Yea, that's not what I take "the full experience" to mean at all. For a game that was sandwiched between 2 other big releases that I had been looking forward to for a long time within a 10 day span (South Park and Infamous), I probably would've passed on the game and waited for what I'm sure will be some kind of super ultimate edition with everything included in the next 12-15 months had I known.
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The Dark Souls II DLC is great ... and that's a problem.
- Thread starter Raging Spaniard
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Yea, that's not what I take "the full experience" to mean at all. For a game that was sandwiched between 2 other big releases that I had been looking forward to for a long time within a 10 day span (South Park and Infamous), I probably would've passed on the game and waited for what I'm sure will be some kind of super ultimate edition with everything included in the next 12-15 months had I known.
swazzyswess
Member
The horror, THE HORROR.
Also, the irony, the IRONY, of someone complaining about DLC and then mentioning Infamous, a game a fraction of the length of DS2 that also had more expensive DLC (both in terms of dollars and play time).
Dark Souls 2 even without its DLC is a far larger and better game than either of those. And that's coming from someone who really liked South Park.
Dang, just finished Sunken king and loved it all. About to move into Iron King next, was hoping for more greatness.
Mt Heart Attack
Member
Bosses are better than the first DLC (well, apart from one), level design is easily worse.
Definitely larger, and I wouldn't try to argue that it wasn't better either, but I don't accept the excuse of "well the game is already pretty big" as an excuse for going back on your word as to how much I have to pay to get the full experience of the game. Plenty of other things they could've done with the cut content other than tack on an extra $25 price tag.
Coriolanus
Banned
If you don't consider a fifty hour game a full experience, and then mention two games that, duct-taped together, would barely last for 50% of the average time DS2 takes to complete, then I don't even know what to tell you.
You will also notice that there is DLC completion time info in that page.
You'd do well to notice that each DLC also lasts almost as much as the games you have mentioned. For a fraction of the price.
Mt Heart Attack
Member
I don't know man, 25 bucks for the season pass seems like great value for money, especially considering what other games are charging nowadays.
As far as I know, you can play the DLC content as a summoned ghost even if you haven't purchased it (correct me if I'm wrong). That's also kind of generous of them. Of all the games I could complain about for not getting my money's worth, I think DaS 2 would be pretty far down on my list.
So incredibly sick of this b team bullshit. Such an easy, lazy way to criticize the game.
Anyway, DLC #1 is a great area and DLC #2 has great bosses. Vanilla DS2 is certainly a whole game unto itself and has more content and replay value than most full priced games.
I agree the best bosses are in the DLC though. I wish some bosses in the main game were harder but it's only a good thing that the DLC is of such high quality.
Anyway, DLC #1 is a great area and DLC #2 has great bosses. Vanilla DS2 is certainly a whole game unto itself and has more content and replay value than most full priced games.
I agree the best bosses are in the DLC though. I wish some bosses in the main game were harder but it's only a good thing that the DLC is of such high quality.
Only parts of it, but it's certainly an interesting idea.
The level may be worse than the first DLC but that's like saying Super Metroid is worse than Metroid Prime (I know that this is subjective, but in this case I consider Metroid Prime perfection).
I don't know what the hell people want out of level design. Do you just want it to look pretty? Go walk around the nothing that is Ash Lake for 40 hours if you want that.
The second DLC is strong and it's all about the descent down to turn on the shithole you've wandered into. The level design gets all fun and exploratory half way through which is its strongest part.
edit: Also the first DLC is the best Dark Souls level there is.
The best Souls level goes to Latria 3-1
That boss is essentially three red phantoms that are particularly egregious cheaters. I realize it's supposed to be a cooperative challenge, but the design is so lazy that it's a complete flop. Three guys with huge poise and infinite stamina just aren't fun to fight; it's the dragon shrine knights all over again, except this time they don't even have unique character models. It's my least favorite boss in the entire Souls series, which is quite something given how much I hate Bed of Chaos.
Mt Heart Attack
Member
Well, the level design does pick up in the second part of the DLC, but the first part is extremely linear and kind of plain, I also thought there were a few cheap enemy encounters throughout the DLC, while the areas before the two optional bosses are just lazy. The overall setting is also, imo, not quite as atmospheric and awe-inspiring as the Sunken City. Of course, it's not bad by any means, it just could be better.
