SwiftDeath
Member
How about we apply modern tactics to the situation?
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The best path the fellowship could have taken.
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Sounds legit
Those Goblins would probably crave revenge on dwarfs and hobbits then. Thanks for the answer.
A longer route would have guaranteed failure. Frodo was already breaking as it is.
Now as for the Eagles, I imagine Sauron would have some form of anti-air defense. Either the Nazgull patroling by themselves or Orcs stationed as archery support. Not to mention it would be fairly obvious what they were doing.
Now as for the Eagles, I imagine Sauron would have some form of anti-air defense. Either the Nazgull patroling by themselves or Orcs stationed as archery support. Not to mention it would be fairly obvious what they were doing.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
For the last time
Oh come on. The sky is a huuuuuuuge place to hide a bird. And even if the Eagles didn't fly them into Mordor it would have cut months off their journey getting to it. I don't buy the fact that the "Eagles would not do it" because Tolkien used them whenever he felt like it to solve a problem expeditiously.
dodosaurus
Member
i can't stop laughing
Wouldn't they have crossed Caradhras over the misty mountains had they not been detected by Saruman? With just the 4 hobbits+Gandalf they could have just avoided touching anything Rohan and Saruman. Just climb over the mountains to get to Gondor. They would have to stealth all the way through but with just 4 hobbits + Gandalf's magic it would have been possible.
Which is why I also had them track close to the mountain ranges afterwards. South Gondor is debatable land, I'm assuming Denathor still has influence in the region. Gondor by this time was seasoned in fighting Mordor even under Sauron's resurgence. Sure there's orcs securing the western end of Gondor too but Sauron had his eye and main forces towards the east where Gondor was giving them a handful.
Of course convincing Denathor to provide cover for the party is another matter. Boromir did show he could listen to reason so maybe Gandalf could have reached Denathor through Boromir. And I should've taken into account the rings seduction on everyone.
Boobahzone
Member
You mean the flying Nazgul that the Eagles smack down in a minute in RotK?
dragonyeuw
Member
Good point, it's been a while. So yeah, what about eagle express?
bengraven
Member
Keep in mind: we saw the path that Gandalf chose to take them there. This is a man who has traveled the Middle-Earth for thousands of years.
Any other path would have either been far too long, far too dangerous (just because Tolkien didn't write the dangers doesn't mean they didn't exist), and Gandalf would know the right way to go.
He basically admitted to it.
Any other path would have either been far too long, far too dangerous (just because Tolkien didn't write the dangers doesn't mean they didn't exist), and Gandalf would know the right way to go.
He basically admitted to it.
WaterAstro
Member
The world is round, folks.
veloxStrix
Banned
Doesn't happen in the books. The eagles arrive just as the Nazgul turn to go and try stop Frodo, which doesn't happen because by then the ring is already melting away.
mcz117chief
Member
I think the route they took was pretty good, with the sole exception of going through Moria. I know they couldn't have known about the fact that everybody there is dead and that Balrog was loose but still, they should have went straight for the river, go downstream and either
A) Get off early, link up with rangers if Osgiliath was too hot and go straight for Mount Doom or
B) Go all the way to Osgiliath, gather the Gondor army and do a mad dash for Mount Doom
Every other route would take a crazy amount of time the Free Peoples didn't have.
Should've gone the way Bilbo went towards the lonely mountain, but then went south to Mordor. Maybe skirted around the forest to avoid spiders if possible.
Has that area not fallen to The Witch King? This is one thing that's shown in The Hobbit as well.
Bedameister
Member
Would have been a very short movie
How hard is it to do this:
The anti-eagle theories don't make any sense. Flying is preferable, fast, and they could basically avoid everything that happened to them and get there in 30 minutes.
If you think eagles are cheap and trivialize your story then stop using them every movie as a deus ex machina.
Secrecy goes out of the window when you're flying. There's no way they wouldn't have been detected by everyone. This is a world of magic and where a magic ring can pull any living soul under its will.
It took an army of eagles to do that. Nazguls were severely outnumbered in the air and Sauron wanted the Nazgul's off the air and on Frodo. In a normal scenario the eagle army wouldn't make it through Saruman in Isenguard. And if they did somehow, the Wraiths would effectively subdue them if they got anywhere close to Mordor's mountains.
This.
The ring corrupts extremely qyickly. Hobbits are gentle by nature, but Smeagol killed his brother immediately over it. Sam held it for what, a few minutes, and hesitated to return it. Boromir, faramir, aragorn all found themselves betraying frodo just for the chance to hold it. Let's not even get into the dwarves and elves, especially the dwarves.
