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[JaseC]

Just spent the last 2 hrs reading both articles. They complement each other in a weird way. In all Valve had the most to loose. Behind the scenes info is always so fascinating.

The anticipation is almost like the current one waiting for episode 3.

Let's say Episode Three doesn't hit until late 2012. That'll have been a five-year development cycle (give or take a month or two), which is the same as HL2. Granted, it's likely the game hasn't been the focus of the studio at any point thus far, but it's still a very long development period nonetheless.

The game had sold 8M+ copies by the time the kid confessed to it and Valve still wanted to set him up? Bunch of morans.

Read the article more thoroughly next time, if you've read it at all.

I never said that it's right to not punish him. He got his punishment for his wrongdoings. What I don't understand is that some of you say the punishment wasn't "hard enough". In my opinion the punishment was the right one.

There was no punishment for what he did. Valve, for whatever reason, never pursued.

 

[Jenga]

kudos to valve and gabe for ultimately deciding to take the higher road and just let the kid alone

I agree he deserved punishment, but ultimately I applaud Valve for cutting him some slack and not ruining his life

 

[Stabby McSter]

oh wow i wish i didn't read that last page

but i do like beeeettaaz. i've been youtubing footage of the leaked maps and whatever.

and hurhur, i got an ad for the vw jetta

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

Yeah, it was a big load of bullshit.

Pretty much all the scenes that used "advanced AI" were scripted to hell.

when the Strider reaches that location where the orange trigger is, it's scripted to fire at the "bullseye" point right under the arch.

also a few entities ontop the arch telling the game where the pieces of the building should be directed to.

I think you'll find a lot of companies do this, especially when they're showing game footage to the press and nobody's at a PC actually controlling the thing. When you're on a deadline to create this amazing showcase of what your game is going to look like 3-9 months from now, there are certain things you have to fudge a little bit.

That being so scripted doesn't mean shit, because that's not a gameplay map. As I recall, it was a map created specially for the purposes of that video and contained nothing else but the little area for the Strider to demonstrate ducking under the walkway.

There is no grand exposé of Valve being frauds like some of you are implying. What you plan for a game and what you think is plausible to do in a game is rarely how the final product ends up. That is a fact that extends beyond Valve and covers just about every company that's ever had to design a game.

In the end, Valve implemented more time- and cost-effective alternatives, and the game was no worse off for it. If it wasn't for the leak, most people probably wouldn't have even noticed. Getting mad about something like that is getting mad at the game development process itself.

The only thing dumb about Valve's methods is that they seriously thought they could launch the game when they originally promised (which, as I recall, was September 2003 - three months after it was announced). Even without the leak throwing a monkey wrench in to all of this, it probably would've been delayed to sometime in 2004.

 

[Stallion Free]

Yeah I loved how people acted like Valve was the first to fake a feature in a demonstration when that happens all the time at E3, to a ridiculous degree.

And since only Valve has ever faked something they deserve a potentially massive financial and morale hit.

Man, some people have a really fucked sense of justice.

 

[Xater]

WTF did this thread turn into on the last page? Someone please tell this minus_273 guy got permabanned.

 

[Feep]

WTF did this thread turn into on the last page? Someone please tell this minus_273 guy got permabanned.

I'd imagine it was a perma. GAF mods don't take kindly to that kind of bullshit.

In any case, I often think about stuff like that supposed strider "AI", and how it would be able to dynamically figure out whether to duck under something or not. It seems like an unbelievable waste of resources, and if the player goes through the game one time, how would he or she even know what was happening behind the scenes? I applaud the decision to not bother and focus on more important parts of development.

 

[JaseC]

The only thing dumb about Valve's methods is that they seriously thought they could launch the game when they originally promised (which, as I recall, was September 2003 - three months after it was announced). Even without the leak throwing a monkey wrench in to all of this, it probably would've been delayed to sometime in 2004.

It wasn't "dumb" at all - the game was content complete. At least, they considered it to be. It's not as though Gabe and co. looked at the whiteboard full of things to do and said, "Yeah, we can do that."

 

[Xater]

In any case, I often think about stuff like that supposed strider "AI", and how it would be able to dynamically figure out whether to duck under something or not. It seems like an unbelievable waste of resources, and if the player goes through the game one time, how would he or she even know what was happening behind the scenes? I applaud the decision to not bother and focus on more important parts of development.

it might have been a waste of ressources, but sometimes I still wonder how HL2 would have played like if all that dynamic AI stuff was actually in the game. The game could have been even more mindblowing.

 

[Hot Coldman]

holy fucking shit wtf happened here

jeez, was that a junior who just rode in on his fucked up horse?