And I also like Metroid Prime better than Super Metroid
I see, so it's a bit like a glorified demo, still quite an ingenious way to promote it.
I strongly disagree. The fact that it's 3 humanoid characters with decent AI in a relatively large area -- with meaningful verticality and traversal, unlike most Souls series boss areas -- is what makes it exciting and unique. I realize fully well that many dislike it, and lament the fact that we'll probably not see something like it again. To me it's not merely "not bad" as a boss fight, it's actually one of the most unique challenges in the series. To compare it with the glorified QTE that is Bed of Chaos (ugh) does it a huge disservice.
I wonder if people are really so shallow that they would have reacted more favourably to this fight had it used 3 new, non-human models but with, in effect, the same movement and attack patterns.
Orochinagis
Member
The real go "talk to the king" main quest in on the DLC, think about it.
People here are complaining about Sir Alonne so even full new movesets and skins would not stop the critics.
I can see why people would be disappointed about this trio, but what I never got was the complaints about the giants with infinite stamina in Dragon Shrine. They are like super slow!
Wonder if Crown of the ivory king will be self contained, or whether we will see a real final boss, or maybe just after collecting the three crowns, cause I don't know why you'd go collecting these crowns anyway.
Well I don't see why the dlc gets all this love about it being superior to the main game. I guess the level design is better ( but honestly it couldn't have been worse than it was in the main game) but the enemy layout and designs are just as bad. In Sulken King, you have the enemies with poise for days and move cancelling abilities and a re skinned Nassandra that summons another boss from the vanilla game as a boss. In Iron King, you have another reskinned boss from the vanilla game, and just a bunch of ambushes for you to fight through. I will say outside of Smelter 2.0, I did like the bosses better but I don't know if I'd say this is better than the main game. Felt like more of the same to me.
Something I did recently was I started my first NG+ run, but I'm doing something different.
I made a character specifically for NG+. This meant I only did mandatory bosses the first time through. ("Speeding" through the game like that, I think i beat the game around level 100) But the big thing I did was, before I started my NG+, I sold ALL my gear, weapons, rings, and clothes (except for un-upgraded versions of the cloak set you start the game in) and got rid of most of my other items (I bought 99 lifegems, firebombs, and knives, and kept my lockstones, silky stones, and spices. Everything else went away to gavlan)
So I basically started the game as if NG+ was the regular game, more or less, with a character that needed to start fresh and work their way up in gear, rather than powering through NG+ with a +10 lightning greatsword, I'm struggling with my regular weapons.
It makes the changes that much more powerful, because i can't handle them easily. It makes the game feel more like DS1, it makes the game feel more like the DLC. There's tons of areas of the game where "blank" spots were actually supposed to have enemies show up or ambush you. It makes the game feel so much better that, were they not all red phantoms, it would have done the game a service to let you start the game on "normal" and "hard" mode.
starting the game in ng+ things betwixt without proper weaponry is SAVAGE. you have the falconers just killing you over and over, stalking the entrypoint into dranglaec, and the two red phantoms that hop down off the rock on the way to the cabin....everything about NG+ improves the game. The way to chapel of blue feels much more interesting because knights of blue are littering it. I wish they'd made them blue phantoms, but having them be red adds to the stuff maughlin was talking about them with the knights being dirty. the cliffs leading to the skeleton lords make much more sense with the additional enemies where they are, and even covetous demon has enough health to be slightly threatening now.
Basically, NG+ should have been the experience we all had, after playing it, it feels like the regular game was toned down to make it more appealing to mass audiences, but there wasn't an option to play the "real" game from the start. It actually does alot to make the game feel more in line with the dlc, but you kind of have to go into NG+ without any of your NG1 gear for it to be effective, which kind of ruins it.
can you imagine how great it would have been if the first thing that happens in DS2 was "you take a few steps, and then you get killed by 4 falconers" it would have felt narratively great and been a good gameplay moment/troll.
