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[Fnord]

http://reason.com/blog/2018/06/21/aclu-leaked-memo-free-speech

Leaked Internal Memo Reveals the ACLU Is Wavering on Free Speech
"Our defense of speech may have a greater or lesser harmful impact on the equality and justice work to which we are also committed."

Robby Soave|Jun. 21, 2018 8:25 am

The American Civil Liberties Union will weigh its interest in protecting the First Amendment against its other commitments to social justice, racial equality, and women's rights, given the possibility that offensive speech might undermine ACLU goals.

"Our defense of speech may have a greater or lesser harmful impact on the equality and justice work to which we are also committed," wrote ACLU staffers in a confidential memo obtained by former board member Wendy Kaminer.

This is bad. Very bad. A smarter man than me once said, "Popular speech doesn't require protection." And before people that see this as a good thing get too far ahead of themselves, morays change. What is "acceptable" today could very well be "problematic" tomorrow.

 

[take_it_easy]

Not surprising, public discourse in America is moving away from rationality and reason and moving towards thought police stuck in a bubble.

Long term I'm not that worried, these kinds of movements are full of idiots. They'll implode eventually. In the short term they can do immense damage.

I've lost complete respect for the ACLU. I'm not really sure how to counter act this type of behavior. I'd guess the best counter is to point out how horribly wrong taking away individual rights for the greater good ends up hurting society more than helping. Perfect examples are USSR and Maoist China.

 

[Papa]

Not surprising, public discourse in America is moving away from rationality and reason and moving towards thought police stuck in a bubble.

Long term I'm not that worried, these kinds of movements are full of idiots. They'll implode eventually. In the short term they can do immense damage.

I've lost complete respect for the ACLU. I'm not really sure how to counter act this type of behavior. I'd guess the best counter is to point out how horribly wrong taking away individual rights for the greater good ends up hurting society more than helping. Perfect examples are USSR and Maoist China.

It is incredibly sad what the ACLU and SPLC have devolved into.

 

[CampbellzSoup]

Radical left wing group, and as someone said is right popular speech doesn’t need defending.

Also I disagree with most people’s vile speech but I’m glad I live in a country where you can say whatever you want without the fear of being jailed or prosecuted.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

First, this is not a confidential memo. I've worked for non-profits and private, multi-million dollar companies and they have been able to keep their secrets.

Secondly, we already knew about this.

Like last year.

The ethical dilemma of defending free speech began with the racists in Charlottesville.

 

[dolabla]

It is incredibly sad what the ACLU and SPLC have devolved into.

Speaking of the SPLC (you probably already heard about it), they just had to settle out a $3.3 million lawsuit for labeling Maajd Nawaz an anti Muslim extremist: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jun/18/southern-poverty-law-center-settlement-maajid-nawa/

They have turned into a joke of an organization and what little credibility they had left is completely gone. They may be facing other lawsuits as well.

But yeah, it is very sad what they both have become.

 

[take_it_easy]

First, this is not a confidential memo. I've worked for non-profits and private, multi-million dollar companies and they have been able to keep their secrets.

Secondly, we already knew about this.

Like last year.

The ethical dilemma of defending free speech began with the racists in Charlottesville.

From the article:

From a leftist perspective, there’s more to violence than physical aggression — it’s also violent to promote ideas that see other groups of people as less than human, marginalize them, or prevent them from speaking.

These people are arguing against themselves, which is their right. By their own definition, if Nazis/the other side are prevented from speaking, then that's violence. It's easy to see how this logic can be abused.

This is exactly why free speech is important. We don't know what is ethical without discussion. Let the fools speak so you can point out their flaws. If our society can't handle openly discussing nazi ideology then we have bigger problems. I'm not that pessimistic though, I think we can.

In the long run it's better to get all ideas out in the open, examine the pros and cons. Our society is always changing and so is what we view as right and wrong. Free speech is the foundation that allows for the democratization of reason, without it we're on a path to dictatorship.

 

[llien]

"Popular speech doesn't require protection."

Brilliant.

 

[Greedings]

The authoritarians strike again.