 

[Castor Krieg]

The only thing dumb about Valve's methods is that they seriously thought they could launch the game when they originally promised (which, as I recall, was September 2003 - three months after it was announced). Even without the leak throwing a monkey wrench in to all of this, it probably would've been delayed to sometime in 2004.

Valve started working on Half-Life 2 in 1999, in Gamespot article Gabe mentions he gave the September 30th date because he was certain they will make it. Later in July they realized they will miss the deadline and they sort of panicked and decided to sit quietly in hopes it will go away. Yeah, not the best thing to do, but it happens.

Way better was Romero saying he will build Daikatana from scratch in 7 months. God, Carmack must've laughted his ass off.

 

[Ihya]

Whoa, holy train wreck of a thread batman! Hope that bad lasts...

 

[I <3 Memes]

This just proves my theory that no matter how benign the subject matter any thread on the internet will turn into a raging argument by page 3.

 

[Sectus]

I think you'll find a lot of companies do this, especially when they're showing game footage to the press and nobody's at a PC actually controlling the thing. When you're on a deadline to create this amazing showcase of what your game is going to look like 3-9 months from now, there are certain things you have to fudge a little bit.

That being so scripted doesn't mean shit, because that's not a gameplay map. As I recall, it was a map created specially for the purposes of that video and contained nothing else but the little area for the Strider to demonstrate ducking under the walkway.

There is no grand exposé of Valve being frauds like some of you are implying. What you plan for a game and what you think is plausible to do in a game is rarely how the final product ends up. That is a fact that extends beyond Valve and covers just about every company that's ever had to design a game.

In the end, Valve implemented more time- and cost-effective alternatives, and the game was no worse off for it. If it wasn't for the leak, most people probably wouldn't have even noticed. Getting mad about something like that is getting mad at the game development process itself.

The only thing dumb about Valve's methods is that they seriously thought they could launch the game when they originally promised (which, as I recall, was September 2003 - three months after it was announced). Even without the leak throwing a monkey wrench in to all of this, it probably would've been delayed to sometime in 2004.

I know it's pretty common in the game industry, but it doesn't make it less stupid. Devoting a big chunk of the development process just to have something good to show at E3 is not as good thing in my eyes. What about just wait until they have something impressive to show which will also be in the final game?

And also, it's one thing to show content which will eventually be cut (they've got a good excuse that they didn't know better at the time), but pretending powerful AI is controlling things which are actually scripted is just an outright lie.

 

[Boonoo]

it might have been a waste of ressources, but sometimes I still wonder how HL2 would have played like if all that dynamic AI stuff was actually in the game. The game could have been even more mindblowing.

It's neat that it finally started to come true in Ep2. I was reading that the dynamic AI work at play during the final battle was rolled into L4D's director.

 

[Link1110]

2 years probation is fine for the way things worked out on the end. 8 million copies sold before the trial, and I'm sure at least a few million more have been sold since (especially if you count The Orange Box.)

This is also before torrent lawsuits, so a ton more people probably downloaded it back then than would today.

And before you start accusing me of usuing hindsight here, of course I am. This happened 8 years ago and I never heard of it, and many in this thread (NOT ALL) are probably the same.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

I know it's pretty common in the game industry, but it doesn't make it less stupid. Devoting a big chunk of the development process just to have something good to show at E3 is not as good thing in my eyes. What about just wait until they have something impressive to show which will also be in the final game?

And also, it's one thing to show content which will eventually be cut (they've got a good excuse that they didn't know better at the time), but pretending powerful AI is controlling things which are actually scripted is just an outright lie.

It might be an outright lie, but Valve certainly isn't the first (or last!) developer to do it. What you plan on doing and what you can actually do in a cost-effective manner are two different things; and what we do know is that Valve clearly has an interest in furthering game A.I. (look at the Team Fortress 2 bots last year). Gabe Newell himself has come out and said that Valve doesn't like to bang their heads against a wall on something if it holds up production on the rest of the game.

As for devoting time to an E3 presentation, that's definitely something that's required. If it wasn't for E3, it would be for PAX, or GDC, or whatever else. It's good press and good marketing. Sure, it puts developers in to weird situations like this, but that's just part of the biz as far as I'm concerned. Hollywood frequently starts teasing movies before they're finalized. It's not too uncommon to see trailers use scenes that actually end up playing out differently (or in some cases are missing entirely) in the actual film.

That's just how it is, and how it's always going to be. Unless some kind of "you will get fined thousands of dollars for this" sort of law gets passed, there's always going to be a developer looking to get an upper-hand on their competitors, and if that means booking an E3 demo for a project that's 9-12 months away from release, well, they're still going to do it.

 

[Melchiah]

Where Mama Robotnik and co were, when big bad Valve harassed poor little Gembe for no reason?