I made a character specifically for NG+. This meant I only did mandatory bosses the first time through. ("Speeding" through the game like that, I think i beat the game around level 100) But the big thing I did was, before I started my NG+, I sold ALL my gear, weapons, rings, and clothes (except for un-upgraded versions of the cloak set you start the game in) and got rid of most of my other items (I bought 99 lifegems, firebombs, and knives, and kept my lockstones, silky stones, and spices. Everything else went away to gavlan)
So I basically started the game as if NG+ was the regular game, more or less, with a character that needed to start fresh and work their way up in gear, rather than powering through NG+ with a +10 lightning greatsword, I'm struggling with my regular weapons.
It makes the changes that much more powerful, because i can't handle them easily. It makes the game feel more like DS1, it makes the game feel more like the DLC. There's tons of areas of the game where "blank" spots were actually supposed to have enemies show up or ambush you. It makes the game feel so much better that, were they not all red phantoms, it would have done the game a service to let you start the game on "normal" and "hard" mode.
starting the game in ng+ things betwixt without proper weaponry is SAVAGE. you have the falconers just killing you over and over, stalking the entrypoint into dranglaec, and the two red phantoms that hop down off the rock on the way to the cabin....everything about NG+ improves the game. The way to chapel of blue feels much more interesting because knights of blue are littering it. I wish they'd made them blue phantoms, but having them be red adds to the stuff maughlin was talking about them with the knights being dirty. the cliffs leading to the skeleton lords make much more sense with the additional enemies where they are, and even covetous demon has enough health to be slightly threatening now.
Basically, NG+ should have been the experience we all had, after playing it, it feels like the regular game was toned down to make it more appealing to mass audiences, but there wasn't an option to play the "real" game from the start. It actually does alot to make the game feel more in line with the dlc, but you kind of have to go into NG+ without any of your NG1 gear for it to be effective, which kind of ruins it.
can you imagine how great it would have been if the first thing that happens in DS2 was "you take a few steps, and then you get killed by 4 falconers" it would have felt narratively great and been a good gameplay moment/troll.
I don't have the link on hand, but at E3 the producer said that there is a "surprise" for people who get all 3 crowns. My guess is they'll just rehash the Manus fight from Artorias of the Abyss.
One thing I didn't like about the DLC here and in DS1, is that it is all endgame content. You are supposed to be at high level cause everything hits like a train. And if you somehow were to take on it at an early level -would require some drastic shortcuts in DS1- you'd end up steamrolling the rest of the game.
Wish it was better integrated with the rest of the game, adding new enemies, at adequate levels, to old areas.
Dunno if there is a good solution.
Here's hoping for four-headed Vendrick, each head with a crown -one his own-.
Fight 3 smelter demons at once, each one a different colour.
For whatever it's worth we didn't see "Prepare to Die" in NA on consoles despite it being a reasonably successful game, whereas I recall it hit both Europe and Japan (well, under a different name but same thing.) Granted if you're going PC there's still getting it on sale, and it's not as if it couldn't go on sale on 360 or especially PS3 either, but just because the likes of Bethesda and Rockstar have made a habit of those kinds of bundles doesn't mean smaller (outside of Japan anyway) publishers like Bandai Namco will bother even if it may make a lot of sense. Or that retailers will bite on the offer of stocking it, whichever.
So what you're saying is you hope the ultra final boss is a good version of the Four Kings? (Four Crowns....)
I feel like if you're strong enough to beat any of the great old ones (Lost Sinner) You're probably strong enough to handle the dlc, (though you might want to use a soul vessel to pump some VIT.) When Sunken Crown launched I did the DLC as soon as I finished 2 of the old ones (Sinner and Rotten) and I was able to handle it. Even if you do the DLC as early as possible, you still have bits like the OIK's Memories to do during endgame. it DOES feel best if you do that content after having entered the king's memories as endgame content. It totally works if you do them right after the old one though, as it just feels like 2 halves of one story. (Especially if you're open to the DLC suggesting who the Rotten is, who the poison statues represent, and what the story is behind various things that lorecrafters have previously pieced together nonsense on based on how skimpy the game's lore was. The DLC is retconning better plot into the game.)
My only big issue with the DLC is that if you do even one of them you end up overleveled for the rest of the game. This is exacerbated if you co-op with a friend (with SK done and only Sir Alonne left on OIK, my friend and I are SL145 pre-Drangleic). If you do the DLC on NG+/NG+2 or so though, it's fine. You also get all the extra red phantom enemies in OIK that way. SK doesn't have any extras in NG+ for some reason.