This is a scary time to live in, instead of this "you're either with me or against me" rhetoric, we need to go back to centrist, freedom focussed politics. People should be able to work with one another to reach mutual goals, not shoot each other down because they're the enemy.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

Fuck the left wing for throwing free speech under the bus, that right there is the ultimate proof of how full of shit it's become.

Free speech is not for the powerful, it's for the weak and the disenfranchised, they're gonna be sorry not standing up to defend it at the time it needed it the most.

Free speech is a core tenet of freedom, if you're not for it then you're not really for freedom at all, does free speech come at a price? You bet, but, as cliche as it is to say, freedom isn't free.

The authoritarians strike again.

This is a scary time to live in, instead of this "you're either with me or against me" rhetoric, we need to go back to centrist, freedom focussed politics. People should be able to work with one another to reach mutual goals, not shoot each other down because they're the enemy.

I fear it may be too late, I fear that a second civil war is on it's way and depending on who wins America will either wind up a white supremacist fascist country or a Maoist/Soviet style country, neither are good.

America as a free country is dying when neither side of the political spectrum will defend freedom.

 

[Greedings]

America as a free country is dying when neither side of the political spectrum will defend freedom.

This is so true, but you can't fight authoritarianism with liberty. It doesn't work.

A small part of me is interested to see what would happen if a global influencer like the USA went far left or far right. It'd be fascinating to read about in a history book. Most of me doesn't want to see if happen though, it'd have a far too high cost, for the whole world.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

First, this is not a confidential memo. I've worked for non-profits and private, multi-million dollar companies and they have been able to keep their secrets.

Secondly, we already knew about this.

Like last year.

The ethical dilemma of defending free speech began with the racists in Charlottesville.

you seriously are my favorite troll

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

This is so true, but you can't fight authoritarianism with liberty. It doesn't work.

A small part of me is interested to see what would happen if a global influencer like the USA went far left or far right. It'd be fascinating to read about in a history book. Most of me doesn't want to see if happen though, it'd have a far too high cost, for the whole world.

Oh, it would have a domino effect on the rest of the world for sure.

A communist revolution in America would lead to more communist revolutions worldwide and a fascist revolution would lead to more fascist revolutions worldwide.

This is why the situation in America is dangerous for the whole world.

 

[natjjohn]

Who was that nazi guy (very popular among the alt right) that essentially said he/followers don’t really care about free speech. It’s about using the principles/freedoms within the system to ultimately subvert it and when in power, free speech and the other freedoms used to subvert the system are thrown to the way side.

Edit: Was Richard Spencer
Double edit: changed to popular with alt right

 

[It's Jeff]

Free speech is the one thing this country has gotten completely right. The ACLU has done a commendable job of expanding those boundaries, so falling back from that battle makes bothers me a bit.

Yeah, Nazi ideology. I know. Idiotic mumbling online and pitiful demonstrations isn't the menace it's made out to be. If it remains peaceful, great. If it doesn't, the police can kick the right asses for a change. Won't hurt my feelings to see it.

Let me ask - has Nazi ideology ever persuaded you to believe in it? No? 99 percent of the country doesn't either. After hearing the pitch, most of us don't nod our heads and answer, "The Jews are responsible for all that, you say?"

Unless you're one of those Nazis are under every rocks type. Can't stop you from thinking it, but you're straying dangerously into conspiracy theory territory if that's your jam.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

If things do go this way my disappointment will be deep and bitter, but I will always remember this ACLU.

 

[TheMikado]

Our freedoms of speech are literally the only thing protecting our rights. It’s what allowed the civil rights movement, the protests against Vietnam and even today it’s the only things that’s actively allowing us to protest against Donald Trump in almost anyway we like.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Who was that nazi guy (very popular among the right) that essentially said he/followers don’t really care about free speech. It’s about using the principles/freedoms within the system to ultimately subvert it and when in power, free speech and the other freedoms used to subvert the system are thrown to the way side.

Edit: Was Richard Spencer

Though we had already figured him out, it was...a good sport of him to finally throw in the towel and admit what he had been up to all along.

