It never gets old.
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Tetsuya Nomura Is No Longer Directing Final Fantasy XV
- Thread starter Volotaire
- Start date
It never gets old.
LegendofLex
Member
From what I understand, the segment they included in the demo was pretty representative of the final game, so... sure?
Man...I just don't even know what to say to this, considering some of the actually awesome designs we've gotten in previous games...
The trailer, ignoring the dinosaur ass kicking, basically reminded me of this scene from Zoolander
What? Because it has four friends on a car? Really?
You don't have to say anything. It's my opinion. You're welcome to yours, so long as you can accept that others might not feel as you do.
I'm loving the way the game looks. I love the characters. The dialogue and atmosphere remind me of long road trips with my friends to out of state tourneys, just shooting the shit. Except with more magic, teleporting, astral shards, and dinosaurs.
I can't really decide what's worse, the development clusterfuck that is S-E, or the terrible memes that every S-E thread spawns. It's probably a toss up. But since I cannot do anything about the terrible management of S-E, but I can do something about the terrible memes on this forum, I'm going to have to go with fixing that instead.
Plz stop.
Plz stop.
From what I remember, that demo was pretty much the entire game at that point.
Whatever. Nomura may have sucked in managing this game (we really don't know after 8 years) but this is clearly his vision.
Literally everything he said 8 years ago is what you're seeing in the game. It seems to work so well, too. This is a Tetsuya Nomura game through and through and nothing will change that. It's his magnum opus and whatever critical acclaim this hopefully gets, I think he out of all people deserve it. A lot of people here act like he committed some sort of homicide and I'm just upset he's gonna get unwarranted hate. He was the reason why we gave a damn back then and why we give a damn now.
Literally everything he said 8 years ago is what you're seeing in the game. It seems to work so well, too. This is a Tetsuya Nomura game through and through and nothing will change that. It's his magnum opus and whatever critical acclaim this hopefully gets, I think he out of all people deserve it. A lot of people here act like he committed some sort of homicide and I'm just upset he's gonna get unwarranted hate. He was the reason why we gave a damn back then and why we give a damn now.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
When did I state my opinion as a fact? I never said you were WRONG, I just made it clear I disagreed. Also "keep trying"? This is my first post in this thread
DangerMouse
Member
Actually, if there's one project from this period I think we can blame SE as a whole on in my opinion, it's this one. Including some blame for Nomura for ofcourse.
While normally it might be fair to put all the blame on the director for making sure the game comes out on time, his project was clearly screwed over by management more than any other and for years at a time since no doubt it wasn't just mere months his team was taken off to get XIII out the door and to rebuild XIV, double-time, in like two years.
From announcing it too early, probably before anyone even barely touched a computer, to taking his team off the project, not just once but multiple times to fix other peoples' massive screw ups, to having Nomura work on like 15 projects between 2006 and now, while he was simultaneously off and on working on a title of FFXII or higher level complexity, and then the apparently awful and incomplete engine they were working with, on top of any directors mistakes, etc.
Imagine Matsuno, who had enough with just FFXII on his plate, and he was no slouch project director either, if he had to do even just FFXII with S-E's embarrassing transition to HD development if it hadn't been a PS2 game.
Agreed, I love his (and old Squaresoft) games.
Agreed.
Riposte
Member
No mura excuses.
I'm sorry, all of the, OMG HOW CAN YOU GUYS LIKE THIS posts just blend in after awhile. Consider my post a general one, not directed specifically at you.
Night Hunter
Banned
This is some kind of GAF in joke, right? RIGHT?
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
It doesn't make sense to say "Nomura's part was done." He was the director, his part is not done until the game is finished.
I suppose it is possible that Nomura was basically tired of working on the game and he and SE management felt moving to KH3 would be better for all involved. But somehow that seems unlikely to me, given that this project has been his baby for the better part of a decade. In most cases directors are not going to simply step aside willy-nilly and let someone else take over.
My guess is that his original vision for the game was too ambitious, and he wasn't able to come to a compromise with management to get the game finished. So they decided to yank him from the project and let him work on KH3 and brought Tabata in to finish out XV. They probably didn't want to cut Nomura immediately so Tabata could work with him and get a good understanding of his vision in order to remain as close as possible while still being the "company man" and compromising where necessary to get the game out the door.
