Well http://www.*****************/news/a...aws-Islamic-garb-buildings-SECURITY-RISK.html
It is from d a i l y m a i l
It is from d a i l y m a i l
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
The Burqa debate - has the west got it wrong?
- Thread starter Machina
- Start date
- Status
CoffeeJanitor
Member
You have to give women the choice, even if it's not truly a choice because of societal conditions.
Have to let people and cultures trudge forward without being forced.
Have to let people and cultures trudge forward without being forced.
gutter_trash
Banned
it's contrasty when I see a couple where the husband is dressed casually with summer shorts, t-shirt, flip-flops but his wife has her neck, sleeves and legs fully covered on a sweltering humid hot North-East summer day
the whole "choice" thing is skewed by cultural pressure
Subpar Spatula
Banned
How do you empower someone who, when at home, isn't empowered? It's a difficult thing because you can let everyone be free but then you got, "not in my house" mentality which is 100% off-limits for people.
If anything, all this does is bring more awareness to how awful covering women is and hopefully it slowly erodes dumb ideas away.
Correct. But we have to watch out what these policies are. Allowing burqas again in France wouldn't integrate them better into society, it would give the ideological masterminds behind this thing(ie salafists) a win.
based on what evidence?
And I also believe one interesting question to discuss is this: should certain immigrants/minorities be targeted more with accomodating policies than others? And why? As someone else mentioned, other minority groups managed to integrate just fine. Wouldn't that rather speak for the error lying in the one specific group that causes problems rather than the bad majority society not doing enough? Like if (simplified now) vietnamese, philippino, chinese, indians, eastern european, other centreal europeans all manage to integrate just fine (eventually), and only muslim communities cause huge integration problems in parts - why is the first thought to automatically assume the majority-society must've done something wrong when it worked out with all the others? Not that only one or the other is to blame, but it seems incredibly naive to me to act like this has nothing to do with islam and/or the values/views from that culture when that is the main differentiator.
replace Muslim with black people and read that back to yourself. What you are saying is vaerbatim the shit you hear on conservative forums arguing for why black people remain impoverished and disadvantaged in America and why things like bans on sagging clothes and do-rags are justified. It's an attempt to poison the well and put the blame entiriely on the minority and refuse to even entertain the idea that the society itself may be playing a role.
The thing is, that goes completely against any life experience I or anyone else I know has. You can not seriously tell me the 13 year old walking around in a burqa with her mother chose to wear this. You can not tell me the chechen family as a whole is so religious that they were sandals and shorts while the mother is completely veiled. I would agree with you if we were talking only about hijabs but we are still talking about this:
So now you are appealing to anecdotal evidence.
Again, based on you in the other thread: Burkini and burqa are no goes, hijab is a-ok! Your logic is so ridiculously arbitrary that your feelings really are the only rationale I can come up with for your bizarre logic
Such clothing is only as much of a choice as someone speaking their mother tongue. There's no choice in conforming to what you've been raised to believe is your place in the world.
And before some smarty pants tries to come up with some bullshit about western clothing not being a choice, don't bother. One of them says "men are brutes and women are whores" and the the other doesn't.
And before some smarty pants tries to come up with some bullshit about western clothing not being a choice, don't bother. One of them says "men are brutes and women are whores" and the the other doesn't.
What if those communities aren't interested in treating each other and those outside their own as equals? Would you still respect that? What if they promote homophobia and misogyny? Isn't it your duty as a civilized society to protect sexual minorities and women from oppression as well? What if the community you're trying to integrate is fundamentally incompatible?
I don't think we have a good answer to these questions. I come from a country where people are murdered for their sexual orientations, rape victims are forced to marry their abusers, and a scary amount of the population supports that. I don't think that is compatible with western society, or at least the ideals of western society.
Super_Cobra
Member
I love seeing those pics of those women burning those niqabs. They look so happy and liberated.
You don't want people to point out the obvious flaw in the arbitrarily banning of clothing if it can be argued to enforce a patriarchy some of the time?