If only people like Milo would do the same....

Spoiler

and Dunki

 

[Fnord]

Who was that nazi guy (very popular among the right) that essentially said he/followers don’t really care about free speech. It’s about using the principles/freedoms within the system to ultimately subvert it and when in power, free speech and the other freedoms used to subvert the system are thrown to the way side.

Edit: Was Richard Spencer

I don't think Spencer is all that popular among much of anyone. I doubt 99.9% of Americans would even know his name were it not for the SJW that punched him on TV.

 

[TheShadowLord]

Who was that nazi guy (very popular among the right) that essentially said he/followers don’t really care about free speech. It’s about using the principles/freedoms within the system to ultimately subvert it and when in power, free speech and the other freedoms used to subvert the system are thrown to the way side.

Edit: Was Richard Spencer

so he was trolling?

 

[Papa]

you seriously are my favorite troll

Come on man, don’t be lazy. I disagree with Phoenix more often than not but I think he’s telling the truth as he sees it. You need to show why he’s wrong, not just label him a troll to enable you to dismiss him outright.

 

[Papa]

Who was that nazi guy (very popular among the right) that essentially said he/followers don’t really care about free speech. It’s about using the principles/freedoms within the system to ultimately subvert it and when in power, free speech and the other freedoms used to subvert the system are thrown to the way side.

Edit: Was Richard Spencer

This is equally lazy. Neat little trick you pulled there equating “the right” with neo Nazis by using Richard Spencer as a mental bridge based on no evidence whatsoever. I hope I don’t ever see you complain about “the left” being characterised as communists.

 

[Papa]

Though we had already figured him out, it was...a good sport of him to finally throw in the towel and admit what he had been up to all along.

If only people like Milo would do the same....

Spoiler

and Dunki

You’re talking out of your ass here. I went and listened to a bunch of Milo videos on YouTube because everyone told me not to. I never once heard him say anything in support of Richard Spencer but heard many jokes at his expense.

 

[TrainedRage]

LOL if you think The ACLU cares about civil liberties in this climate anymore. As far as im concerned they can go hide in a corner like the SPLC has been.

 

[Papa]

LOL if you think The ACLU cares about civil liberties in this climate anymore. As far as im concerned they can go hide in a corner like the SPLC has been.

I suspect they will now given the Maajid Nawaz case. I’d rather they just burn it all down and start again rather than lay low for a bit and let the ideology fester.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

You’re talking out of your ass here. I went and listened to a bunch of Milo videos on YouTube because everyone told me not to. I never once heard him say anything in support of Richard Spencer but heard many jokes at his expense.

I did not say Milo supported Spencer.

I suggested that Milo should also give up on the act....

 

[Papa]

I did not say Milo supported Spencer.

I suggested that Milo should also give up on the act....

Ok, but you’re still equating Milo with an actual neo Nazi in Spencer. I’ve seen no evidence of this, and no, that Buzzfeed hit piece doesn’t count.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Ok, but you’re still equating Milo with an actual neo Nazi in Spencer. I’ve seen no evidence of this, and no, that Buzzfeed hit piece doesn’t count.

They are both alt right, neonazis.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...tors-notes-on-milo-yiannopoulos-book-revealed

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...n-you-look-away-dont-ignore-milo-yiannopoulos

Milo paved the way for Spencer. The latter is simply more accredited
...probably because Milo is gay.....

 

[Papa]

They are both alt right, neonazis.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...tors-notes-on-milo-yiannopoulos-book-revealed

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...n-you-look-away-dont-ignore-milo-yiannopoulos

Milo paved the way for Spencer. The latter is simply more accredited
...probably because Milo is gay.....

