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The Cove: Japan's dark secret

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CENOBITE said:
Spoken like a true sociopath. Read the scientific studies as to how intelligent they are, listen to them being killed, and you tell me it isn't a crime.
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Yes. Sad to say, moral apathy with regard to the consumption of aquatic mammals is indeed indicative of sociopathic tendencies.

And if you like white sugar in your coffee, you're probably a Nazi.

20090801-pmtjg8fum5a1n4fxntp1x374rg.jpg
 
I don't think whaling will ever be a rational issue, and I'm not convinced that a strictly rational framing of the issue is the way to go anyways.

If anyone is interested, I recommend reading a a book called "Waiting for the Macaws". It talks about the loss of culture and biodiversity from all around the world. There's a chapter in it called Drifting in the Maelstrom in which the author spends time with a Norweigan whaler and also a bit about the history of the IWC. It's fascinating stuff.
 
I don't think the issue here is simply dolphin meat, but instead the cruel methods in which they're killed which almost literally equates to shooting fish in a barrel.

I personally have no issue with whaling as long as the animals aren't near extinction or anything like that.
 
Dolphins and porpoise are protected, but Japan gets around this by calling the hunts "scientific research." It is terrible loophole that needs to be closed. Also it is legal to catch these animals to sell to parks, as that is also considured "research." Some dolphins such as a killer whale can fetch millions of dollars for a healthy live specimin.
 
Forkball said:
I don't think the issue here is simply dolphin meat, but instead the cruel methods in which they're killed which almost literally equates to shooting fish in a barrel.
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That's certainly a reasonable way to approach the issue. I agree that the process should be as humane as possible as long as it's not a crippling inconvenience. This applies to all meats of course.
 
Aske said:
Yes. Sad to say, moral apathy with regard to the consumption of aquatic mammals is indeed indicative of sociopathic tendencies.

And if you like white sugar in your coffee, you're probably a Nazi.
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Fucking white sugarians are worse than Nazis. They're damned whalers.
 
I.F. said:
Conversation over, Cenobite.
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Apparently not.

OK, I completely get your arguments, ones I even have used in my past when I was younger and less educated (against 'petulant' vegans). But I have to say they are pretty bleak ones that hide behind ignorance and 'the law'. "Everyone's doing it, so what's the problem?" or the biblically loaded "they're just animals".

This is not just about the killing and eating of dolphins, it's the fact that the meat is highly toxic due to high levels of mercury and other toxins. So feel free to eat all the dolphin flesh you can get your hands on, by all means.
 
Forkball said:
I don't think the issue here is simply dolphin meat, but instead the cruel methods in which they're killed which almost literally equates to shooting fish in a barrel.

I personally have no issue with whaling as long as the animals aren't near extinction or anything like that.
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The Japanese state that they use a 'one hit kill' technique to the dolphins' spine. The video in the film shows otherwise. They randomly stab them until they bleed to death, filling the cove with blood.
 
The Japanese kill these porpoises for the same reason they illegally hunt dozens of whales every year under the false excuse of "science."

It's because breaking international law, especially for a prosperous developed nation, has next to no actual consequences.

A sovereign nation is just that: not in obedience to any entity. Japan knows it can illegally hunt all the whales, and anything else for that matter, that it wants, without repercussions, and so it does.

And they will continue to do so until there actually ARE consequences for their actions, or until they hunt the whales to extinction.

Most likely the latter, since there seems to be no reason why the current state of international law would change.
 
CENOBITE said:
OK, I completely get your arguments, ones I even have used in my past when I was younger and less educated (against 'petulant' vegans). But I have to say they are pretty bleak ones that hide behind ignorance and 'the law'. "Everyone's doing it, so what's the problem?" or the biblically loaded "they're just animals".
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Well, no, my problem is mainly that you expect me to feel bad because you feel dolphins should be singled out despite the fact that they are in no way endangered and the hunt is sustainable.

This is not just about the killing and eating of dolphins, it's the fact that the meat is highly toxic due to high levels of mercury and other toxins.
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This is indeed a valid health concern, and I am aware of it. The part I find particularly bothersome that it ends up on the menus in a lot of school cafeterias. However that's not what we were arguing about.

So feel free to eat all the dolphin flesh you can get your hands on, by all means.
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I could hardly afford to eat it daily, and considering that I already enjoy many other types of seafood high in mercury--Tuna and Swordfish for example--I doubt I'll be altering my life expectancy much.