Of course you would, otherwise you might have to think beyond this empirically unfounded policy.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I would never say anything dickish to a woman wearing them, but I do disapprove of that and similar coverings and question whether it's very often really worn by choice, especially given the role of women in those cultures... So yes I strongly disapprove and suspect a father or mother is often behind a young woman in a Western country wearing them.
Yup!
Well, it's right that Erdogan is a dictator, but Turkey has a long secular tradition that predates him (and his pandering to Islamists to overturn some of that progress) by almost a hundred years. That's what makes the first image there possible. In most of that part of the world that first image simply wouldn't happen so it pretty much lacks any point. As those women wouldn't have that choice in the vast majority of the Muslim world, the second image which is enforcing beach dress as it has come to be understood in the Western world does not come across as that big a deal.
If you're going to live in the Western world...well... When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
Yup!
Well, it's right that Erdogan is a dictator, but Turkey has a long secular tradition that predates him (and his pandering to Islamists to overturn some of that progress) by almost a hundred years. That's what makes the first image there possible. In most of that part of the world that first image simply wouldn't happen so it pretty much lacks any point. As those women wouldn't have that choice in the vast majority of the Muslim world, the second image which is enforcing beach dress as it has come to be understood in the Western world does not come across as that big a deal.
If you're going to live in the Western world...well... When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
eot
Banned
This is also Turkey
And this is Norway?
I'm not sure a ban does any good, but we can't tolerate everything simply because it's culture or religion. An open and tolerant society only works when people respect those values, and it is vulnerable against attacks from those who don't.
It sounds like you're trying so hard to make your posts sound like some irrefutable logical proof that you're completely forgetting to make any sense.
Are you sure you know what a Burqa is? It's like saying that it's completely arbitrary to differentiate between cigarettes and crack cocaine.
BarringGaffner
Member
beautiful images OP.
In these photos are girls/women used to having that sliver of freedom of showing their face.
could they just as easily choose to remove the rest of their veil? Of course not, they would be divorced from their family, threatened, or worse. This is sadly true even in the west.
In these photos are girls/women used to having that sliver of freedom of showing their face.
could they just as easily choose to remove the rest of their veil? Of course not, they would be divorced from their family, threatened, or worse. This is sadly true even in the west.
That's the thing, I have plenty of personal disagreements with all manner of behaviors and goings on in society. About how I think certain "choices" are often not choices but instead the result of direct or indirect pressrues on those of lesser power in society to conform to the ideals of those at the top of imperfect power structures, Thats continual adherence only reinforces those dynamics of power and really often hurts those conforming to it in the position of less power.
But then to move from pointing that out to reaching for the authoritarian hammer to restrict something that can be argued to represent that as a means of forcing integration and in the name of being effective at undoing that injustice is going to need a lot more then just assumption and feelings to justify it.
Honestly it shouldn't be that hard to recognize why deriving policy solely on the assumption of it reinforcing imperfect dynamics of power can become extremely problematic for a western society.
Well, it can. Sometimes it also creates a net benefit for society, not everything is black or white. Tons of things are regulated because they tend to create/reinforce undesirable power dynamics. In France for example we have a very popular law against religious sects, we feel it is necessary to protect vulnerable people.
I don't think we can. I know plenty of women who wear a niqab and do so by their own will
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Like they actually have a choice in the matter....especially growing up.
Milksheikhs
Member
Even if women aren't wearing niqab by choice. I don't think banning it is the right option. Because then their husbands just won't let them in public period. It further alienates Muslim women from society which then helps create more extremism. And also some women do wear it by choice and you're stepping on their freedom to expression. So any way you look at it..banning is not effective solution.
So then we are turning this into a question of efficacy. So what evidence do you have toward the effectiveness of this policy to address those issues? And why is this particular issue so grave, so beyond the pale, that it requires legislative restrictions with the force of fines or prosecution? Because freedom of expression/speech is one of those western values that are held in pretty high regard, so it's restriction should similarity require a very high bar.
excelsiorlef
Member
What kinda of argument is this?
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
It's impossible to find out what percent of Muslim women actually wear it by choice and what percent merely due so due to pressure. In addition, they were acclimated to wearing it in their youth, almost certainly not of their own volition so it's really a moot point.