Frodo (and bilbo) are extremely unusual in their resilience. The ring corrupts most mortals and non mortals almost immediately . If they had gone around mordor through the desert, the journey would have been longer and more dangerous, and the ring would have corrupted Frodo or those accompanying him before they reached the crater.
If they tried a frontal assault, they would not have been able to penetrate mordors defenses, and the Eagles, even if they had agreed to help, would have been shot down by orc archers or corrupted by the ring.
And Saruman would have stopped them at isengard
John Dunbar
correct about everything
someone just add "potential nuke zone" over mordor and no planning will be necessary.
Enosh
Member
you get smited for going west
edit: or you can't even get to that continent, idk how exactly it works, I remember reading that there used to be some Atlantis like civilization a bit off middle earth that Sauron tricked to sail west to gain immortality and they got their island sunk as punishment
The world is round, folks.
There is an uncharted continent off to the left and the area where they come in from the right is through an entire other continent full of hostile Eastern men, uncharted by the men of Middle Earth. Between that and oceans to cross, it would take years if they aren't outright killed.
Second Age but you get the point
John Dunbar
correct about everything
when did aragorn do this?
SwiftDeath
Member
See top post of this page???
Secrecy is not a problem so long as Saruman doesn't find out. The Nazgul don't have a palantir, and there's nothing I know of that says Sauron knows everything they do, just that he can direct them with his will.
Getting back to the actual story, remember that the path actually taken was likely what Gandalf had in mind. If they had successfully taken the Red Horn Pass, they would have wound up in Lorien anyway. He would have taken the hobbits toward Mordor while Aragorn and Boromir headed south. Gimli and Lego are up for debate. The path was chosen to get as close to Mordor as safely as possible, but after that, chances would have had to be taken.
Getting back to the actual story, remember that the path actually taken was likely what Gandalf had in mind. If they had successfully taken the Red Horn Pass, they would have wound up in Lorien anyway. He would have taken the hobbits toward Mordor while Aragorn and Boromir headed south. Gimli and Lego are up for debate. The path was chosen to get as close to Mordor as safely as possible, but after that, chances would have had to be taken.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
oh, you should not have put it in quotes. i didn't even look at it. well done.
Makoto-Yuki
Banned
i don't know if the eagles would've done that or not but either way it'd be a pretty boring story to read if it were just a bunch of hobbits sitting on an eagle all the way.
More Fun To Compute
Member
Middle earth seems to have some seriously small continental plates. I'd guess that most of the major locations are places on highly active fault lines.
S
Steve.1981
Unconfirmed Member
This thread is cool. I've never seen Boromir's awesome catapult plan before. But most people are forgetting that when the Fellowship set out, they weren't heading straight for Mordor. Gandalf was leading them to Lothlorien.
LittleBoots
Member
I thought the only reason the eagles helped Gandalf in the first place was because they owed him some kind of favor, of which I don't know. Anyway, they're completely neutral and like to keep to themselves.
Frodo, Gollum, and Sam had to be incredibly careful about what path they chose to take to Mordor. It wasn't a good idea to go through Nazgul territory and venture so close to Isengard.
Frodo, Gollum, and Sam had to be incredibly careful about what path they chose to take to Mordor. It wasn't a good idea to go through Nazgul territory and venture so close to Isengard.
Modern? You forget Sauron could just DO that.
I know. As I've said, I would have already done all the work and start a new thread for it. But this needs a Google spreadsheet with formulas to make it as easy as possible to participate. Maybe even some IFTT recipes as well for automatic running/walking/biking app integration. But I'm a dumb dumb and can't do it.
From what I got out of reading the Silmarillion, the world was created by god, Ainur, who is responsible for all of creation. He is the creator of the Valar (demi- gods) and the Maier (angles like beings that include Gandalf and Sauramon). His personal creations of the world are the elves, followed by the humans. The demi-gods are suppose to look after and guide creations of Ainur, but like to take a hands off approach. By the third age, they are in the process of removing themselves and the elves from the world.
The Eagles are the eyes (and creation?) of the leader of the demi-gods, Manwë. Hence, they do not mingle often denizens of the world because tools of Manwë. They are very deus ex machina because of this IMHO. If the lesser race prove themselves worthy, Manwë may grant them a special favor by having/letting the Eagles intervene.
No one but Manwë can just called the Eagles to do their bidding. Gandalf is able to call on special favors, because he is working the Valar. But they are just that: favors. The Eagles are no one but Manwë's to command.
The Eagles are the eyes (and creation?) of the leader of the demi-gods, Manwë. Hence, they do not mingle often denizens of the world because tools of Manwë. They are very deus ex machina because of this IMHO. If the lesser race prove themselves worthy, Manwë may grant them a special favor by having/letting the Eagles intervene.