So, in conclusion, I will. I'm glad we can agree on that much.

Now I go to bed.
 
CENOBITE said:
Apparently not.

OK, I completely get your arguments, ones I even have used in my past when I was younger and less educated (against 'petulant' vegans). But I have to say they are pretty bleak ones that hide behind ignorance and 'the law'. "Everyone's doing it, so what's the problem?" or the biblically loaded "they're just animals".
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:lol

are you familiar with the phrase 'poisoning the well'?
 
zero9 said:
Why do people care so much about dolphins?

No one gives a shit about pigs and they're supposedly very intelligent animals.

I would love to try some dolphin meat.
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Pigs aren't at any danger of extinction. Some of the marine mammals that Japan hunts are.

That's the difference.

I could hardly afford to eat it daily, and considering that I already enjoy many other types of seafood high in mercury--Tuna and Swordfish for example--I doubt I'll be altering my life expectancy much.
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Do you regularly eat swordfish? That definitely can't be good for your life expectancy.
 
I.F. said:
Well, no, my problem is mainly that you expect me to feel bad because you feel dolphins should be singled out despite the fact that they are in no way endangered and the hunt is sustainable.


This is indeed a valid health concern, and I am aware of it. The part I find particularly bothersome that it ends up on the menus in a lot of school cafeterias. However that's not what we were arguing about.


I could hardly afford to eat it daily, and considering that I already enjoy many other types of seafood high in mercury--Tuna and Swordfish for example--I doubt I'll be altering my life expectancy much.

So, in conclusion, I will. I'm glad we can agree on that much.

Now I go to bed.
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Would you eat chimp meat?
 
I.F. said:
Well, no, my problem is mainly that you expect me to feel bad because you feel dolphins should be singled out despite the fact that they are in no way endangered and the hunt is sustainable.
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So you are incapable of feeling bad about something? That's a shame. Who said anything about 'singling' them out? The same should be said about all cetaceans.


I.F. said:
This is indeed a valid health concern, and I am aware of it. The part I find particularly bothersome that it ends up on the menus in a lot of school cafeterias. However that's not what we were arguing about.
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It's what I'm arguing about. Deal.


I.F. said:
I could hardly afford to eat it daily, and considering that I already enjoy many other types of seafood high in mercury--Tuna and Swordfish for example--I doubt I'll be altering my life expectancy much.
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You can alter your life expectancy by eating too much Tuna and Swordfish. My girlfriend has a Ph.D in marine biology with emphasis in Marlin and has no illusions about their toxicity as you do.

I.F. said:
So, in conclusion, I will. I'm glad we can agree on that much.

Now I go to bed.
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Oh, we don't agree at all. Goodnight. I'm sure you will dream about your world filled with people who think just as you... where the seas are infinite filled with seafood and where the oil never runs out.
 
It'll be for the better once we've wiped all these species out. They won't have to live any more under our constant abuse and exploitation. It'll all be our undoing in the end.
 
CENOBITE said:
You can alter your life expectancy by eating too much Tuna and Swordfish. My girlfriend has a Ph.D in marine biology with emphasis in Marlin and has no illusions about their toxicity as you do.
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I think you missed his point. I believe he stated that, because he already eats a large amount of Food A (tuna/swordfish) that is high in mercury/toxins, consuming Food B (dolphin/whale) would not significantly affect his life expectancy any further than it already has been by his consumption of tuna fish / swordfish.
 
mre said:
I think you missed his point. I believe he stated that, because he already eats a large amount of Food A (tuna/swordfish) that is high in mercury/toxins, consuming Food B (dolphin/whale) would not significantly affect his life expectancy any further than it already has been by his consumption of tuna fish / swordfish.
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Heh, O.K. I get that. I think we all use that logic now and then. I used to use the same logic all the time before I quit smoking, "I'm going to die one day anyway, what's one more cigarette going to do?"
 
I live in Japan and have never seen whale/dolphin on the menu, but I have seen raw horse meat. Gonna try all of them as soon as I can post later in this thread with impressions.
 
I can't believe people are actually defending the practice of slaughtering dolphins. :/ I heard about this doc on Fresh Air the other day...The main activist is the guy who trained the Flipper dolphins back in the '60's, and he walked away from a lucrative career after working closely with the animals and not being able to live with himself exploiting them anymore.

If you think animals, especially highly intelligent and emotional ones such as dolphins and whales, are incapable of suffering, and humans are the only living beings worthy of respect, then then I'm not sure what to say. We're just animals too, albeit uniquely evolved.

