NoblesseOblige
Banned
Read it and do what with it? If you're using it to make a point, then state what the point is you're trying to make.
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The Burqa debate - has the west got it wrong?
- Thread starter Machina
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Read it and do what with it? If you're using it to make a point, then state what the point is you're trying to make.
I don't think the west can have it wrong, when Muslims themselves cannot determine whether the veil is a religious symbol, a religious requirement, a religious expression, a cultural tradition or just a piece of cloth.
Then again, most Muslims I know do not consider the separation of men and women sexist.
Then again, most Muslims I know do not consider the separation of men and women sexist.
MisterFalcon
Member
The ultra radical side of religion has made a massive comeback in recent years thanks to the Internet. Instead of just dreaming about becoming a warrior for your god there is now the information how to do so and affordable travel available.
Kill Your Masters
Member
Superpowers: Bigotry and Mindreading
Probably because Western countries have their own set of standards and principals.
Why would you want the West to emulate those countries?
Dude... I am not saying only western women are forced to make themselves prettier, such pressures also exist for muslim women. What I am saying is that we can understand and be nuanced about cultural pressures when these pressures are present in our own culture. But the cultural pressures of another culture are often talked about in very black and white language, with little consideration for the actual people involved. Personally, I consider myself a leftist and a feminist but my opinions often differ widely from those of my muslim family and friends. I don't consider myself in any position to judge or decide on the choices of others. Do I believe Islam is very patriarchical? Yes I do. Do I believe that Islamic codes on dress are restrictive and misogynist? Yes I do. But that doesn't mean that I should decide for my family or friends what to do or what to wear. And it doesn't mean that I think their choices should be restricted by law. I believe freedom, which is for every individual heavily influenced by culture as I tried to make clear in my previous comment, is the most important value and the one that should bind us as a community. You might believe it justified to restrict the choices of women, even when they tell you they made those choices voluntarily, just because you have a thing against Islam but I don't. My personal feelings on subjects should never be the basis for legislation.
Understanding the reasoning for the confirmation of the ban. Instead of throwing out garbage macho phrases like "you have to be rather pathetic to be afraid of that".
I see women in niqab(mostly) or burqa literally every week where I live. 99% of those cases are either chechen familys where the husband and son walk next to them in t-shirts, shorts and sandals or families where the mother wears a chador and the young daughter has to wear a burqa. So yes, I have my doubts they are wearing that of free choice. Which isn't to say that there aren't opposite examples.
But of course it's bigotry. Throwing in the bigotry card is the easiest way to try to end a conversation after all.
That's the point, most people who visit those countries from the west adhere to the standards of that country, those that don't, and I have seen it with my own eyes, get a lot of grief.
I am sure if a woman wearing a burka was given as much grief on the street as my wife was for exposing her shoulders, it would be front page news.
Massive double standards.
Subpar Scrub
Banned
Probably wouldn't be afraid if he worked in a bank and someone with a balaclava walked in, lmao.
"Maybe it's cold out?"
If you're in public, you should have your face uncovered. It's a matter of security in my mind.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Where did I state I didn't understand the reasoning for the ban? I just disagree with the reasoning, and find it rather pathetic for an individual to be afraid of masks or facial covering in and of itself. If you find that to be 'macho', whatever that means, then that is your prerogative.
I'm sorry, when were we talking about banks? Last I checked the ban was in public. Continuing your trend of no contribution I see.
Subpar Scrub
Banned
We weren't, you just said you're not afraid of facial coverings and it would be pathetic to be. I'm just pointing out how weird that mentality is to me, considering that you didn't specify any types of facial coverings or locations in that statement.
I wouldn't feel comfortable with people wearing balaclavas around in public anyway. Just as I wouldn't feel comfortable if they had a hoodie/sunnies/bandana combo or a motorcycle helmet.
And I made a contribution on the last page lol. It's okay.
I can get more specific if you'd like.