No one but Manwë can just called the Eagles to do their bidding. Gandalf is able to call on special favors, because he is working the Valar. But they are just that: favors. The Eagles are no one but Manwë's to command.
ScottSullivan
Member
I'm glad people are mentioning Elrond. That totally dawned on me how he fucked up not stopping Isildur
Boromir took nearly the same path when he journeyed from Gondor to Rivendell, and...
An appendice in the Unfinished Tales notes:
The fellowship would have had to cross two rivers, cross over deforested, open terrain with no cover except perhaps in the crumbling ruins of old Tharbad. And rather conspicuously, I might add -- a party of hobbits, a dwarf, and a elf upon a road frequented by refugees and ruffians from the South, where rumor of the events at Bree would have surely spread like wildfire. The Fellowship already had a hard time maintaining secrecy in the desolation of Hollin, a hundred miles or more from Isengard.
Bypassing Lorien means no cloaks, no phial, and no rope, not to mention the implications that would arise without Gandalf the White or Gollum. And I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the river the Black Riders end up washing up on, cause I bet they're pissed.
An appendice in the Unfinished Tales notes:
The fellowship would have had to cross two rivers, cross over deforested, open terrain with no cover except perhaps in the crumbling ruins of old Tharbad. And rather conspicuously, I might add -- a party of hobbits, a dwarf, and a elf upon a road frequented by refugees and ruffians from the South, where rumor of the events at Bree would have surely spread like wildfire. The Fellowship already had a hard time maintaining secrecy in the desolation of Hollin, a hundred miles or more from Isengard.
Bypassing Lorien means no cloaks, no phial, and no rope, not to mention the implications that would arise without Gandalf the White or Gollum. And I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the river the Black Riders end up washing up on, cause I bet they're pissed.
Lord Panda
The Sea is Always Right
I always thought that they should have taken it to Valinor.
Yeah I know that Gandalf said the folks in the Uttermost West would have refused it, but I think that's complete bullshit.
Sauron's is a Maiar, and all of his instruments and tools are wreaking havoc among Middle Earth. How many people died by his hands, how much blood is on Manwe's and Illuvatar's hands due to their blinding incompetence. How many people died at the hands of the Balrog and various dragons which are also agents of Valinor corrupted by Morgoth.
If the Host of the Valar had did their job in the War of Power, Sauron would be in chains until the end times with his pimp Melkor instead of being let loose upon the world. Remember, they captured Sauron during the war, and then they let him go ...
This was a problem the Uttermost West created and one that they should have personally remedied instead of their BS token effort with sending in the lesser Maiar which we all know as the Wizards. Yep let's send these entities that are seriously nerfed, takes ages to get anything done, fallible (good work Saruman and Radagast), and plain incompetent (good work Blue Wizards). Heck, even the wizards when they received their orders in Valinor didn't want to go to Middle Earth. I can understand their reluctance - even I wouldn't want to go to a place where people of all races (well except the Elves I guess who have that magical Valinor Permanent Residency Visa) are routinely butchered, murdered, ravaged and generally have a pretty shit quality of life.
Gandalf and all of his buddies pretty much got lucky and would have failed if it wasn't for Eru's rare moment of compassion or wry amusement. Not to mention that Arda / Middle Earth herself is still corrupted by Morgoth's influence from aeons past.
The Powers of Valinor and Eru himself should be tried for war crimes through their inaction, incompetence, and indifference - they could have ended this at any time but instead decided to see how high the body count would get up to before considering putting down their shimmering wine glasses. Sauron was one of them and they should have taken direct responsibility for him instead of shifting the task to the generations of victims under his shadow.
Arseholes.
Yeah I know that Gandalf said the folks in the Uttermost West would have refused it, but I think that's complete bullshit.
Sauron's is a Maiar, and all of his instruments and tools are wreaking havoc among Middle Earth. How many people died by his hands, how much blood is on Manwe's and Illuvatar's hands due to their blinding incompetence. How many people died at the hands of the Balrog and various dragons which are also agents of Valinor corrupted by Morgoth.
If the Host of the Valar had did their job in the War of Power, Sauron would be in chains until the end times with his pimp Melkor instead of being let loose upon the world. Remember, they captured Sauron during the war, and then they let him go ...
This was a problem the Uttermost West created and one that they should have personally remedied instead of their BS token effort with sending in the lesser Maiar which we all know as the Wizards. Yep let's send these entities that are seriously nerfed, takes ages to get anything done, fallible (good work Saruman and Radagast), and plain incompetent (good work Blue Wizards). Heck, even the wizards when they received their orders in Valinor didn't want to go to Middle Earth. I can understand their reluctance - even I wouldn't want to go to a place where people of all races (well except the Elves I guess who have that magical Valinor Permanent Residency Visa) are routinely butchered, murdered, ravaged and generally have a pretty shit quality of life.