In this particular case, the hunt is especially brutal, bloody, and drawn-out. And unnecessary. The main objective, in addition to capturing animals for waterparks, is wiping out dolphin populations that compete with fishermen who have overfished their own waters.
 
As long as they don't hunt them to complete extinction, I think it's fine to eat whatever.

Does anyone know if the populations are dropping or not? From what I understand they don't kill enough to cause negative population growth.

Len Dontree said:
If you think animals, especially highly intelligent and emotional ones such as dolphins and whales, are incapable of suffering, and humans are the only living beings worthy of respect, then then I'm not sure what to say. We're just animals too, albeit uniquely evolved.
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If you say this, yet still eat any sort of meat, you're a hypocrite.

And who's to say that plants aren't crying out when we cut them down?

Until we can sustain ourselves on food that is completely manmade with no living matter used in its creation, there is no way you can logically support this argument.
 
Are people seriously comparing Dolphins to cows and pigs in this thread? Those animals, in current edible form, are a product of humans and domestication. Dolphins, whales, seals, etc.. are not domesticated, they are WILD. The comparison when examined is like apples to oranges

In my opinion killing a domesticated animal for food is one thing, but stealing a wild animal from the environment for a profit is another. Sure at one time cows were 'wild', but that was over literally a couple thousand years ago, we can't do anything about it now.
 
Len Dontree said:
I can't believe people are actually defending the practice of slaughtering dolphins. :/ I heard about this doc on Fresh Air the other day...The main activist is the guy who trained the Flipper dolphins back in the '60's, and he walked away from a lucrative career after working closely with the animals and not being able to live with himself exploiting them anymore.

If you think animals, especially highly intelligent and emotional ones such as dolphins and whales, are incapable of suffering, and humans are the only living beings worthy of respect, then then I'm not sure what to say. We're just animals too, albeit uniquely evolved.
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And cows/pigs/chicken don't suffer when we slaughter them by the millions?

In this particular case, the hunt is especially brutal, bloody, and drawn-out. And unnecessary. The main objective, in addition to capturing animals for waterparks, is wiping out dolphin populations that compete with fishermen who have overfished their own waters.
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Got any evidence to back that up?
 
zoku88 said:
You can basically say the same thing for fish in general, given that there's massive overfishing done almost everywhere

(bad things are predicted by 2050, I believe.)
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This is what I don't get. They know they are basically fucking over themselves, or - given that fishing is a family business in a lot of places - their families.

What the hell? There's being short sighted, but this is just idiotic.
 
KTallguy said:
Sounds like a great excuse!

They are still living beings, they feel pain and emotion.

They also taste delicious.
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as stated before, they are a PRODUCT of domestication. If you think the cows we eat now are comparible to the animals first domesticated you're mistaken. Sure they feel pain and maybe some emotion, but they are also bred by the thousands to sustain food supplies. When they start breeding dolphins and whales to the extent of other domesticated food products you're arguement might have some validity.
 
BlackSalad said:
In my opinion killing a domesticated animal for food is one thing
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What does it matter if they're domesticated? do they not feel pain? dogs and cats are domesticated too, would you eat them?

I don't see what's wrong with killing wild animals for food. If you were hungry, wouldn't you kill a wild boar for food?
 
akachan ningen said:
What does it matter if they're domesticated? do they not feel pain? dogs and cats are domesticated too, would you eat them?

I don't see what's wrong with killing wild animals for food. If you were hungry, wouldn't you kill a wild boar for food?
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I wasn't aware the japanese were in such a food shortage. I have no problem with them killing animals for need.

edit
if that were the case though, i'd suggest somthing a little more economically feasible
 
BlackSalad said:
Are people seriously comparing Dolphins to cows and pigs in this thread? Those animals, in current edible form, are a product of humans and domestication. Dolphins, whales, seals, etc.. are not domesticated, they are WILD. The comparison when examined is like apples to oranges
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Well, some people don't see the difference, or don't want to make any difference. On one side you have the callous "kill em till they are endangered" to empathetic "don't kill a single animal". What you have are different levels of empathy and responsibility for the other animals living on this planet with us.