I have actually listened to what Milo has to say rather than just read Guardian articles about him. I don’t agree with him all the time, especially about religion and abortion, but he is not alt-right (whatever that actually means) or a Nazi.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Well the thing about word is that they become assumptions and drive decisions.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

Come on man, don’t be lazy. I disagree with Phoenix more often than not but I think he’s telling the truth as he sees it. You need to show why he’s wrong, not just label him a troll to enable you to dismiss him outright.

lmao what? relax i was giving him a compliment

 

[Papa]

lmao what? relax i was giving him a compliment

No you weren’t, and you’re now my least favourite troll.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

No you weren’t, and you’re now my least favourite troll.

quit assuming my intentions bro

 

[Phoenix RISING]

I have actually listened to what Milo has to say rather than just read Guardian articles about him. I don’t agree with him all the time, especially about religion and abortion, but he is not alt-right (whatever that actually means) or a Nazi.

The Guardian is one of the most reputable publications in the world.

See also: BBC

 

[Papa]

The Guardian is one of the most reputable publications in the world.

See also: BBC

Oh ffs haha, maybe you are a troll after all.

 

[oagboghi2]

I did not say Milo supported Spencer.

I suggested that Milo should also give up on the act....

Tottally not a troll guy. I just equate everyone I dislike to being a neo Nazis.

The ACLU is a joke now, and they have been for a while. They have no regard for the Constitution, and they haven't for years.

 

[Dunki]

The Guardian is one of the most reputable publications in the world.

See also: BBC

Depends if you talk about news or the opinion pieces because OH boy

There was a site with a collection of all ridiculous opiniion pieces and it would have been really funny if they were not real....
This is also a masterpiece

News is bad for you – and giving up reading it will make you happier

News is bad for your health. It leads to fear and aggression, and hinders your creativity and ability to think deeply. The solution? Stop consuming it altogether

The Guardian has become already a huge meme^^

 

[5secondrulesucks]

listen dunki i know fenix never has facts straight only talks with emotion cites websites with no credibility is a giant hypocrite in his values has bad intentions for certain types of people says racists things but is cleared because hes talking about white people often trolls people who dont get it and most likely loves anime but as matt404au says im sure he is a good dude

 

[strange headache]

Simple question: Would you rather have somebody say things that you might find vile and objectionable or actually do these things to you?

Freedom of expression is the very mechanism through which we, as civilized people, have managed to channel our urges to resolve conflicts in a violent manner. Take that away and you undermine the whole concept of peaceful democratic decision making through public discourse.

The very notion that free speech is antithetical to equality, is the single most dumb and dangerous idea of this decade. To think that american intellectualism has allowed such a mindset to foster is testament to its ideological brokenness. In their hyperbolic social justice hysteria the far left has somehow managed to equate free speech with Nazism. Yes, free speech means dealing with unchaste ideas, but that's the whole point behind it! Banning these discussions will not change anybody's mind and will never ever manage to get rid of these ideas. On the contrary, it will essentially rob people of any means to educate others.

If anything, restricting free speech will only make things much worse for those fighting for equality. The ACLU seems to have embraced the idea that simply simply regulating away certain expressions will banish these thoughts from human minds. It's an utter folly and will only lend influence and credence to those who are being silenced. Not only will it make your own arguments seem so weak that they are in need of protections through restricting speech, but such an approach will also drive people into the arms of the very pied pipers you try to oppose. Forbidden ideas are interesting not because they are necessarily true, but because they are forbidden.

At no point in history has free speech ever been to the benefit of the rich and powerful, if anything it has always been the tool of the downtrodden and disenfranchised. Restricting speech in accordance with ever changing cultural and political trends will sooner or later result in these restrictions being turned against those seeking to make this world a better place.

The future is indeed a boot stamping on a human face
— for ever.

 

[Razorback]

News is bad for you – and giving up reading it will make you happier



The Guardian has become already a huge meme^^

Not sure if you agree or disagree with that piece but I think it makes a lot of good points.

Anyway, to stay on topic:

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels.
For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."
- H. L. Mencken

 

[LegendOfKage]

They are both alt right, neonazis.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...tors-notes-on-milo-yiannopoulos-book-revealed

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...n-you-look-away-dont-ignore-milo-yiannopoulos

Milo paved the way for Spencer. The latter is simply more accredited
...probably because Milo is gay.....