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Where Mama Robotnik and co were, when big bad Valve harassed poor little Gembe for no reason?

You seem bitter.

 

[subversus]

This just proves my theory that no matter how benign the subject matter any thread on the internet will turn into a raging argument by page 3.

lol you're right.

 

[Melchiah]

You seem bitter.

Just pointing at the hypocrisy; when Valve or Microsoft do something like this, it's no big deal, but when Sony does...

 

[James Woods]

The only thing dumb about Valve's methods is that they seriously thought they could launch the game when they originally promised (which, as I recall, was September 2003 - three months after it was announced). Even without the leak throwing a monkey wrench in to all of this, it probably would've been delayed to sometime in 2004.

Max Payne 2.

 

[Melchiah]

Max Payne 2.

Alan Wake.

Too Human.

 

[Gravijah]

Just pointing at the hypocrisy; when Valve or Microsoft do something like this, it's no big deal, but when Sony does...

Uhm, probably different people. I don't support any of the 3 doing it.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Just pointing at the hypocrisy; when Valve or Microsoft do something like this, it's no big deal, but when Sony does...

Fair enough, it is a different situation though.

 

[James Woods]

Alan Wake.

Too Human.

Max Payne 2 was revealed the same day as Half Life 2 and came out three months later, as projected. Has nothing to do with HL2 really but it's something ingrained in my mind.

 

[Seraphinianus]

Was Remedy actually working on Max Payne 2 for a while though? Because Valve hadn't really started the game proper when they were saying 3 months. and Rockstar published games seem to have a very short reveal to launch time.


Before reading this and the Gamespot article, I hadn't realized how independent Valve actually is. Gave me hopes that they could pull a Radiohead by not saying shit about Episode 3 (or it could just be straight Half Life 3 at this point), then all of the sudden announce and release it within a few days.

 

[Melchiah]

Max Payne 2 was revealed the same day as Half Life 2 and came out three months later, as projected. Has nothing to do with HL2 really but it's something ingrained in my mind.

Ah, I misunderstood your post.

 

[sam27368]

I don't know what's better, the article or what this thread turned into. That minus was a real fucktard.

I'm from the UK, and no, I don't hate you America, in fact, I love you. But like every country in the world it's amazing some people are actually allowed out the house.

I know it's pretty common in the game industry, but it doesn't make it less stupid. Devoting a big chunk of the development process just to have something good to show at E3 is not as good thing in my eyes. What about just wait until they have something impressive to show which will also be in the final game?

And also, it's one thing to show content which will eventually be cut (they've got a good excuse that they didn't know better at the time), but pretending powerful AI is controlling things which are actually scripted is just an outright lie.

I agree to a point, before I did some work in games. The buildup to E3 is pretty good because it really pushes developers to get to grips with a lot of new tools and lays a lot of the foundation for the rest of the game.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Just pointing at the hypocrisy; when Valve or Microsoft do something like this, it's no big deal, but when Sony does...

Hacking a system owned by someone else = bad

Hacking a system you own personally = not bad

Not the same thing in the least and please stop pretending they are.

 

[Talladega Knight]

I think you'll find a lot of companies do this, especially when they're showing game footage to the press and nobody's at a PC actually controlling the thing. When you're on a deadline to create this amazing showcase of what your game is going to look like 3-9 months from now, there are certain things you have to fudge a little bit.

That being so scripted doesn't mean shit, because that's not a gameplay map. As I recall, it was a map created specially for the purposes of that video and contained nothing else but the little area for the Strider to demonstrate ducking under the walkway.

There is no grand exposé of Valve being frauds like some of you are implying. What you plan for a game and what you think is plausible to do in a game is rarely how the final product ends up. That is a fact that extends beyond Valve and covers just about every company that's ever had to design a game.

god this reminds me of halo 2's first showing at e3. what a load of bull that was. now THAT was slimy bullshit!!

 

[Melchiah]

Hacking a system owned by someone else = bad

Hacking a system you own personally = not bad

Not the same thing in the least and please stop pretending they are.

So, what's your opinion about Microsoft's mass ban-wave, that prevented a million hacked systems accessing XBL?

 

[OldJadedGamer]

So, what's your opinion about Microsoft's mass ban-wave, that prevented a million hacked systems accessing XBL?

I say it's great. Ban anyone with CFW from online networks on LIVE. Again, once you try to hack a system not owned by you, this is bad.

 

[Melchiah]

I say it's great. Ban anyone with CFW from online networks on LIVE. Again, once you try to hack a system not owned by you, this is bad.

So, if I understood right, there's also nothing wrong with Sony doing the same, and banning people and preventing their systems the access to PSN?

 

[Gravijah]

So, if I understood right, there's also nothing wrong with Sony doing the same, and banning people and preventing their systems the access to PSN?