Just a guess, could be totally wrong.
I suppose it is possible that Nomura was basically tired of working on the game and he and SE management felt moving to KH3 would be better for all involved. But somehow that seems unlikely to me, given that this project has been his baby for the better part of a decade. In most cases directors are not going to simply step aside willy-nilly and let someone else take over.
My guess is that his original vision for the game was too ambitious, and he wasn't able to come to a compromise with management to get the game finished. So they decided to yank him from the project and let him work on KH3 and brought Tabata in to finish out XV. They probably didn't want to cut Nomura immediately so Tabata could work with him and get a good understanding of his vision in order to remain as close as possible while still being the "company man" and compromising where necessary to get the game out the door.
Just a guess, could be totally wrong.
vicissitudes
Banned
Sorry.
Not like there's anything else left to talk about.
¯\_(ツ_/¯
So don't post then? These bad memes just keep getting quoted and derail most threads.
The game might not be finished, but Square Enix's infinite patience for his beautiful vision sure is!
Those were my thoughts, and I'm sure it is a handed part of it. Others have infered that Square encouraged him out of the position to get some traction on XV and move him onto KH3. Probably a mixture of both, the speculation on politics seems weird.
LegendofLex
Member
oh you
Let's revise that sentiment: most of the things Nomura is famous for (which are: story, character design, battle design) would already have been more or less complete at this stage in the game's development.
Even the press release says this was his main contribution to FFXV anyway.
Him not being the direct project director any more also doesn't mean he's not still a producer.
HeartlessNobody213
Member
Exactly.
TunaUppercut
Neo Member
I actually did not see this happening. A few years into Final Fantasy 15's development, yes I can see this outcome. But after 8 years they decide to remove Nomura? What is going on at Square Enix?
TheGreatLugia
Banned
Now we know why he had time to do that Batman design. =p
LegendofLex
Member
They need to get their PS4 projects out the door (because development hell costs money), and that means handing over the project that's already been in the works for at least 8 years to someone else so the visionary can focus on the one that wasn't started until recently?
Where are the memes that are derailing the thread? I thought they were all appropriate and humorous for this "dire" situation. SE/Nomura deserve this for bad project management.
I just read from page 1-6, then skipped to 14-19 and I am not seeing anything interesting or derailing except for the Famassu part of man-crushing on Nomura.
People don't really know what a meme means anymore. There are no memes here, just attempts to get a rise out of people.
TunaUppercut
Neo Member
Exactly. That's why I'm wondering why SE waited eight years to move Nomura over to focus on Kingdom Hearts III.
Someone goes ham and tries to take down a gaming company with a single post and then three weeks later an affluent gaf member that is generally well liked reposts that post in an attempt to gain additional favor. Then a lower level gaf member like myself that is unaware of its reputation gets windswept. Thus a "meme" is born.
killatopak
Member
So I stopped reading around a few pages in and skipped here. Are there any new information?
LegendofLex
Member
*shrug* The decision to rebrand FFXV and move it to next-gen seems to have been pretty recent. And now that they're at the point of releasing a demo, they seem to be much more confident in how the project's coming along.
Meanwhile, KH games re-use a lot of Disney content, so it's not like they rely on Nomura for the bulk of the creative direction.
DangerMouse
Member
Yeah. Something like this feels like that kind of complicated "somewhere in between" PR and reality.
All we can do now is hope that his part was "done enough" that like the tone, gameplay, and story beats in this trailer thankfully shows, that in the end it still retains most of what Nomura was trying to achieve and tells the whole story and character development completely even with Tabata finishing it.
As wmlk said, the good thing is that this trailer, with pretty much entirely new content, was pretty much exactly how the game, and it's gameplay, had been described all those years ago.
Square posted a blog post on it, nothing really new, PR stuff : http://eu.square-enix.com/en/blog/ff-type-0-hd-coming-march-special-surprise
If Nomura or SE was content with what role he had on the project he would have stayed as a co-director and not get removed from it entirely. His "creative" work was done so he could move to another project is a load of crap and makes Nomura look like a pushover.
