chore of 'is there a treasure chest in this house? How about this house? How about that house?'

 

[Thommunist]

"47名前： 名無しさん必死だな 投稿日：2012/05/12(&#22303 20:01:53.20 ID:nMRSF2ONO
攻略本を見ないと分からないような隠し要素。

～時間以内にラストダンジョン到達とか、
最初の街で宝箱を開けると、何の脈絡も無い別マップの最強武器が消えるとか。"

Yep, number 47 is pissed off about the FFXII bullshit as well, haha.

 

[Levyne]

Also

Trek back through the dungeon again and re-visit the boss room where before was only a cutscene and a fight: magically a chest has appeared

 

[ronito]

Really? No "Nonsensical stories"? No "Grinding"? No "Excessive padding"? No "teenagers go save the world again?"

This top 10 list is highly suspect.

 

[NeonZ]

So...who exactly are JRPG makers making games for? These are common complaints from us (westerners, many of who have stopped playing JRPGs). Clearly there is a problem here from the developers.

Based on interviews, at least from Square, they go after a teenager audience. I guess the people participating in that discussion are at least 20+ years old.

 

[spirity]

"47名前： 名無しさん必死だな 投稿日：2012/05/12(&#22303 20:01:53.20 ID:nMRSF2ONO
攻略本を見ないと分からないような隠し要素。

～時間以内にラストダンジョン到達とか、
最初の街で宝箱を開けると、何の脈絡も無い別マップの最強武器が消えるとか。"

Well that's easy for you to say.

 

[RSLAEV]

1. The characters are all good-looking guys and beautiful girls..

I always thought they were doing that because Japanese players preferred meticulously coiffed flawless porcelain dolls for protagonists but it turns out, *nobody* likes that shit!

 

[LiK]

Based on interviews, at least from Square, they go after a teenager audience. I guess the people participating in that discussion are at least 20+ years old.

yea, think back to when you played JRPGs has a kid. teens weren't that weird. as people get older and the protagnonists stay young, they start questioning it.

 

[snap0212]

"47名前： 名無しさん必死だな 投稿日：2012/05/12(&#22303 20:01:53.20 ID:nMRSF2ONO
攻略本を見ないと分からないような隠し要素。

～時間以内にラストダンジョン到達とか、
最初の街で宝箱を開けると、何の脈絡も無い別マップの最強武器が消えるとか。"

Yep, number 47 is pissed off about the FFXII bullshit as well, haha.

Mega lustig, einen Paragraph in einer Sprache zu zitieren, die hier nur eine Minderheit versteht. Richtig?

 

[Shiloa]

Because you people don't buy the JRPGs that don't do these things anyway, and are only justifying your disinterest in hindsight?

Well, I used to. JRPGs were my absolute favourite genre. But things move on and as a genre it seems to have stagnated. I'm not the only one as sales and range of the genre shows. The target audience is dwindling. I thought it was just here, but if OP's evidence is true for a wider opinion, then it's the same in Jland.

 

[Dylan]

I always thought they were doing that because Japanese players preferred meticulously coiffed flawless porcelain dolls for protagonists but it turns out, *nobody* likes that shit!

I can only imagine what would happen if you took an RPG and filled it with ugly people OH WAIT Fallout 3.

 

[dramatis]

We could come up with 10 better things to hate about jRPGs. Go!

"Better things to hate", are there such things? Really now.

This top 10 list is highly suspect.

That's probably because it's not a top 10 list.

 

[lifa-cobex]

1. I completely agree with. I'm tired of all the ladyboys in trenchcoat themes that has taken over Jrpgs for the past 10 years or so. All the guys look like women and the women look like models. The characters look like they were designed by a marketing research firm to hit a target market than allowing for actual creativity. One of the reasons I love a game like Chrono Trigger or even Breath of Fire 3 was because the diverse and interesting look to the characters.

Call me a hater, but who in the world thought this was a cool character design?

I completely agree. I think the days of Chrono trigger an older gen Final fantasy games have totally died out now.
Take cloud from ff7. His hair is a total mess and he wears a basic military uniform with slight steam punk look. It suited the area he was living in. Now his hair is "styled" like that and he's covered in belts and zips.
Even in battle system/ story terms. Everything has seem to loose its edge. Instead it just seems to be played safe in so called creativity. Its nice we can always go back to them but i would love something fresh

 

[Khrno]

Really? No "Nonsensical stories"? No "Grinding"? No "Excessive padding"? No "teenagers go save the world again?"