I think the mature view most civilized countries are taking is acknowledging there is a problem and trying to do something about it. However, this is more on the side of "kill em till they are endangered" of not doing anything until a catastrophe occurs. I do think that with the overpopulation of us human animals continuing to rise, stronger and stronger conservation measures will need to take place within the next 40 years. If not, meat eaters will only be left with eating insects for protein.

http://www.food-insects.com/books_on_insects_as_food.htm
 
BlackSalad said:
I wasn't aware the japanese were in such a food shortage. I have no problem with them killing animals for need.

edit
if that were the case though, i'd suggest somthing a little more economically feasible
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I didn't say anything about japan or what they're killing. I'm just asking you to clarify this ridiculous idea you have that you shouldn't kill wild animals but domestic animals are okay.
 
BlackSalad said:
When they start breeding dolphins and whales to the extent of other domesticated food products you're arguement might have some validity.
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Cool, so if we create huge whale and dolphin farms and start breeding them specifically for slaughter, the moral argument is solved?

Wow, I never knew it was so simple!

My view is that animal populations/plant populations should NEVER be slaughtered in such large numbers that it threatens endangerment or extinction for the species.
 
KTallguy said:
Cool, so if we create huge whale and dolphin farms and start breeding them specifically for slaughter, the moral argument is solved?

Wow, I never knew it was so simple!
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moral arguement isn't entirely solved, but if that were the case we wouldn't be pushing a speicies into endagerment and perhaps extinction---which is the real issue at hand.


I didn't say anything about japan or what they're killing. I'm just asking you to clarify this ridiculous idea you have that you shouldn't kill wild animals but domestic animals are okay.
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its ridiculous to consume food that was made purely for consumption?
 
I.F. said:
Well, what do you call the place where your beef gets made?
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Bovine University

I just thought that eating dolphin was looked down on because of how smart they are. Though I'm not a big fish person anyways (maybe once every other month).
 
BlackSalad said:
its ridiculous to consume food that was made purely for consumption?
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Animals aren't "made" they're born, same as wild animals. They're the brainless clones you suggest they are. It's ridiculous that you're suggesting they're so different without giving an reasons.
 
BlackSalad said:
moral arguement isn't entirely solved, but if that were the case we wouldn't be pushing a speicies into endagerment and perhaps extinction---which is the real issue at hand.
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The point The Cove is trying to make is more empathetic than just keeping them from becoming extinct. They point out how dolphins and whales are self aware. They see themselves in a mirror and know they are looking at a reflection, much like higher apes, which we don't eat (except for Africans who eat 'bushmeat' which has been found to possibly be the source of many diseases).
 
BlackSalad said:
its ridiculous to consume food that was made purely for consumption?
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African slaves were bred purely for work after being shipped overseas and "domesticated" by European colonists. I guess that wasn't too ridiculous then.

CENOBITE said:
They point out how dolphins and whales are self aware. They see themselves in a mirror and know they are looking at a reflection, much like higher apes, which we don't eat (except for Africans who eat 'bushmeat' which has been found to possibly be the source of many diseases).
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So where do we draw the line? If it recognizes that it's looking at it's reflection, no eating?

I think it's silly to say that dolphins are not OK to eat because they are "self aware", yet swine and other animals bred for consumption can display plenty of intelligent traits. It's picking and choosing based on emotion and not empirical fact.
 
In a practical note, while it's difficult for me or most people to empathize with animals of any sort (given what we do to them...) it's probably in our best interests to properly manage animal populations for the sake of diversity and maintaining carefully balanced ecologies which animals are part of.

We can't expect to kill off 90% of the world's species, replace them all with domesticated farm stock and not expect to face wide scale consequences in our environment that has been shaped by all these creatures... an environment that in turn has shaped us, and also an environment in which we've so successfully, but precariously propogated ourselves in.
 
KTallguy said:
African slaves were bred purely for work after being shipped overseas and "domesticated" by European colonists. I guess that wasn't too ridiculous then.
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I consider human beings and wild animals two very different things

The point The Cove is trying to make is more empathetic than just keeping them from becoming extinct. They point out how dolphins and whales are self aware. They see themselves in a mirror and know they are looking at a reflection, much like higher apes, which we don't eat (except for Africans who eat 'bushmeat' which has been found to possibly be the source of many diseases).
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Understood, as I havent seen the movie, and I don't entirely agree with it from what i've read. But I think the points I've brought into the thread can relate to the same cause.

Animals aren't "made" they're born, same as wild animals. They're the brainless clones you suggest they are. It's ridiculous that you're suggesting they're so different without giving an reasons.
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Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming refers to the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control.
 
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