Level inflation also might be a strategy to combat the low number of people that actually get through the main game too though?
http://steamcommunity.com/stats/236430/achievements
(Is this by player account?)
47.1% got past LGK
Level inflation also might be a strategy to combat the low number of people that actually get through the main game too though?
http://steamcommunity.com/stats/236430/achievements
(Is this by player account?)
47.1% got past LGK
hydrophilic attack
Member
Nah, that's second best.
Best is 5-2.
Due to doing it single player, I was not a great fan. But I think you are right regarding the quoted. Just look at how people consider Elana a re-skin of Nashandra and Sinh a re-skin of Kalameet (or even Ancient Dragon wtf) even though the battles play very differently. Apparently how the bosses look is all that matters. And don't get me started on the irony of DaS I super-fans attacking DaS II for re-skins when DaS I had Asylum Demon, Stray Demon and Demon Firesage.
I like the theory that Vaati has been hinting at in some of his videos:
That Shanalotte is the Nashandra/Elana equivalent of this cycle.
though it would probably have people whining about re-skins again.
AgentOtaku
Member
Whenever I read these statements, im immediately inclined to disagree... then I take a second to think about it and yeah, the DLC is pretty amazing, especially when compared to the main game. I just think the narrative/lore payoff itself is a bit overated.
Anyway, im still enjoying Dark2 (30 hours in), so cant quite comment on it yet. For every one thing it does wrong, it also does two things right I feel.
My theory is that four kings became
darklurker
Everyone wants a reskinned Bed of Chaos.
Really? You are a better player than I am, Sunken King kicked my ass super hard and my character was just before doing Giant Lord. In fact I had to go back and kill him and Vendrick and the throne duo for extra souls and leveling.
I kind of cruised through Iron King, but then I remembered all the leveling I did in Sunken so I am now level like.....192....in NG.
The way I see it
Nashandra = kaathe, Shanalotte = frampt, at least from the plot standpoint. Not saying they are the same characters. Just that DS2 lacked the possibility of siding with the Kaathe equivalent this time
Plenty of fans don't think Dark Souls 1 has any flaws. Yeah it's a masterpiece, but it's got some real shit moments. (The run-up to Ornstien & Smaugh is some total bullshit. Seath, Nito, Pinwheel, Bed of Chaos, and Four Kings have some pretty rotten run-ups to the boss) DS2 is probably better than Demons souls, which has great visual design, but only about 4 bosses that have good narrative AND combat design. (And even then, even the best bosses of that game are super exploitable) DS2 is pretty good if you look at it in the context of the entire series, rather than just against DS1.
Also, Vaati's videos have kind of gone off the rails. He seems to be more interested in creating stories for his channel to draw in patreon and ad money than in assembling what the lore of the game actually is.
The big thing is that we'll probably get Memory of the Emerald Herald added to the game with the third and final large patch, people have found her child model, and realised that the dialogue from her child voice actor (credits) are not in the game yet, as vendrick's dialogue was added into the game with Sunken King...
I don't think we'll fight shanalotte (You can kill her, so how could she come back as the end boss?) But....we'll probably get something added to the end.
What we'll probably get: ivory crown behind sinner (to match the other 3 regular old ones (freya isnt an old one, and tseldora's bonfire has stuff going on already). also, the shrine of winter...it's what guards Vendrick's crown, the 4th crown) and shrine of winter will get a challenge route memory added to it, and we'll probably get something added to the very end. child emerald herald will probably be added to something somewhere, too.
WHAT. You're crazy.
The verticality of the tower's design in the second DLC is fantastic. I'll fully admit that it can create confusion and it's harder to map the area in your mind, but it's incredibly well done and the shortcuts are there frequently too.
I loved it. The better bosses certainly helped too. The DLC has been great to phenomenal so far, easily outstripping AoA as far as I'm concerned.
It's already longer with only 2/3rds having been released. AoA had great bosses and one good area (the town) but I really think people look back on it too fondly purely because of the truly excellent bosses.
Actually, this is what I like most about all Souls DLC.
I hate RPG DLC which integrates "somewhere in the game". I have no interest in replaying the entire game just to see the DLC, or playing it overleveled in some post-game "concession access" mode. I feel like that type of DLC punishes me for playing the game before it was "complete", while post-game DLC gives me a great reason to revisit.
