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[Team Andromeda]

That's exactly the bullshit logik I was thinking about.
"Both are Notorious for long hours" yes that is true. Is that good though? NO.
We shouldn't look at something and say "It's always been that way, why change?" we should ask ourself "is it really any good?"

Saying "they are known for it" is not changing anything.
I'm not talking about occasional "overtime", I'm talking about planned, expected and horrific overworking. If you support that because "those jobs are notorious" then you should re-evaluate your moral compas.

Also, what the fuck with this crap about "the device you use to type this was made in china". So I am not allowed to complain and fight against unfair working conditions in those countries?
So if I ever bought a car, I'm not allowed to question the world pollution made by cars? Sometimes the depths of human ignorance amaze me.

You need to learn that saying working long hours happens in a profession doesn't meant you actually support or like it . There are many jobs that usually means working long hours be that a security guard, Butcher, hotel staff a journalist in fleet street, games develop Ect.

And so you call developers out ? but have no issues with your lovely consoles, phones and endless tech made in China . A country with diabolical human rights and where workers are asked to work long hours for crap pay, so you can have your cheap electrical goods . Spare us, your moral compass....

 

[mitch1971]

Dude is just pissed that he can't eat the game.

CD will stand for Cardiac Death if he's not careful.

 

[CuNi]

You need to learn that saying working long hours happens in a profession doesn't meant you actually support or like it . There are many jobs that usually means working long hours be that a security guard, Butcher, hotel staff a journalist in fleet street, games develop Ect.

And so you call developers out ? but have no issues with your lovely consoles, phones and endless tech made in China . A country with diabolical human rights and where workers are asked to work long hours for crap pay, so you can have your cheap electrical goods . Spare us, your moral compass....

Yes, there are many jobs with long hours that shouldn't bee.
I do have issues with working conditions in china, India and many other exploited countries. Does that mean I must boycott the products?
No. I can boycott the working conditions and support local businesses or companies that vow to uphold some sense of moral by not exploiting children or other people.
I can support groups who try to establish laws prohibiting said exploiting and I can support organisations making sure those rules are uphold.

We're on a gaming forum, ofc I call game devs out. This is not a place to call out mine workers, cotton/cocoa farmers etc. pp.
It's quite sad to see humans actively defend unhealthy and exploiting working conditions by shouting "but muh freedom!".
Like I said, I am happy to live in a country where at least work exploits are regulated by the state and no one has to endure such torment.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Does that mean I must boycott

Yes, if you want change . But that's the trouble with you WOKE keyboard warrior's... talk a good game , but that's all it is , just talk!! Since this is a gaming forum most should know game developers are asked at times to work long hours that's why SEGA, Nintendo have showers in their studios as some times the staff don't even go home and sleep at work .

it doesn't make it right but it's a issues of the industry since games development isn't a routine job all the time . More of a issue for me is when staff who are asked to work long hours at the end of a games development aren't paid double time for overtime or don't get un sociable hours rates or bonus pay for working way past their normal hours ...

 

[Ulysses 31]

Jim has another take!



Bonus TDS at the beginning.

 

[UncleMeat]

Jim has another take!



Bonus TDS at the beginning.

Ya just delay it for 3 years, why not? It's not like resources are finite or anything...

 

[Eric187]

Maybe you can hire them all to work for you Jim? Maybe you should just keep that fat trap shut.

 

[Clear]

Yes Jim. Now tell us how fondly you are regarded by the rank and file members of the development community you are so bravely defending.

Please, show up at GDC and rally the downtrodden masses you champion. That would surely be something to see.

 

[teezzy]

The 'PR' stands for 'Profoundly Rotund'

 

[EDMIX]

Jim has another take!



Bonus TDS at the beginning.

He makes some solid ass points.

Suddenly people have no issue with MTX, no issue with how developers are treated and many more all because its happening to a team they like?

If this was EA, Ubisoft etc you would have multiple pages of threads going on and on taking about it, suddenly CDPR does it and MTX is good now. Even if I like a publisher, developer etc, I leave that personal like out of the conversation if I feel indeed the company did wrong. Doesn't mean I'll boycott the game, doesn't mean I'll avoid the publisher, simply that the community needs to be honest about theses issues.

Its why I was so vocal about those issues in Red Dead Redemption 2, I like the series and team enough to want to see those corrections, changes, adjustments etc so we don't get fucked over with the sequel. Me buying it day 1 doesn't mean shit to me, being a fan of it doesn't mean I'll fucking lie to myself about its actually issues. I didn't for Witcher 3, I didn't for Red Dead 2, I won't for Cyberpunk 2077.

I never thought I'd see the day where gamers are fucking defending MTX, a game with 4 fucking release dates in 2020 and we are still pretending zero development issues are happening, the team continuously makes one statement and then does the opposite and then apologizes, walks back statement etc. So I'm happy that many are actually seeing this as I've been saying this for YEARS about this team.

