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[Tragicomedy]

Guns don't kill people, people-with-mental-health-issues-but-who-dont-get-adequate-funding-because-the-right-doesn't-believe-in-increased-healthcare-funding-or-easy-access-to-healthcare-and-who-can-easily-buy-a-gun-because-of-the-loose-gun-restrictions-through-most-of-the-country kill people.

Statistically, this is false. Most gun deaths do not involve a mentally ill person. Quite the opposite. Mentally ill people are instead disproportionately the victims of gun crimes.

The mental illness is a red herring the right throws out to distract from the real issue, which is the fuckton of guns in America and how easy they are to acquire (e.g gun show loophole).

 

[HyperionX]

It is a fantasy in the sense that you're basing your worldview on 2 anecdotes instead of a whole body of fact and research and logic. That's exactly what anti vaccers do. I'm not ignoring your argument, I'm arguing from a place of fact whereas your argument is wholly emotional.

As far as your gun at home - it doesn't just makes your own home more unsafe, it contributes to the overall amount of guns in America. More guns = more gun deaths.

And yes- it is a fantasy. I'm not going to meet in the middle between fact and fiction. I think deep down people just selfishly want their toys and won't give them up.

I know you THINK it makes you safer, but you're wrong.

As a heads up, Mammoth has been using that same argument for years now. He uses his (extremely dubious IMO) personal anecdotes to dismiss literally every piece of evidence ever brought forth to him. I doubt you'll change his mind.

 

[highrider]

The chances of me injuring myself are ZERO.

These are not the words of a person experienced in firearms. I'm ex-military and I know guys who can disassemble and put together most small arms with a blindfold on. They conduct themselves as if an accident could happen anytime.

Edit: saw that you recanted your original statement.

 

[User 406]

This is not news, and it's especially not news to the security minded "responsible" gun owners, since they will refuse to hear it.

 

[Piggus]

Im going to say that the statistics of home defense aren't a great starting place for this kind of support.

I think its ridiculous that a "hobby" is enough to support the ownership of murder tools, and refuse that argument wholesale. If you want to shoot guns, make it so that you have to keep it on the range, no need endanger others so you can have your fun.

A gun locked in a 2000 lb safe is not exactly endangering others. Unfortunately a lot of gun owners are really stupid when it comes to how they store their guns. IMO it should be illegal to not keep guns locked up at home. There are plenty of quick-access safes for the people who really are so paranoid that they think they need to defend themselves.

The story doesn't surprise me unfortunately. The training required for a CCW is a joke. It should be common sense that you're not supposed to even hint at the fact that you have a gun unless you're in a life or death situation and it's your absolute last resort., But a lot of dipshits are instead looking for an excuse to use a gun rather than keeping one as a legitimate self-defense option.

As a heads up, Mammoth has been using that same argument for years now. He uses his (extremely dubious IMO) personal anecdotes to dismiss literally every piece of evidence ever brought forth to him. I doubt you'll change his mind.

To be fair to him, automatically discounting someone's story just because it's something that doesn't happen often makes you look like a giant asshole. Even if his situation is an exception to what generally happens, that doesn't take away from the point you're trying to make. And I find it pretty funny that you're questioning someone's experience when you yourself are so clueless when it comes to guns that you're willing to equate all gun owners to slavery-era racists. It's pathetic, but you're just going to keep doing it, so whatever.

Responsible gun owner is exactly a "No true Scottsman" fallacy. If anything harmful occurred due to a "responsible gun owner", they would no longer be "responsible".

If a gun owner truly is responsible, the odds of something bad happening are extremely slim. In the same way that a responsible drinker knows their limit and knows not to drive drunk. There are a lot of common sense measures a gun owner can take to make sure nothing bad happens, but a lot of people sadly don't take those measures seriously. Not a single one of them could ever be called responsible.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

Buying, using, loading, transporting, and storing a gun are all heavily regulated in Switzerland. Until we actually try and implement some of their common sense policies, we can't just throw our hands in the air and say "welp, we're just built this way."

Seems the only guns you can buy without writing an autobiography and handing over your SSN are single shot rifles.

 

[Ri'Orius]

So, the article gets its statistics from this. And if you read that report, you'll find that, while there were only 1108 justifiable homicides for the five-year period 2008-2012, and 42,419 criminal homicides in that time, in the five-year period from 2007-2011 there were 235,700 instances of violent crime in which the victim attempted to defend themself with a firearm, and an additional 103,000 cases of property crime defense with a firearm.

The goal of self defense isn't to kill the perp, it's to stay safe. So the number of justified homicides doesn't seem like a great statistic to use if you truly want to measure how often a gun is used for self defense. And I also find it pretty disingenuous how the study compares the number of firearm self-defense attempts to the total number of violent crimes, and doesn't at all compare it to the previous number it mentions of criminal homicides. "Less than one percent of victims actually used a gun for self defense" doesn't mean a gun is ineffective at it.

Yes, in a mass shooting scenario an armed would-be good Samaritan would almost certainly cause more havoc than they'd prevent. But in your day-to-day muggings and burglaries, a gun can be an effective defense. Our laws shouldn't be entirely based around the big catastrophes that make headlines. That's how we got the TSA.

 

[HyperionX]

To be fair to him, automatically discounting someone's story just because it's something that doesn't happen often makes you look like a giant asshole. Even if his situation is an exception to what generally happens, that doesn't take away from the point you're trying to make.

It's not simply an unlikely event; it's borderline impossible. If you agree that self-defense events are rare, just a thousand or two per year out of 300 million people in this country, then the chances it happens not once but twice to one person would have to be phenomenally small. Small enough that is way more likely the person is either lying or greatly exaggerating what really happened.

And I find it pretty funny that you're questioning someone's experience when you yourself are so clueless when it comes to guns that you're willing to equate all gun owners to slavery-era racists. It's pathetic, but you're just going to keep doing it, so whatever.

I've said this before: the comparison is mostly accurate. I've pointed out that the gun owners have a lot in common with slave-owners, such as that both have made the argument that just because it is in the constitution, it must be an unimpeachable right, regardless of how much damage it has done. They also have a lot in common with racists, namely in their fear of black men and willingness to rationalize violence against them. Plus, a lot of them really are just racists anyways (huge overlap between the two demographic groups BTW). The argument is straightforward and there's no reason to abandon it, although you're exaggerating my position to make it sound worse.

 

[Jeremy]

This is sort of off-topic from the news article but it's something I noticed today. It may be pure hyperbole but I've seen it twice in different places just today alone.

People posting about leaving guns out in open areas, like their front porch or vehicle, with the intent of proving that "guns don't kill people". So fucking dangerous but here we are.

 

[King Tubby]

We can't all be heroes like Travis Bickle.

 

[xenist]

This is sort of off-topic from the news article but it's something I noticed today. It may be pure hyperbole but I've seen it twice in different places just today alone.

People posting about leaving guns out in open areas, like their front porch or vehicle, with the intent of proving that "guns don't kill people". So fucking dangerous but here we are.

These people should be put in jail.