I agree, mostly. The one thing DS2 DLC is missing is NPCs, even if they only play a very limited role (as in AotA).
I jumped into the dlc way early and had no real issues. Basically as soon as I cleared gutter before doing either iron keep or shaded woods I cleared dlc1. Enemies were a bit tougher but still manageable(sl 90 ish).
I just finished iron keep and have access to dlc2 but I still have a long ways to go in vanilla game. Not too worried about it being impenetrable at my stage of the game.
I just finished iron keep and have access to dlc2 but I still have a long ways to go in vanilla game. Not too worried about it being impenetrable at my stage of the game.
Big thing I realized a bit ago, the great old ones are not reincarnations of the ds1 bosses, because that contradicts the idea of reincarnation completely. Reincarnation is a soul that is reborn in other bodies,
but on NG+ the bosses still also drop their own soul.
They are being empowered by the lordsoul, as it exerts its influence over themselves and, by proxy, the land. its like a curse.
Fume Knight drops his own soul and a shard of Nadalia's Soul, which you clearly see empowering him in his fight, and in his lore
But yeah, people jump to conclusions on making everything be someone from DS1, when it's not. it's much more ambiguous. it's a sequel to DS2, which means that lore carries over, but its not literally
"This is Gwyn 2.0"
Ever since the DLC released I have been completely unable to do co op or get invaded by anyone. I even started a completely new character and still don't get invaded in Heide's Tower or the Grave of Saints.
So far I've done the first one and thought it was pretty good, although the boss fight was kind of hard to do by myself since by the end there was Vestalt and 5 skeletons chasing me around while the boss (forgot her name) did flame swathes over and over. How does the second compare to the first in difficulty?
So far I've done the first one and thought it was pretty good, although the boss fight was kind of hard to do by myself since by the end there was Vestalt and 5 skeletons chasing me around while the boss (forgot her name) did flame swathes over and over. How does the second compare to the first in difficulty?
Vendrick's crown is in Shrine of Amana though, the Shrine of Winter has nothing to do with it, unless I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say.
I don't disagree that something new might happen with the Shrine of Winter since they've been using the exact same model for all of them. It might be that the Shrine of Winter becomes the gateway to accessing the Ivory King DLC (since they already want you at endgame to finish all the content for OIK).
Hellkite also found an unused secret boss in DS1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcy7RqxI1ho&list=UUEaY9y4_upF1aGqKR7tElSA
Eeeh, I'd normally agree, but I've played through DS2 like 5 times already, so giving me more differences in the next couple of playthroughs would be nice.
Orochinagis
Member
Well if you take some steps back and re watch the initial main quest is about seeking the king and see the true form of the soul to break the curse. Which of course its quickly forgotten in game and you are just killing stuff until the Emeral healrd redirects you to do things you dont understand because your original journey was to break the curse not taking the throne, seeker of the flame and more pointless titles and be a pawn of the devs game design.
Then you buy the DLC and you see the main quest was about getting the crowns to gain power to see the power of the soul (whaaaaaaaaaat?) because vendrick somewhat after defeating the kings left the crowns in their owners areas for the sake of the plot which was retconed in the DLC anyway was moved to be a three episode DLC alonside with the snow enviroment which is no mentioned in the vanilla game, just wow.
CyberPunked
Member
Why do you guess this?
The character models are only part of the problem for me. The bigger issue, which I alluded to with my Dragon Shrine comparison, is that the enemies feel cheap and unfair to fight. There are no openings that you can punish. They just keep swinging (or dodging) seemingly at random, and their repertoire is composed entirely of normal player attack animations. For me, that removes the fun of mastering the boss's moves and overcoming a fun challenge. Instead, it feels like you just take a swing when you think there might be an opening and get punished for it yourself more often than not. It breaks a lot of what I like about Souls games in general, and that's what I dislike about it.
The very first thing that Emerald says to you is "are you the next monarch?". Game was always about her having you replace Vendrick.
I did enjoy the first DLC, although I had a lot of camera problems when fighting the second boss.