Additionally, the freedom of expression is not absolute.
BarringGaffner
Member
and just out of curiosity, what would happen to them if they chose to remove their Niqab/Hijab, or go further and became apostates?
old manatee
Banned
I've secretly always wanted to wear a burqa since I first saw one. I'm super awkward and self-conscious, and I have horrible fashion sense and body language. I would love to just move through the world anonymously like that. A burqa with headphones, sunglasses, and sneakers would be my dream outfit.
A shit one that wasn't even worth a response.
BarringGaffner
Member
This 100%. Banning is stupid.
I just don't think we should kid ourselves that women do it by choice in a culture/religion where they could lose so much if they chose not to.
absolutely noting. her husband would actually prefer it if she doesn't wear a niqab.
Milksheikhs
Member
Either way though, as I said you're pushing Muslim women further away from the society they live in and further alienating them. You think that if the husband is awful enough to force them to wear niqab in public that suddenly there's a law saying they can't..he's just gonna go "okay, hmm seems fair and right". No. He's going to force them to stay indoors and away from the public. I came from a relationship where I was forced to wear hijab..I know firsthand how this shit works.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Frankly, that man shouldn't be allowed in the Western world, he's actively disregarding the local culture's cherished values and traditional dress. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
1st Course
Member
Note I am not talking about hijabs, just the burqa and niqab.
Totally different things I am not even getting into.
Thank you. People should understand that Hijab and Niqab are completely different things.
Also worth noting that vast vast majority of Muslims don't believe Niqab is required. It's really only a thing in Saudi Arabia and regions that have been influenced by Salafism/Wahhabism (basically only extremists believe Niqab is required).
As someone who used to live in moderate Islam countries, I know that for the woman in the society, even those who chose to wear it do so because of how the Imams and religious leaders tell them that women should take better care of themselves in covering up. So girls who used to not even wear Hijab ended up wearing one by the time they get to HS or Uni.
Personally, I find it grossly unfair that the women in the religion had to be all covered while the men are allowed to display their gross fat belly hanging out in the open. Women's rights/agency along with the rights of LGBT weren't exactly high in that country to begin with but the religion made it all the worse.
Personally, I find it grossly unfair that the women in the religion had to be all covered while the men are allowed to display their gross fat belly hanging out in the open. Women's rights/agency along with the rights of LGBT weren't exactly high in that country to begin with but the religion made it all the worse.
But what are you disapproving of? A woman deciding to wear something out of her own volition? Here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyTGY7wmIjo is an interview with a woman who decided on her own to wear a niqab. How can you disaprove of her entirely indivdual decision without belittling her intelligence. Why is a woman removing the niqab or burqa forced on her beautiful to you but the woman freely deciding to wear one distressing? Do you enjoy judging women's choices?
And about living in the West... the thing I love about the West, the thing that makes the West so attractive relative to the rest of the world, is the freedom it so rightly values. Using your religious freedom and freedom of expression to pursue your own individual happiness is doing as the Romans do. I can be an atheist here, who drinks and does everything Allah has forbidden. On the other hand, I have family members who live very different, pious lives. The beauty of the West is that here both are possible. We should do well to protect those values against the people actually threatening them, not salafist muslims or orthodox jews or conservative christians (well in the US the powerful christian right is kinda dangerous) but populists that think Western values are somehow about a language or a way of dress or a skin colour instead of universal human rights.
Christopher
BDE (Big Dad Energy)
Why don't men wear them?
You guys keep pushing back on the ban only gives fuel to let the suppression continue on...is it really a choice of your born into thinking this is what is right and this is what is wrong?
You guys keep pushing back on the ban only gives fuel to let the suppression continue on...is it really a choice of your born into thinking this is what is right and this is what is wrong?
This is a perplexing statement. Isn't one of the great cornerstones of western society the ability to freely express your dissent and the freedom to not have to adhere to rigid enforcement of customs like traditional dress? The embracing of tolerance to differences?