This is just further proof that this company has absolutely ZERO understanding of its own development and what is going on with their own teams. While I'm glad to see that Tabata is on the case, I'm beginning to seriously wonder if ANY work has actually be done on the title since it's re-reveal.
Final Fantasy Versus XIII/XV is just becoming more and more of a joke in my eyes.
Final Fantasy Versus XIII/XV is just becoming more and more of a joke in my eyes.
killatopak
Member
Let's hope it's not just PR then.
I think that a lot of people look at a long development period and assume that it is reasonable to say that. But that's not always true, especially if a large and ambitious project is developed over a long period of time with the idea and even core concepts evolving over time.
Let's consider these three particular points - story, character design, battle design.
The story in a RPG also dictates the overall scope and scale of the game. Is it likely that a story outline was completed many years ago, and a screenplay for most if not all of the cutscenes finished? Sure. But isn't it equally likely that if the scope of the game is redefined at various stages of development, that the story outline and even entire scripted scenes would have to change? In a stable and well managed production, there would be a content freeze once the team has determined exactly what they wanted the game to be after pre-production. Clearly this hasn't happened here since every 2 years or so we hear Nomura talking about huge changes, and eventually the game even changed platforms and title. So I wouldn't be so sure that the story is completely done either.
An example I will put forth is FFXII. Matsuno stepped down as director and left early in 2005. The game was in development for about four years at that point. Matsuno also well known as a director who focuses on both story and gameplay. Yet based on all the interviews after the game was released, it is very clear that they added writing staff to the game after he left and had to restructure some stuff and write new scenes. Why? Wouldn't the entire story be complete at that point? Shouldn't Matsuno have completed the story? Did they not like some of what he wrote? Was it simply incompatible because they had reduced the scope of the story and needed to make things more cohesive? We might never know the truth of the matter, but I'm sure a lot of these questions apply to FFXV as well.
Next we turn to the character design. Yes, this is usually one of the first things that should be completed in terms of pre-production for the visuals. But again, this production hasn't really been "normal" so to speak. We've seen character designs even for the main characters change a little here and there over the course of development. What's even more interesting to me is that usually Nomura shares singular credit for character design on games he works extensively on, but when the game was reannounced as FFXV last year, the design credits attached to the copyrights of the game are different. They now read "CHARACTER DESIGN: TETSUYA NOMURA & Roberto Ferrari". So there has clearly been a substantial change which the company felt deserved an amendment to design credit. Again, this is evidence that even now there could be ongoing design changes for one reason or another, so I wouldn't say that it is certain that whatever we see really represents some sort of absolute perfect vision Nomura had for the character designs from the start.
Then we get to battle design, which is actually the trickiest part of all. For the games Nomura directs, he usually has significant input in the gameplay design, yes. For many of the Kingdom Hearts games he comes up with the concept for a lot of the battle gimmicks and sub-systems. But he also leaves it to the actual battle directors and planners to flesh out his ideas into actual playable systems. In the case of XV here, we've seen signs that they've been experimenting a lot with the battle interface and mechanics over the years. For an action RPG, the most important thing for the gameplay is that it has to be fun. Sometimes you can have a good idea of what you want the game to "feel" like, but it can be very challenging to actually implement that into something that plays well. If they've been having trouble with that during the development of the game, then I don't think it's certain that Nomura's ideas for the battle design has been fully implemented either. Tabata is also a very gameplay-oriented director, so with him taking over completely, depending on how much he has to work with, his ideas could well be replacing Nomura's, especially if that's what is needed to get the game done.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
I can't imagine what it must be like to be Nomura right now. On one hand, it'd probably not be pretty considering a super high profile project that was seemingly gonna define his career (not to mention make or break the FF brand and SE's name) got snatched away from him after all this time. Especially considering after stunts like having his team pulled to invest resources on abominations like FFXIII while at the time Versus sat on the backburner.
But, he still has KHIII to worry about so I'd think he can't throw the shitstorm that SE's management has been basically asking for for years.
Maybe he should grab Itou, Matsuno, and Uematsu and just head over to Sakaguchi.
But, he still has KHIII to worry about so I'd think he can't throw the shitstorm that SE's management has been basically asking for for years.
Maybe he should grab Itou, Matsuno, and Uematsu and just head over to Sakaguchi.