However, when I reached
I was really taken aback. Not only is this fight something i really disliked about DS2, its now at the end of a really long gauntlet and the ticking aoe damage (in my opinion an awful idea for a souls game where avoiding damage is your #1 priority). Even if you disagree with me about his design, it's just a re-skin! If I want to fight a harder version of this boss, i'll go use a bonfire astetic. I'm not sure I have it in me to finish this second DLC.
However, when I reached
this guy
Not one of my favorites either, but it was an opportunity for me to get better at parrying, and use the Great Resonant Soul to pretty good effect. All in all, a very "educational" boss battle if you have the patience for it.
JudgmentJay
Member
I like the DLCs and think they're better than most of the base game in terms of level design, but I still don't think they compare to most of the areas in Demon's/Dark Souls.
There's just too much "let's throw hordes of enemies at the player and call it a day" going on for it to be anything special. With Demon's and Dark it feels like enemy placement was something they spent alot of time on and I just don't get that feeling here. Also, the atmosphere of both places just doesn't do it for me. Yeah, they're neat-looking environments, but there's not much beyond that. I really like the Sinh, Fume Knight, and
boss fights though... definitely some of the best in the game.
There's just too much "let's throw hordes of enemies at the player and call it a day" going on for it to be anything special. With Demon's and Dark it feels like enemy placement was something they spent alot of time on and I just don't get that feeling here. Also, the atmosphere of both places just doesn't do it for me. Yeah, they're neat-looking environments, but there's not much beyond that. I really like the Sinh, Fume Knight, and
Alonne
I think it's smart to have it be endgame content as most people want an excuse to use their fully levelled gear.
However, the one major issue I have with that approach is when you don't have cloud saves. I totally assumed DkS2 did because the first game had, and I lost all my progress as a result. Sure, it took me like 6 hours to rush through the game once more and get the basics needed to access the DLC, but it's still a shame that I no longer have all of my favourite gear as a result.
As such, I wasn't sure if a certain
ghostly enemy
It also didn't help that, because I'd rushed through a game I knew too well, I forgot that I had never put a single point into Vitality. So when everyone was saying how fair and fun some of the new bosses were, I was like 'f*ck that, these are one hit wonders that give me no chance to learn from my mistakes'.
Which is totally the case when you have 10 Vitality on a level 150 character....
hydrophilic attack
Member
That's kinda harsh man. But even if he may do a bit too much speculation and making up his own stories, I don't mind it at all, because his stories are entertaining and fun to think about.
But that could also work as an origin story for the boss...
Do we actually kill her though, or just one of her manifestations? IIRC, if you kill her in e.g. Undead Crypt, she will still remain in Majula, indicating that all the different instances that we see of her are just different manifestations.
But yeah, it's a bit of a crackpot theory.
He formulated it after the first DLC and named as evidence the fact that, if you consider Shulva as it's own separate cycle, then Elana being there sort of indicates that each cycle would have their own Nashandra equivalent. Vendrick first thought of Nashandra as his ally, who leads him to attain greater power, just as Shanalotte does for us. If Nashandra came in Vendrick's cycle there should be one in our cycle as well. And Shanalotte best fits the bill. The fact that the second DLC launched, featuring a new kingdom and a new Nashandra equivalent in Nadalia, reinforcing the notion that each cycle would have its own dark queen, after he formulated his theory lends it some support I would argue.
You just made my day
I actually felt the opposite, somewhat. While Sir Alonne was good, I did not care for Fume Knight and Smelter 2.0 was just stupid, whereas I liked every boss encounter in the first DLC (especially Sinh, re-skinned Kalameet was still fun for me). I also loved the level design and concepts of the second DLC more than the first DLC; the ashen idols and such sold me on it, as did the scenery in general.
Because they're lazy and all main villains of the base game and DLC are fragments of Manus.
Shulva was alright for atmosphere, but i really disagree with you on the Iron King. The creepy voices combined with the ash covered land were awesome. Additionally, after you start the clockwork again, the clanking at the top of the tower has an amazing ominous musicality to it.
The enormous chains between desolate towers and ashen lands have a real "dead land" feel to them.
TheNamelessOne
Member
I bought and was really hyped to play the DLC a few days ago! Until I realized I lost my savegame when formatting my HDD a while back... Not gonna put 30+ hours of the same into it before I get to play the DLC. Think I'm gonna see if I can find a savegame.