This top 10 list is highly suspect.

I hate how in WRPG there's no room for grinding, the enemies in the game are the right amount you need to level up and get through it

 

[Bladenic]

Honestly only about 3 points on that list are legit, the rest is complete and utter bulshit. Hardly thread worthy.

 

[RSLAEV]

I can only imagine what would happen if you took an RPG and filled it with ugly people OH WAIT Fallout 3.

Not wanting supermodels as main characters doesn't mean I want a game full of dirty diseased mole people.

 

[ArjanN]

Hell no if I'm clicking that TV Tropes link, I don't want to be stuck in front of the computer for hours :lol That said, I don't really see opening chests without penalties as something negative.

I think it's more the disconnect between the heroes usually being goody two-shoes in jRPGs and you as the player breaking and entering and stealing everything that isn't nailed down.

 

[Zekes!]

I completely agree. I think the days of Chrono trigger an older gen Final fantasy games have totally died out now.

We still get Dragon Quest bro

 

[evilromero]

Can't believe they didn't pick the most obvious things. JRPGS tend to be tedious, bland, boring, generic characters & character art, silly amateurish dialog and cliched plots.

 

[Kazzy]

Honestly only about 3 points on that list are legit, the rest is complete and utter bulshit. Hardly thread worthy.

You could throw those same criticisms at most lists that appear on GAF.

If it promotes discussion, it's a moot point.

 

[ArjanN]

Really? No "Nonsensical stories"? No "Grinding"? No "Excessive padding"? No "teenagers go save the world again?"

This top 10 list is highly suspect.

Those would be more western complains IMO.

 

[Sapphire Dreams]

1. The characters are all good-looking guys and beautiful girls.

That can be said about 90% of video games not exclusively for JRPGs. But thankfully we have games like Skyrim where everyone is ugly as hell

2. Movie --> Dialogue --> Movie

Yeah, I agree.

3. Opening chests without permission.

Not really seeing the problem here.

4. You have a bunch of characters, but only a few of them can participate in the battle.

You may argue this is for tactical reasons if every characters has his own unique abilities.

5. The actual game contents are subordinated to the theme song, voice actress, etc.

Wait huh ? what the hell does that even mean ?

6. About 1,200 people line up for preorders.

Huh ? how is that a bad thing?

7. Hidden things you wouldn't understand unless you read a walkthrough.

Maybe sometimes you're not looking hard enough.

8. The protagonist always does the opposite of what I think.

Not all JRPGs are like that but some do this and it does get annoying.

9. You're just running errands, and then before you know it you have somehow saved the world.

Neir in a nutshell.

10. They're called JRPGs.

Really ?

 

[survivor]

1. I completely agree with. I'm tired of all the ladyboys in trenchcoat themes that has taken over Jrpgs for the past 10 years or so. All the guys look like women and the women look like models. The characters look like they were designed by a marketing research firm to hit a target market than allowing for actual creativity. One of the reasons I love a game like Chrono Trigger or even Breath of Fire 3 was because the diverse and interesting look to the characters.

I don't see how the guy on top is supposed to be worse than the 3 examples you posted. They all range from shit to average at best.

 

[SMT]

Discrimination against the pretty JAF? lol Sounds like something 2Chan would corroborate.
There are some normal and ugly looking characters in JRPGs, what a bunch of crock.

Why do I need permission to pillage or loot? That's no fun.

I have one problem with JRPGS, and that lies with the indecisive male protagonists who always seem to have their heads up their asses, and need someone to hold their hands for them to see the 'way', usually a female counterpart, which leads to a completion complex bearing a lack of independence. Instead of someone else completing you, they should compliment you! Isn't that what JRPGs are all about?

It's all a parody of nerdy gamers who have low self-esteem, and only realize they have redeemable traits if a GIRL tells them so.
I have yet to see a non-moody, non-egotistical, non-insecure, non-hedonistic male protagonist in all my days of playing JRPGs.