I might be getting some of the details wrong here, but I decided to watch a Milo video one day about a topic, because it sounded completely bizarre, and I was curious about his response. If I'm remembering correctly, it was him responding to a story about a doctor in Canada who was being sued by a transgender woman who the doctor refused to give an exam. The doctor was a gynecologist, the transgender woman did not have a vagina, and the court ruled against the doctor. Their final ruling decided that the doctor could still have given a gynecological exam using her rectum.

I had never heard of the source of the article before, so I rewound the video to the point where it was mentioned. The words fake news are thrown around a lot these days, but they're definitely worth each and every letter when you're talking about a site devoted specifically to satirical news stories that were completely fabricated. A 60 second google search is all it took me to learn the site reporting this news is about as credible as The Onion. Milo, though? Well, I wouldn't call him a journalist, that's for sure. That entire site is satire, and he just went right along spreading this nonsense as if it were fact.

So I'd call Milo a lot of things, but journalist isn't one of them, and neither is neonazi. I think the guy is pretty awful, don't get me wrong, but I also think you diminish the power of a word like nazi when you use it to describe a half-Jewish gay man who dates black guys. That, and I'm sure inaccuracy and hyperbole about the guy just gives him more ammunition and fame. Much better to fight that sort of thing with the example I listed above. Nobody should be paying any attention to someone like that.

 

[Dunki]

I might be getting some of the details wrong here, but I decided to watch a Milo video one day about a topic, because it sounded completely bizarre, and I was curious about his response. If I'm remembering correctly, it was him responding to a story about a doctor in Canada who was being sued by a transgender woman who the doctor refused to give an exam. The doctor was a gynecologist, the transgender woman did not have a vagina, and the court ruled against the doctor. Their final ruling decided that the doctor could still have given a gynecological exam using her rectum.

I had never heard of the source of the article before, so I rewound the video to the point where it was mentioned. The words fake news are thrown around a lot these days, but they're definitely worth each and every letter when you're talking about a site devoted specifically to satirical news stories that were completely fabricated. A 60 second google search is all it took me to learn the site reporting this news is about as credible as The Onion. Milo, though? Well, I wouldn't call him a journalist, that's for sure. That entire site is satire, and he just went right along spreading this nonsense as if it were fact.

So I'd call Milo a lot of things, but journalist isn't one of them, and neither is neonazi. I think the guy is pretty awful, don't get me wrong, but I also think you diminish the power of a word like nazi when you use it to describe a half-Jewish gay man who dates black guys. That, and I'm sure inaccuracy and hyperbole about the guy just gives him more ammunition and fame. Much better to fight that sort of thing with the example I listed above. Nobody should be paying any attention to someone like that.

He is something I would call professional troll who perfectly had market his political views into it.So he is a politician. Milo only became big only because of his haters. After Berkly there were several german articles which made him look like the actual victim of the radical left. IT was intersting to see and without his pedophile mentions he would have probably become a very high rank politician because he also was what radical left groups feared the most. He is a jewish homosexual.

The notion that Milo is a Nazi is ridiculous because Nazi would have killed him a long time ago. He is right he is an anti feminist and he is anti Islam which many people are these days. So if this what makes hima Nazi then many are.

 

[Papa]

Depends if you talk about news or the opinion pieces because OH boy

There was a site with a collection of all ridiculous opiniion pieces and it would have been really funny if they were not real....
This is also a masterpiece

News is bad for you – and giving up reading it will make you happier



The Guardian has become already a huge meme^^

Don’t forget Julie Bindel and Laurie Penny. The Guardian is a joke.

 

[EviLore]

Simple question: Would you rather have somebody say things that you might find vile and objectionable or actually do these things to you?

Freedom of expression is the very mechanism through which we, as civilized people, have managed to channel our urges to resolve conflicts in a violent manner. Take that away and you undermine the whole concept of peaceful democratic decision making through public discourse.

Indeed.