I agree that context matters for how the wearing of the clothing itself is perceived. In SAE it's pretty much mandatory. In say... America, it's a choice (pressure from family/friends/religious leaders can alter the difficulty of the choice, but as far as the law is concerned, it's okay)
I disagree with this though.
domestic violence is already regulated by current law..
So you don't find anything oppressive in the sharia? Is this nothing more than a debate about public safety?
Kill Your Masters
Member
Yes but also massive difference in human rights treatment in both. I'd rather not compare any european country to the UAE, Saudis etc, feels like a massive downgrade.
I'm not sure that the comparison of Muslim citizens in the West and Western tourists in Islamic states is appropriate.
The West has universal rights that can be used to argue in favor of allowing religious/cultural clothing. Those Islamic theocracies/kingdoms you've mentioned do not grant it's people that luxury.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
That's not a "human right," that's just not being comfortable with anyone near you not having their faces covered.
It's fine and understandable to have that feeling but to try to elevate it like that is just goofy
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Maybe some people want to live in a country where they can practice a religion or express their culture while coexisting with those of another. Hell, as an Atheist I prefer living in a diverse environment rather than one with a bunch of other nonbelievers.
Also I believe I've heard this exact line spouted by bigots in regards to other things. But we'll let that slide for now.
Not well enough apperantly.
The sharia has no place in a western society. I don't know why you're coming after me. If you read the ruling one very important point they focused on as well is the notion of "living together". The Burqa is not some harmless traditional piece of clothing. It is a piece of clothing pushed by extremists. I can definitely understand that you might be uncomfortable, especcially as a women, if you have women in burqas next to you. It is a clothing that says "the other women that don't wear this are sluts" and "western society is degenerate". Of course that can make people understandibly uncomfortable and thus harm living together.
Subpar Scrub
Banned
Let's not, please.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I've never once in my life heard a woman interpret another woman wearing a burqa this way.
They move to a country so they can then isolate themselves from society and wear extreme clothing that symbolizes what I said above? How does that make any sense?
Then you need to dig deeper. I know firsthand of a friend's university colleague who was a "normal" girl, going out with friends etc, then met her new bf, now wears a hijab(except for work) which in itself is no problem, but she also comments on other girls how wearing jeans is haram. My friend thankfully always challenges her with "Ok, show me where it says that in koran" to which she deflects.
Also just an anecdote, but so is yours.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Are all people of Islamic faith in western society isolated? That's weird because at my last place I lived in the same complex as several Muslim family.
We are talking about muslim women wearing burqas.
I can understand not allowing clothing that covers the face in banks for example, considering the connotations. Also a bank is a private property where they can apply their own rules should they wish. what i take issue with is targeting and specifically calling out specific religious garments. and people should be able to wear what they want in public, I don't care if it makes you feel uneasy, get over yourself because banning clothing because it hides the face is a deep rabbit hole and it reminds me of calls to ban hoodies in the early 2000's which was equally stupid for the same reasons.
Middle Eastern here, I honestly think people are free to wear whatever they want. What countries like Saudi Arabia are doing is wrong and what France did is wrong. Enforcing such stupid dress codes is not going to bode well.
I honestly somewhat understand the security concerns with not showing one's face, but pretty sure there is a way around that.
I honestly somewhat understand the security concerns with not showing one's face, but pretty sure there is a way around that.
Audioboxer
Member
It is a ridiculous piece of oppressive and unpractical clothing tied to an ideology that treats women like fucking dirt.
However the way to go about even trying to influence even 10% of the women treated so badly isn't to enforce bans to try and drag them along. We also have to support freedom of religion if we are firm believers in freedom of speech.
However the way to go about even trying to influence even 10% of the women treated so badly isn't to enforce bans to try and drag them along. We also have to support freedom of religion if we are firm believers in freedom of speech.
Burkas and niqabs are not allowed on the Hajj.
Subpar Scrub
Banned
Without any form of restriction or guidelines?