I knew something was just odd that they confirmed Witcher 3 was downgraded the day AFTER it was released, this is what made me deeply question the ethics of this developer as I'm not mad about the downgrade, I'm mad that the developer decided to omit this information to fans while taking their money and only revealed this after the fact as if they didn't know about the state of their game. This choice is what made me really question what was going on as this isn't a mistake. This is a choice to omit information. I believe they like the idea of being the "good guys", they simply don't like the idea of following thru on those actions and after a few apologizes, reversals, back peddles etc that starts to get old as fuck and you start to wonder if this team is just doing this on purpose.

So I'll side with Jim on this. I don't know if most on a here even truly care about those subjects, or only claim to care about them when publishers they hate do it.

Keep that same energy.

 

[Clear]

He makes some solid ass points.

Suddenly people have no issue with MTX, no issue with how developers are treated and many more all because its happening to a team they like?

If this was EA, Ubisoft etc you would have multiple pages of threads going on and on taking about it, suddenly CDPR does it and MTX is good now. Even if I like a publisher, developer etc, I leave that personal like out of the conversation if I feel indeed the company did wrong. Doesn't mean I'll boycott the game, doesn't mean I'll avoid the publisher, simply that the community needs to be honest about theses issues.

Its why I was so vocal about those issues in Red Dead Redemption 2, I like the series and team enough to want to see those corrections, changes, adjustments etc so we don't get fucked over with the sequel. Me buying it day 1 doesn't mean shit to me, being a fan of it doesn't mean I'll fucking lie to myself about its actually issues. I didn't for Witcher 3, I didn't for Red Dead 2, I won't for Cyberpunk 2077.

I never thought I'd see the day where gamers are fucking defending MTX, a game with 4 fucking release dates in 2020 and we are still pretending zero development issues are happening, the team continuously makes one statement and then does the opposite and then apologizes, walks back statement etc. So I'm happy that many are actually seeing this as I've been saying this for YEARS about this team.

I knew something was just odd that they confirmed Witcher 3 was downgraded the day AFTER it was released, this is what made me deeply question the ethics of this developer as I'm not mad about the downgrade, I'm mad that the developer decided to omit this information to fans while taking their money and only revealed this after the fact as if they didn't know about the state of their game. This choice is what made me really question what was going on as this isn't a mistake. This is a choice to omit information. I believe they like the idea of being the "good guys", they simply don't like the idea of following thru on those actions and after a few apologizes, reversals, back peddles etc that starts to get old as fuck and you start to wonder if this team is just doing this on purpose.

So I'll side with Jim on this. I don't know if most on a here even truly care about those subjects, or only claim to care about them when publishers they hate do it.

Keep that same energy.

Serious question: Would you consider it fair if games were priced according to how many man-hours were sunk into their creation?

Because if not, you ought to make peace with the idea that devs/pubs supplementing their income with MTX can in fact sometimes be justified as a fair recompense for labor.

 

[EDMIX]

Serious question: Would you consider it fair if games were priced according to how many man-hours were sunk into their creation?

Because if not, you ought to make peace with the idea that devs/pubs supplementing their income with MTX can in fact sometimes be justified as a fair recompense for labor.

Not really the point. The issue is the comments made about this practice by the publisher.

Leaving the "greed to others"?

How come their fucking statement wasn't simply "make peace with the idea that devs/pubs supplementing their income with MTX can in fact be justified as a fair recompense for labor"? So to put it simply, keep that same energy with EA, Ubisoft, Activision etc.

 

[Clear]

Not really the point. The issue is the comments made about this practice by the publisher.

Leaving the "greed to others"?

How come their fucking statement wasn't simply "make peace with the idea that devs/pubs supplementing their income with MTX can in fact be justified as a fair recompense for labor"? So to put it simply, keep that same energy with EA, Ubisoft, Activision etc.

Note I edited sometimes in as a qualifier (between the time you quoted me ironically and posting your reply) so as to avoid straw-man counterpoints using worst-case abusers of the practice. Because the point is, if the product contains sufficient content of sufficient quality in its base form to justify the purchase price, how are MTX (generally) a problem?

The belligerence of your response was uncalled for. I was looking for a reasonable discussion, not an argument.

 

[EDMIX]

Note I edited sometimes in as a qualifier (between the time you quoted me ironically and posting your reply) so as to avoid straw-man counterpoints using worst-case abusers of the practice. Because the point is, if the product contains sufficient content of sufficient quality in its base form to justify the purchase price, how are MTX (generally) a problem?

The belligerence of your response was uncalled for. I was looking for a reasonable discussion, not an argument.

Again...not really the point. My issue once again is about the comments made about this practice by the publisher.

CD Projekt RED further condemns concept of microtransactions

Cyberpunk’d CD Projekt RED, the team behind The Witcher series as well as the upcoming Cyberpunk 2077, has double-downed on...

www.destructoid.com

Now consider, they could have said exactly what you said ie "devs/pubs supplementing their income with MTX can in fact sometimes be justified as a fair recompense for labor."

Yet they didn't.

They wanted the good PR, to sound like great honest and just devs etc.

 

[Clear]

Again...not really the point. My issue once again is about the comments made about this practice by the publisher.

CD Projekt RED further condemns concept of microtransactions

Cyberpunk’d CD Projekt RED, the team behind The Witcher series as well as the upcoming Cyberpunk 2077, has double-downed on...

www.destructoid.com

Now consider, they could have said exactly what you said ie "devs/pubs supplementing their income with MTX can in fact sometimes be justified as a fair recompense for labor."