I absolutely agree a person that is practicing Wahhabism is outside of the spectrum of classic western values in most regards, but this shit sounds like Trumpian(not a real word but could be lol) notions of enforcing purity testing before coming to a western country. Or worse, to its already established citizens. I mean otherwise, how does one enforce such a thing?
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Whoa now, gonna have to stop you right there, that's not how the Romans did it.
http://www.roman-empire.net/religion/religion.html
The man she was in a relationship wouldn't let that poster outside without a burqa or similar covering. That man can fuck off into space, essentially, and shouldn't be in the Western world. That man has no tolerance for my values, so I refuse to have any for his. I admit that my views might be a bit much and I can understand that, but in regards to a fellow like that I really don't think that I made a remotely closed-minded statement there, he did so himself.
BarringGaffner
Member
as already posted... a ban could mean that women that have no choice would be forced to stay home.
It unfortunately is a pretty shitty situation either way.
These debates seem to always fail to find a proper balance when distinguishing between Muslims in non-Muslim countries and Muslims in Muslim countries. The latter of which is often ignored. Makes sense I guess since the posters are talking about their own country, but we are also talking about a pretty small minority, while in other countries in terms of numbers a majority is. Both should be discussed and protected, but not only do you not see it (which makes sense in a Trump world), but often when the plight of Muslims around the world is brought up claims that you can't talk about other peoples cultures or sometimes even racism are levied. I don't know about other people, but my own criticisms of my countries intolerance fill my head pretty much every day. Feels self centered to ignore any others.
Beautiful. You continue to make incredibly eloquent points in this thread.
BarringGaffner
Member
and her family? friends? I was also asking about the hijab.
if she actually had no consequences for choosing not to wear any religious garb, or choosing to leave Islam, then she is pretty lucky.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
This!
The context can also differ inside a country.
I mean just look at the numbers of muslim women who get harassed on one hand cause they DO wear it and on the other hand if the DON'T.
Love how threads like this people never try and ask the people wearing the damn thing about how THEY feel.
But I'm not really suprised since the people arguing for for Muslim womens rights never make an effort to support them in any other context then using their oppression as a bat.
I mean, we have PLENTY of Swedish womens rights groups that help with these exact issues, yet people like the EUGAF-Antislam defense force NEVER speak about those.
Also LOL at the people who complain about lack of integration but NEVER utter a word regarding the systemic racism POC face.
The drawback to open western societies is that it is going to always be nearly impossible to directly address things like individual relationship power dynamics that you speak of. Where a person is not directly breaking any laws but their power dynamic, coercion and manipulation on a personal level is oppressing someone else in minor or major ways...However I am not sure any society has been able to directly address this and that is in part the problem with your demand.
It's an ugly hard truth. Lots of woman and minorities, not just Muslim woman, experience life in a way that is oppressive. It would be nice if we had a magic wand that could instantaneously remove those type of extreme deviants from society that perpetuate this issue but that is not possible because unfortunately magic does not exist lol.
So naturally the question then becomes, how do you address your grievence in the real world? And from where I am standing the only way to accomplish that seems to be an ugly system that corrupts and devalues the very system you are claiming to protect. I mean walk me through how you throw out people like that guy? For fun, lets even assume he is a naturalized citizen?
her family wasn't down at first with her wearing a niqab though.
most muslim girls i know don't wear head covering.
Milksheikhs
Member
He is a born us citzen. So, it would be illegal to just throw him out. Do I think he was abusive and a shit head, absolutely. Do I think he should be thrown out or not allowed in a democracy, no. I think a lot of times in these discussions you have people who aren't Muslim trying to force their solutions on to Muslim women in hopes to liberate them when actually you're doing more harm to us.
If you want to be an advocate for Muslim women;
1. Listen.
2. Realize that we are the experts on our experiences as Muslim women.
3. Become a support role for us. Do not speak for us.
And finally, realize that it isn't just a black and white situation. And that if there is a solution to come about to this problem..it needs to be from us. We need to make a change from the inside. And we do value your support in our struggle for liberation from patriarchal bullshit.
Thoughtful post.