What message does this convey to the kids? You have to abide by anti-social behaviour in order to gain friends, and be cool?

Quite the opposite, maybe in the Netherworld, yeah.

 

[Midou]

2. There is always an item that boosts DEF when HP is low and is always sucks.

It's pretty good in Dark Souls, but not good enough to use it instead of other ring abilities.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

yea, think back to when you played JRPGs has a kid. teens weren't that weird. as people get older and the protagnonists stay young, they start questioning it.

Teenage protagonists aren't the problem:

Cloying, irritating, wangsty teenage protagonists are:

 

[EternalGamer]

Call me a hater, but who in the world thought this was a cool character design?

[/IMG]

I like Squares newer character designs, this one included. They are. Ovine away from generic anime look (which to me is just as boring as western bald headed army dudes look). The art design is unique. Is it crazy and weird as fuck? Absolutely it is. That is part of what makes it cool. I have many many problems with Square nowadays (ugh., the narrative and dialog hurts to witness) but character design definitely isn't one of them.

 

[Thommunist]

Haha, alter. Mega lustig, einen Paragraph in einer Sprache zu zitieren, die hier nur eine Minderheit versteht.

Ja, ich verstehe schon, du hast recht. But in all seriousness, I'll translate/summarize it next time instead of citing it, you make a valid point.

As many others have stated, I think the audience that responded to this blog is an older audience, probably in their 20's or late 10's. I don't recall myself questioning these quirks in RPG's when I was young, apart from the obviously weird stuff like the rampant kleptomania enforced in most RPG's.

 

[Data West]

Those would be more western complains IMO.

What WRPGs are you grinding in?

 

[jump_button]

I call them RPG hate it when the J was added and I do hate all new ff when they all look the same give us a new ff9 full of odd balls

more like this

 

[JakkuFurosu]

the whole list seems pretty universal except the preorder lines.

what id like to see is a Japan top 10 of games they want localized for them

 

[Slamtastic]

what id like to see is a Japan top 10 of games they want localized for them

http://kotaku.com/5911046/the-top-ten-xbox-360-games-in-japan-that-were-never-released-there

 

[Dylan]

"Better things to hate", are there such things? Really now.

"Better things to hate" could easily be an alternate name of this very message board. ; P

 

[Forceatowulf]

1. The characters are all good-looking guys and beautiful girls.

2. Movie --> Dialogue --> Movie

3. Opening chests without permission

4. You have a bunch of characters, but only a few of them can participate in the battle.

5. The actual game contents are subordinated to the theme song, voice actress, etc.

6. About 1,200 people line up for preorders.

7. Hidden things you wouldn't understand unless you read a walkthrough

8. The protagonist always does the opposite of what I think.

9. You're just running errands, and then before you know it you have somehow saved the world.

10. They're called JRPGs.

The bolded are big issues for me as well. The non-bolded to a lesser degree. The non-bolded can be annoying, but they're not game breaking for me.

I would like to add the following:

• 2D cardboard cut outs used during dialogue. Please get that lazy, cheap ass shit out of here. Especially when you have a game already using 3D models. Seriously, what the fuck man...
  
• The lack of games using an open world like DQ8. Come the fuck on Japan. How is this shit not standard at this point?!
  
• The lack of mature, distinguished looking characters. Is it fucking illegal to look like you're pushing 30/40 in JRPG's or something? I'm 25 now and I was noticing this same issue when I was 15. ugh
  
• Boys looking like girls and characters who don't look their age.
  
• Way too many fucking characters. No party needs more than 6 members max. And 4 is the magic number in my opinion. When there are more than 4 characters I start to not give a shit about the less prominent ones. Even forgetting their names. I mean, there's a real problem when you've invested over 20+ hours in a game and you're still forgetting certain members names. For the love of god no more than 6. Please.

I am just so sick of this shit. And have been for quite a while.

 

[Pirabear]

Teenage protagonists aren't the problem:

The skull and crossbones on Kanji's shirt is actually Teddie?

 

[Data West]

http://kotaku.com/5911046/the-top-ten-xbox-360-games-in-japan-that-were-never-released-there

Wow, Dead Space and Prototype didn't go to Japan? Those seem like they'd be big over there. Especially Dead Space.