Gandalf and all of his buddies pretty much got lucky and would have failed if it wasn't for Eru's rare moment of compassion or wry amusement. Not to mention that Arda / Middle Earth herself is still corrupted by Morgoth's influence from aeons past.
The Powers of Valinor and Eru himself should be tried for war crimes through their inaction, incompetence, and indifference - they could have ended this at any time but instead decided to see how high the body count would get up to before considering putting down their shimmering wine glasses. Sauron was one of them and they should have taken direct responsibility for him instead of shifting the task to the generations of victims under his shadow.
Arseholes.
Union Carbine
Member
I don't think it would have mattered. I think Tolkien said that Mount Doom was one place in which the ring could not be resisted which was why Frodo was always doomed to fail there.
After the witch king had died.
Rushersauce
Banned
OMFGBecause Elrond was no better than Isildur.
Just avoid Rohan and Rivendell entirely and go through from behind Gondor.
All they'd have to do is be sneaky as hell and they could have avoided most of the enemy by going further east. Faramir would have given them cover through half the journey too. Most mountains have safe passages too, they'd need to cross the rivers. Did Gandalf fuck up?
Probably already covered but others but here's my thoughts on why this wouldn't work.
Firstly, there's no fellowship until Rivendell so it doesn't make sense to draw the path starting at Hobbiton. That would entail Frodo and Sam walking straight towards danger, and walking away from Gandalf and Aragorn, two big reasons the Hobbits survive Bree/Weathertop/Approach to Rivendell.
Second, the reason they go to Rivendell is for the Council of Elrond, where all the different races get together to decide 100% whether it's the One Ring and if it is, what to do with it. So basically they weren't even sure what they were dealing with yet, let alone decided on how to destroy it.
Third, and this is a big one, the Nazgul. They're coming straight from Minas Morgul, so would more than likely go straight past Isengard on their way to find "Baggins". The path you've drawn would lead them straight into the Nazgul. Sure they have to deal with them on their way to Rivendell anyway, but it's only Rivendell, Arwen and Elrond that saves Frodo from almost dying. If the Nazgul caught them without help the ring would be in Sauron's hand before you could say "share the load".
Fourth, Saruman by this point has more than likely rallied the wild men (they have a more specific name but it escapes me, there's a scene where he talks to them in TTT) in Dunland, so the fellowship would be waltzing straight through their land for a while.
Fifth, the lands of western and southern Gondor aren't familiar to me. Although we know from the books and movies that pirates frequent the coast in these areas. And, as you go further east, you're heading into Southron territory.
Finally, that whole southern mountain range of Mordor would most likely have many, many outposts with at the very least a skeleton crew of orcs guarding them. Once you've passed those mountain, heading west back into the center of Mordor would have been very difficult both physically and mentally for all involved. Not to mention the huge army of orcs.
elrechazado
Banned
Ainur isn't God, that's eru illuvatar.
Nevermind getting to Mordor. I always thought it was funny that no one actually had a plan for how they were getting into Mordor and past 10,000+ orcs and Sauron. Even assuming the full fellowship had made it.. they had no plan at all. As it is, it took Aragorn winning two battles against all odds, then leading his army on a suicide mission with impeccable timing to the gates of Mordor. I can't think of a single solution other than leading a suicide attack on the gates and hoping Frodo isn't sleeping or dead.
I know. As I've said, I would have already done all the work and start a new thread for it. But this needs a Google spreadsheet with formulas to make it as easy as possible to participate. Maybe even some IFTT recipes as well for automatic running/walking/biking app integration. But I'm a dumb dumb and can't do it.
Back over the summer I made this spreadsheet based on the Eowyn Challenge's figures. It is slightly different though: it incorporates some but not all of the optional extensions, and it is organized to follow the sequence of events in the book as close as possible rather than simply point A to point B.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rF8vC1TzlR8VoNeRwoVRBogQ0rsSXCgm-7_wScdKLUo/edit?usp=sharing
This is such a common opinion that it's often treated as fact, but I don't think it's really borne out by the text. The Eagles in The Silmarillion are willing to serve as Turgon's air force even though he's a Noldorin exile out of favor with most of the Valar. The Eagles in TH and LOTR (who were probably not Maiar, just descended from them) appear to act as an independent entity with their own interests and grudges, such as with the orcs of the Misty Mountains and the humans of the Vales of Anduin. However, they are willing to participate in the struggle against Sauron and even subordinate themselves to others in the alliance of the Free Peoples. For example, when Gwaihir rescues Gandalf from the mountains after his battle with the Balrog, he (Gwaihir) states that he was "sent" by the "command" of Galadriel to retrieve Gandalf.
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