Or Grab Sakaguchi along with Itou, Matsuno and Uematsu and head over to Monolith Soft instead. The old Squaresoft all together again, basically.
At any rate, I don't know what to think. I don't foresee Nomura saying with Square Enix after KH3 though. Maybe I'm wrong... who knows.
Rising_Hei
Member
I think he didn't exist lol
killatopak
Member
Is there a full list of SE directors and what they're working on right now?
This sounds about right.
I think FFXV also existed in a weird space. FFXIII and XIV were more important, and both required extensive attention. A varying skeleton crew seems to have been assigned to XV, and in the meantime, some of the more important figures (Nomura included) were also assigned to additional projects to remain productive for the company. XV looks to have been perpetually underprioritized, and the fact that it had taken so long to enter full development meant more fleshed out projects with more fleshed out teams easily got most of SE's attention. It's the effect of tackling a high stakes project with way too little focus.
But then from a creative side, XV also couldn't be XIII, and it couldn't be KH, either. It had to feel like a FF game, much moreso than XIII did, and accomplish something that XIII didn't. And look at all of XIII's development issues. Apparently they didn't even nail down the combat system until the demo came out... It's easy to imagine that XV suffered from a lack of focus on the creative side, too, concepts never really coming together correctly, trying to feel out a distinct, more FFish combat system, having a high bar to pass when it comes to basic things like traveling a world, side-quests, and so on. After XIII, especially, they had to get these things right.
It's revealing that several trailers later, the combat system is still poorly understood. I look at the warping mechanic, and all I see is spectacle. Actually, my impression is that the warping mechanic was conjured up for the spectacle, and has been looking for a good implementation ever since. A lot of what we've seen feels that way: spectacle, potential, but looking for signs of being well implemented. And this definitely falls, in no small part, on Nomura.
OmegaSmash
Member
I'm in the "both Nomura and SE are responsible for FF15's horrible development cycle". But still, seeing Nomura get the boot out of his first big budget FF directing gig really sucks.
DangerMouse
Member
That's obviously not what I meant, obviously not everything will be in there and there will likely be some sizable cuts, otherwise yes he would have stayed on they are obviously going to cut stuff and "company man" the game in some fashion beyond what he was willing to accept, like FFXII.
But, my point was that they'd have to scrap everything even from this latest trailer for it not to still feel like Nomura and Nojima's original work because even the trailer with any changes still retains this, just like this did not occur with FFXII, that game still felt like a Matsuno work despite the changes even if incomplete in some areas such as some of the character development. And the gameplay despite any evolution in the details is still set up the way it was originally described. So what I said was I was hoping that most of the story of the characters is still told since that's the part many were waiting for beyond the gameplay, even if the events to tell it have to be cut down or re-written and streamlined or told in different/less locations for production reasons as duckroll says.
Realistically I expect like XII there will be a relatively obvious drop off point, but it will still feel very much like Nomura and Nojima's work. Basically FFXII all over again. And hopefully Nojima is staying on to help mitigate this better than XII's ending.
LiquidSolid
Member
How exactly can you say this when we haven't seen the final product?
I just hope it doesn't have a jarring, shitty ending like FFXII did. That game was amazing up until the point where Matsuno was clearly removed and Square Enix told the new directors to wrap things up, resulting in the story suddenly rushing to a conclusion, the final two shitty dungeons and the dumb final boss fight.
Versus XIII was announced in 2006. XIV was announced in 2010. FFXV was a problem before XIV even stepped on the scene.
I understand you feel for Nomura, but just as you suggest some posters are being cold with regards to his departure, I feel like some of your posts undermine the importance of accountability.
Nomura is (was) director, so yes, the blame is coming down on him. That's kind of how it works, in any industry, on any project.
What do you mean? I'm not judging the final product. I'm just saying that this is exactly what were were promised nearly a decade ago.
What remains to be seen is if the game drops off at a certain point.
This is a sad day. I've been waiting for 8+ years for HIS game. I read when they made it a mainline numbered entry, they had to cut out some of Nomura's ideas so it would fall more in line with traditional FF game. He had an idea about making it a musical apparently. I don't know about that, lol, but it's sad that he doesn't get to see it through to the end.