Yet they didn't.

They wanted the good PR, to sound like great honest and just devs etc.

What exactly are the MTX (not been following the game, have zero interest in it personally)? How bad are they?

Is it to supplement costs/future development? What exactly?

So they flip-flopped. Big fucking deal. Stop acting like these people are your friends, betraying your trust or something personal.

This is not how the world works, stop being such a fucking snowflake.

 

[EDMIX]

What exactly are the MTX (not been following the game, have zero interest in it personally)? How bad are they?

Is it to supplement costs/future development? What exactly?

So they flip-flopped. Big fucking deal. Stop acting like these people are your friends, betraying your trust or something personal.

This is not how the world works, stop being such a fucking snowflake.

You are still stuck on debating MTX when zero comment I've made has been for or against it. Once more....not really the point.

Name calling isn't going to magically change anything either...

So they flip-flopped. Big fucking deal.

ahhhh there it goes. So when I stated earlier that "Suddenly people have no issue with" xyz, we now get the confirmation of "so they flip-flopped". Now anything they do is chalked up to a "big fucking deal" or "so they flip flipped"

So they lied.
So it has MTX.
So its downgraded.
So they flip-flopped
Sooooo its sounding like the point I made earlier is pretty valid that suddenly people have no issue with things they had issues with other publishers.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

(Skip to almost 3 minutes in)

'We've talked a lot about crunch and other forms of industry abuse this year. We've raked multiple companies over the coals for their unethical and often exploitative behavior. We will keep doing that.

What do we do, however, when this nasty behavior is perpetuated by one of the "good" ones? What if, say, CD Projekt RED was accused of overworking staff in hostile conditions?

Well, according to those excited for Cyberpunk 2077, we should just look the other way.' JS

 

[Clear]

So they lied.
So it has MTX.

The latter is the reason for the former, so why try and stretch a thin argument to two points? And of course you've never, ever, ever had to change your stance on something have you sparkles?

So its downgraded.

Irrelevant unless you are an inflamed fanboy and/or someone who hasn't got a clue about how game-dev works. Shit happens, and things change. Why undo work that's already been completed? Again can you not get it through your pointy crystalline head that its not some grand conspiracy that the entire dev community is in on.

So they flip-flopped
Sooooo its sounding like the point I made earlier is pretty valid that suddenly people have no issue with things they had issues with other publishers.

Well, when I entered this conversation I asked a simple question and followed up with a gentle admonition that maybe you shouldn't get so irritated because not all MTX schemes are equally unjustified or predatory. I was looking for some form of reasonable discussion.

But, alas it wasn't to be. You had to turn it into a fight and forced me to flip-flop into flaming you back...

There is no reason to get so emotional about this stuff.

 

[Mod of War]

Dial back on the personal insults towards one another.

Thank you.

 

[EDMIX]

. I was looking for some form of reasonable discussion.

No you weren't. I stated several times my issues had nothing to do with MTX, simply the team's continuous hypocritical statements.

forced me to

I have no control over you, you make your own choices.

You had to turn it into a fight

Not really. Look back at my responses. I told you several times the point wasn't really about MTX, simply people in general defending something the team themselves claimed to be against. It was more about the team making a statement and then claiming something else when it suits them. When you realized I wasn't debating the concept of MTX with you but the team's prior comments and ethics, suddenly its 'So they flip-flopped. Big fucking deal" and proceeding to name call.

I never once called you a name to pick a fight even remotely as that will get us nowhere.

Simply, this team factually made these statements

CD Projekt RED further condemns concept of microtransactions

Cyberpunk’d CD Projekt RED, the team behind The Witcher series as well as the upcoming Cyberpunk 2077, has double-downed on...

www.destructoid.com

So I find it ironic they are now for MTX. So when you say "make peace with the idea that devs/pubs supplementing their income with MTX can in fact be justified as a fair recompense for labor" , understand I don't disagree with you, shit I 100% agree with that statement, but never did I say I was against any form of MTX, funny enough I'm not against them, I'm questioning how many who supported this team's PAST STATEMENTS are now suddenly completely fine with the flip flop, hypocrisy etc when the shoe is on the other foot.

You are trying to argue about something I never disagreed with in the first place, my issue is why is this team now getting a pass by MANY that argued against MTX and even still do about other publishers.

 

[Clear]

Sorry. Really wasn't looking for an argument.

I should know better given how strongly some people feel about MTX and stuff. But I stand by my point that I don't believe MTX have to be intrinsically bad or predatory (the point of my initial post), and most of all that I don't think flip-flopping on a decision is some sort of cardinal sin.

Its just galling to me when the insinuation is that any change is a calculated offence. Especially in relation to release timing, because it costs serious money to extend development past a planned finish-date.

Its not something that anyone wants, especially those who've been working super-hard to hit the original finish-line only to see it get pushed back further into the distance. Its deeply insulting for the Jim Sterlings of this world to castigate a team for this... as if they haven't got enough on their plate already that they need the internet to stick the boot in.