I'll just add, I think what has concerned me most in this thread has been just what you said, the notion they are doing what's right for Muslim woman while simotanesouly disregarding what Muslims are saying - even when they have one right in this thread talking to them - all while having little to no regard toward the efficacy of their proposed policy.
There seems to be a really quick knee jerk reaction to reach into the toolbox of authoritarian restrictions in the name of protecting ideals without even fully diagnosing the problem or the efficacy of the tool being promoted to fix it. Furthermore that lack of rounded engagement on matters of intrusive, restrictive policy like this does a disservice to those they are claiming to genuinely want to help. Frankly I would go so far as to say such sentiments and approaches to issues can be poisonous to the very western ideals they are claiming to be standing for.
Necromanti
Member
Why in the world would a woman be allowed to leave the household uncovered if she was usually made to wear a burqa? She would just not be allowed to leave the house instead.
Also, this is the responsible approach to pursuing sustainable, ethical change:
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I wish the closet racists and helicopter racists in this thread would stop using the word "integration", since they don't really want them to integrate.
Basically, you have two different types of people in this thread: People who I like to call "helicopter racists", who honestly believe that a Muslim woman can't possibly be wearing a burka, niqab, or even a simple hijab, because they want to. Simply due to the fact that the most unstable region in the entire world forces women to wear these garments by law, Muslims all over the world must be forced to wear it by proxy. The irony lost in these folks is that they want to support feminism and freedom... by banning garments they think are unsuitable for women to wear.
The other kind of folks in this thread are the good ol' closet racists who are always concern trolling and using coded euphemisms. They say they want Muslims to be forced to "integrate" with society. I have a newsflash for these particular folks: once you move into a place, and you know... live your life and interact with others, you've already integrated. Hell, in France's case, you have Muslims that are native to the country that are being told to "integrate" when they've already integrated... they were fucking born there.
No, what these folks really want is assimilation, and not just basic assimilation by the strictest definition of the term. They want Muslim women, and Muslims in general, to do what my ancestors did during the slave trade: To ignore, remove, and/or systematically destroy all aspects of their original culture to the point of either embracing values not native to their own heritage, or having to create new ones from scratch. And this isn't so Muslims can have an easier time interacting with others of different backgrounds... until White people get over themselves, this will always be a problem in Western society. No, they want Muslims to assimilate to ease their own discomfort with people different than them. Because for some reason, Whites in the West interpet folks of different backgrounds, races, and/or cultures as a threat to their own. And they are the only group of people that actively have this problem with the "others" of their countries.
Basically, you have two different types of people in this thread: People who I like to call "helicopter racists", who honestly believe that a Muslim woman can't possibly be wearing a burka, niqab, or even a simple hijab, because they want to. Simply due to the fact that the most unstable region in the entire world forces women to wear these garments by law, Muslims all over the world must be forced to wear it by proxy. The irony lost in these folks is that they want to support feminism and freedom... by banning garments they think are unsuitable for women to wear.
The other kind of folks in this thread are the good ol' closet racists who are always concern trolling and using coded euphemisms. They say they want Muslims to be forced to "integrate" with society. I have a newsflash for these particular folks: once you move into a place, and you know... live your life and interact with others, you've already integrated. Hell, in France's case, you have Muslims that are native to the country that are being told to "integrate" when they've already integrated... they were fucking born there.
No, what these folks really want is assimilation, and not just basic assimilation by the strictest definition of the term. They want Muslim women, and Muslims in general, to do what my ancestors did during the slave trade: To ignore, remove, and/or systematically destroy all aspects of their original culture to the point of either embracing values not native to their own heritage, or having to create new ones from scratch. And this isn't so Muslims can have an easier time interacting with others of different backgrounds... until White people get over themselves, this will always be a problem in Western society. No, they want Muslims to assimilate to ease their own discomfort with people different than them. Because for some reason, Whites in the West interpet folks of different backgrounds, races, and/or cultures as a threat to their own. And they are the only group of people that actively have this problem with the "others" of their countries.
TheBlackMarvel
Member
- Status
Similar threads
- Poll