Are there actually people that argue otherwise? I thought peoples issue with Sony was them taking people to court.

 

[hamchan]

So, if I understood right, there's also nothing wrong with Sony doing the same, and banning people and preventing their systems the access to PSN?

There's nothing wrong with Sony protecting PSN with bans. I don't think Mama Robotnik or anyone were against that?

 

[Melchiah]

Are there actually people that argue otherwise? I thought peoples issue with Sony was them taking people to court.

Unfortunately yes.
"It's MY machine. I've got the right to use it as I like, and be able to access PSN."

There's nothing wrong with Sony protecting PSN with bans. I don't think Mama Robotnik or anyone were against that?

To my understanding many people are against not being able to access PSN, while having OtherOS accompanied with CFW installed on their systems.

 

[StuBurns]

Hacking a system owned by someone else = bad

Hacking a system you own personally = not bad

Not the same thing in the least and please stop pretending they are.

That's how I see it morally.

"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins"

 

[OldJadedGamer]

To my understanding many people are against not being able to access PSN, while having OtherOS accompanied with CFW installed on their systems.

You don't understand which is why you made your original silly post. You don't see that the issue at hand is people wanting to do with their own property what they want to do. Period.

This has nothing to do with Valve and the HL2 kid as he hacked into computers owned by Valve, and computers on Valve property. Hence he got what he deserved.

 

[radioheadrule83]

I don't agree with what the guy did, but his apologies to Gabe Newell seem over generous -- I mean Gabe and Valve still profited hugely in spite of what he did - and do to this day... whilst his own life was pretty fucked over. If anything, his regret should stem from what he did to himself, not what he did to others.

 

[James Woods]

This thread is fucking stupid. Can't we discuss how awesome Max Payne 2 and HL2 is instead of bickering?

 

[Stallion Free]

I don't agree with what the guy did, but his apologies to Gabe Newell seem over generous -- I mean Gabe and Valve still profited hugely in spite of what he did - and do to this day... whilst his own life was pretty fucked over. If anything, his regret should stem from what he did to himself, not what he did to others.

No.

 

[StuBurns]

This thread is fucking stupid. Can't we discuss how awesome Max Payne 2 and HL2 is instead of bickering?

Max Payne 2 wasn't great.

Half-Life 2 on the other hand is the greatest action game of all time, and without the use of iron sights, that's quite an achievement.

 

[James Woods]

Max Payne 2 wasn't great.

Why?

 

[StuBurns]

Why?

I just don't think the Max Payne gameplay is very compelling and there's nothing particularly interesting in the greater world design for me. I should say though, although I finished the first one and at the time I liked it, I didn't finish the second one. I tend to think my own initial enjoyment from the game was probably as an extension of the Matrix cool effect, but I don't think the games hold up at all.

Saying that, I appreciate the frustration the fans have had over the MP3 premise, despite that I think there's almost no chance it won't be a better game than the others.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

WTF happened here. I feel bad for you guys that had to be a part of the last couple pages.

Back OT I remember thus whole thing going down and being so scared it was going to delay HL2 indefinitely.

 

[IrishNinja]

great article.

i like how we start with sony's defense force comparing this to geo, then hitler carnival of stupid, back to sony defense force again.
its like, gabe-fat jokes are (thankfully) off the table, so let's double down on the stupid in other areas.

 

[Suairyu]

I just don't think the Max Payne gameplay is very compelling and there's nothing particularly interesting in the greater world design for me. I should say though, although I finished the first one and at the time I liked it, I didn't finish the second one. I tend to think my own initial enjoyment from the game was probably as an extension of the Matrix cool effect, but I don't think the games hold up at all.

Saying that, I appreciate the frustration the fans have had over the MP3 premise, despite that I think there's almost no chance it won't be a better game than the others.

Max Payne gameplay isn't the greatest, but it's certainly fun. Having played both just a year ago, I certainly think they stand up as really good games. The aesthetic is what makes ultimately makes it, I suppose, so any flaws in the gameplay (the only flaw being it isn't upper-echelon, as far as I'm concerned) are easily looked over.

And it has got some of the best texture work ever. True story.

 

[AlimNassor]

Oh wow, he only got 2 years of probation, and look at how he changed his life. Good for him.

On that note I really love Valve and how Gabe seems like a good boss. The kind of boss that actually cares more about the well being of his workers than money. The fact he was more concerned about his workers just makes my heat warm itself up.

 

[Melchiah]

You don't understand which is why you made your original silly post. You don't see that the issue at hand is people wanting to do with their own property what they want to do. Period.

They can do what they want to with the system, but they can't access PSN if they have OtherOS and CFW installed. Why should they have the right to access it, when it wasn't possible on hacked Xbox?