I have often wondered about something and it is something that we don't really talk about. So I am all for choice and I think people should be allowed to wear whatever they want and do what they want and if that means wearing a burka or a hijab or shorts then that's their business. I do not believe that most women, atleast in the West, are forced into wearing one and they choose to do so (but I'll come back to this in a bit). My friend's older sister wears a hijab while his younger sister dresses in western clothes and her family is fine by both, the older sister herself says that she does it out of choice...but not religion.
You see this is where I start to wonder, isn't it so that the mindset that she chose to wear it for herself rather than religion....due to the religion itself telling her about modesty? If she wasnt born into a Muslim family she would never have chosen to wear a hijab. My other female friends who are atheists but come from a Muslim family tell me that someone like my friend's older sister would believe that she wears it out of choice because that's what she has conditioned herself into believing.
It's difficult to explain, but I guess what I am saying is that yes, no one likes being told what they should or shouldn't wear. But isn't the entire reason why they choose to wear, something that is generally considered to be a symbol of oppression in the west, because they were told so directly or indirectly in the first place?
You see this is where I start to wonder, isn't it so that the mindset that she chose to wear it for herself rather than religion....due to the religion itself telling her about modesty? If she wasnt born into a Muslim family she would never have chosen to wear a hijab. My other female friends who are atheists but come from a Muslim family tell me that someone like my friend's older sister would believe that she wears it out of choice because that's what she has conditioned herself into believing.
It's difficult to explain, but I guess what I am saying is that yes, no one likes being told what they should or shouldn't wear. But isn't the entire reason why they choose to wear, something that is generally considered to be a symbol of oppression in the west, because they were told so directly or indirectly in the first place?
Audioboxer
Member
I believe in places where CCTV plays a large role such as high security places like banks face coverings should be prohibited. Public spaces though? Pretty much wear what you want, within the rules of no indecent exposure (flapping dicks) and sure if someone is acting weird expect the police to come along and possibly question them. Especially if they have all their visual identity covered.
Pretty much just as things are. Although I'm not too sure how banks largely respond to Islamic face coverings versus say a ballaclava or a hoody/hat covering.
I can totally see where you're coming from and to a large extent I empathize and share your ideals. But we should probably stop and scrutinize our motives. You come from a place of strong patriarchy and extoll the virtues of free choice. I come from a place of free choice and extoll the danger of strong patriarchy.
You have a personal acquiantance willingly donning a niqab, and think, okay this is simply the other side of my will to free choice, but in the end free choice is better than my starting point which is being told what to wear. I have a personal acquiantance who is shocked that her daughters are getting bullied into wearing a hijab even before menstrual age even though she herself comes from a tradition of being free what to wear, and think, okay this has a strong negative effect on the current freedom in our society. We need to break this trend. It's about where you start and where you think it's heading. Though, I'm a social liberal so I believe some laws can be put into place to maintain the optimal freedom in our society. I don't know where you stand.
In Europe it certainly is a huge problem.
Some females wear it voluntarily. GAF needs to get away from the black and white thinking.
Don't confuse Hijabs with Burqas. These are different things. See pic above.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Well Europe seems to have a larger issues to deal with then. They give hell to the Romani people, and now Muslim. Guess it's that culture shock after being 90% white for so long.
Burkinis and Burqas are beyond the pale but not hijabs.
There has got to be a very interesting mental gymnastics routine inside there.
You continue to be a treasure trove in this thread.
You have so absolutely zero clue about the integration issue it really hurts. "Giving hell to them" - give me a fucking break. 250+ people here were slaughtered by radical islamists in the last 2 years alone. Of course there is racism, I witness that too often. Same as there are areas where you can't go as a non-foreigner - or go try a trip through the banlieus. Society is shit. Yet Integration is in most cases a two-sided effort and both sides are lacking, that said it is simply not a secret that problems are biggest with muslim immigrants - often because they come from a refugee background(and we know many of afghan refugees are illiterate and never worked before) or other low-society background(many of the turkish workers form the 70ies) whereas meanwhile the persian intellectuals that escaped in the 80s are well integrated. Your simplifying, biased-without-facts post is frankly offending. And I'm not someone who gives into the "I'm offended now" bag easily.