The very notion that free speech is antithetical to equality, is the single most dumb and dangerous idea of this decade. To think that american intellectualism has allowed such a mindset to foster is testament to its ideological brokenness. In their hyperbolic social justice hysteria the far left has somehow managed to equate free speech with Nazism. Yes, free speech means dealing with unchaste ideas, but that's the whole point behind it! Banning these discussions will not change anybody's mind and will never ever manage to get rid of these ideas. On the contrary, it will essentially rob people of any means to educate others.

If anything, restricting free speech will only make things much worse for those fighting for equality. The ACLU seems to have embraced the idea that simply simply regulating away certain expressions will banish these thoughts from human minds. It's an utter folly and will only lend influence and credence to those who are being silenced. Not only will it make your own arguments seem so weak that they are in need of protections through restricting speech, but such an approach will also drive people into the arms of the very pied pipers you try to oppose. Forbidden ideas are interesting not because they are necessarily true, but because they are forbidden.

At no point in history has free speech ever been to the benefit of the rich and powerful, if anything it has always been the tool of the downtrodden and disenfranchised. Restricting speech in accordance with ever changing cultural and political trends will sooner or later result in these restrictions being turned against those seeking to make this world a better place.

The future is indeed a boot stamping on a human face
— for ever.

Things have gotten really weird really quickly in terms of outcomes to discourse. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know of course. The groundwork was laid over the last decade or more, but Brexit into the 2016 election tilted a lot of people and we saw a demographic shift at the same time. This talk hits a lot of relevant points and shares some alarming data on the general dysfunction of the emerging social media generation:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/jona...-ethics-in-a-political-charged-world.1463132/

Anyone who hasn't watched that probably should. Of course, it's millennials who created social media, millennials who raised this generation, and ultimately it can't be about assigning blame and victimhood when that reductive thinking is part of the problem. We have to be mindful of our own influences -- myself very much included -- and work together to change outcomes.

I don't stay in touch with most of the Europeans I've met and become friends with over the years because they've mostly deleted their social media accounts, hah. They have the right idea on a personal level, but outcomes to discourse are directly worse off without those folks present, too (and I could've stayed in touch still if I didn't treat social media as the only way to do it with my selfish American attitude). If everyone does the expedient thing from here we're going to see some proper doom and gloom.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

If the best y'all got is "lol fake news" every time I cite another international news publication, then I win

 

[Dunki]

If the best y'all got is "lol fake news" every time I cite another international news publication, then I win

The Guardian is not really a very trusty news source these days and that is the problem. There are not many trusty news sources left no matter what political side they are on. Journalists needs to be trained and educated better and also they need to take responsibility and face consequences for lies and accusations. Otherwise Journalism will always be the most mistrusted Industry in the western World.

 

[oagboghi2]

If the best y'all got is "lol fake news" every time I cite another international news publication, then I win

International new....like FoxNews, or the Independent, or the wall street journal or RT or any other Boogeyman news source liberals like to cry about? Okay

 

[Phoenix RISING]

International new....like FoxNews, or the Independent, or the wall street journal or RT or any other Boogeyman news source liberals like to cry about? Okay

Fox News the website is okay most of the time. I've shared from them before, especially when they break stories parallel with the Associated Press. The network is trash.

WSJ is in the top echelon of reputable sources with the likes of Guardian, Al Jazeera, AP, Reuters, NPR, BBC....

RT is Breitbart level, and the Independent doesn't even register.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

The Guardian is one of the most reputable publications in the world.

See also: BBC

Yeah no. The Guardian has been a pile of steaming shit for like... 2 or 3 years now. They are up there with CNN and Fox in how unapologetically biased they are and misrepresent occurrences.

Look Richard Spencer is a piece of shit. Milo is a piece of shit. But they are completely different pieces of shit for different reasons.

 

[strange headache]

I don't stay in touch with most of the Europeans I've met and become friends with over the years because they've mostly deleted their social media accounts, hah.

Things have gotten weird because the online generation is confusing the internet with the real world. Most of my friends and acquaintances have either deleted their social media accounts, or use them as glorified phone books. While people are bickering online in their little virtual thought bubbles and sharing their glorified content in hope of being perceived better than they really are, others are enjoying the real world out there.