Audioboxer
Member
Are you being purposely obtuse? Full on nudity in public areas is already classed as indecent exposure in most western countries.
Do whatever the fuck you want but don't blame me if parents complain kids can see your dick and you get asked by the police to coverup or change attire.
See through clothing? YMMV. I'd probably want to ask what is wrong with your fashion sense if you want to wear something transparent to show off your dick in public.
Subpar Scrub
Banned
I don't think you should be showing your genitals in public either, tbh. Outside of like, a nudist beach.
Europe(or at least some countries) seem to have a unique problem of isolating Muslims more into the second generation. Which is reflected in opinion polls of feelings of treatment from new immigrants to second generation sons and daughters. Where negative feelings and resentment seems to grow instead of recede.
If the argument for bans are related to better integration and improving Muslim lives, as many are arguing, I think the onus comes down to them showing the efficacy of the their proposals or at least presenting a stronger case then I have seen put forward so far.
Agree. Therefore i think ECHR just wahsed their hands by focusing on the safety concerns and stating that articles 8 and 9 were not violated.
In public? Yes absolutely. I should be able to walk around in a bloody gas mask or balaclava if I want to. I mean yeah that may draw suspicion and the authorities are within their right to ask me a couple of questions about my odd getup, but it shouldn't be illegal.
Private property such as banks? its up to the owner.
The same arguments are being used though "it obscures their face".
This is a question for every choice anyone makes. Not just controversial ones.
I don't think this "victim culture" thing is really helpful here. Other groups are well integrated.
The issues are more related to people from Muslim countries with a low education. The seemingly transfer a very traditional picture of gender roles and have a very patriarchal family model. That's how incidents such as in Cologne during New Year's can be explained. At the same time, police considers parts of European cities as "no-go" areas already where Arab clans "rule". The people do not accept the state and laugh about German police/courts, who do not really interfere or give punishment; they are seen as "soft" and "weak".
For obvious reasons, such ideas are not really compatible with the values we more or less share in Western societies. Blaming Europe, and referring to skin colour, is rather ridiculous but rather goes on to show that you haven't really read upon this.
(There are obviously Muslims who try to integrate into our societies or successfully did. I am not talking about those, because I know they also exist. But ignoring large issues at hand or seeking blame in European societies will not solve these issues.)
Hypnotoad
Member
You are not from Europe, are you? Most Muslim immigrants in (Northern) Europe are not any less white than southern Europeans, yet unlike them, and having arrived during the same time period as migrant workers, have integrated far worse, despite continuous efforts to put them on equal footing. East and South East Asians are farther removed than MENA immigrants from the majority in their "nonwhiteness", yet they have proven to be far better at adopting western lifestyles and intermixing with local communities. In the second and third generation, they have pretty much assimilated, with a large number of cross-cultural marriages.
This is quite a ridiculous standard to set for someone to be considered "progressive" while I agree in theory that people should be able to walk around with their danglies jiggling about. not agreeing with that doesn't make someone "pretending to be progressive"
How do you square fathers and mothers coming over and having more favorable views of their host country and their acceptance and then their sons and daughters feeling less so?
If this were a direct relationship between family values being passed down due to isolationism then we would expect to see little or no shifts right? Yet we see the newer generation feel even less welcome and more isolated. More prone to radical ideas and more extreme views then their parents.
I don't think you can hand wave away the role their society is playing in shaping them. Most Muslim immigrants in France come from former colonist countries. That too can't be ignored. There is built up resentment and prejudice at work that doesn't affect other immigrant groups.
Not to mention the issue of assimilation in America vs Europe and why one has been more successful and the other much less so. Something entire academic papers are being written on. I don't think anyone can say they have the answers - which is in part why I am extremely skeptical of arguments to ban religious clothing in the name of improving integration and lives of those in that culture - but what I can say is that to rule out any one influencer seems reckless and premature.
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