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The Dark Spire Official Launch Thread of Crawling to the Top
- Thread starter whiterabbit
- Start date
commish said:
Wearing equipment with a Down Arrow for a given class will block any abilities associated with that class. For example, if you are teaching your Warrior some Priest levels, you probably won't get any benefit since you'll constantly be wearing stuff that precludes Priest abilities. This is what the instructions refer to as 'class limiting'.
However, once you get the secondary classes, things change. The main advantage of those classes that instead of needing equipment that BOTH basic classes you can use, you can equip stuff usable by EITHER. Thus, Druids (Mage + Priest) get to use the slightly better armor that Priests can wear while owning with the spells, Ninja (Thief + Warrior) can sit in the front row safely and use heavier weapons, etc.
Thief = lock and trap proficiencies.
Mage = Arcane spells
Priest = Holy Spells
The instructions state there is nothing that you lose out with for Warriors, but I don't know (They can use most equipment anyways, so that might be the issue).
There are some exceptions, though. Training Thief levels will give you some alternate attacks (precision, for example), while training as a Warrior will give you power attack. For that reason, training one level in each is actually a reasonably good idea.
Yaweee said:
So much makes sense now! I really should read the instruction manual. I haven't read an instruction manual in, oh, I don't know, 10 years? hahaha, most games aren't hard to figure out. This one is a lil' different. Thanks for explaining
I need to go see what my guys are wearing.So, I beat it. 36 hours on the save file, around level 16 with Secondary Classes, nobody had more than 100 HP. The last boss went down in two turns (he only has 200 HP), and it took that long only because I was out of good spells with my secondary mage.
I confess that I got help from a forum at four distinct parts:
-First to unlock the elevator, as I walking up to the fourth and fifth floors was getting tedious to the point of stopping the game permanently.
-Second time when I got stuck on 5F when I missed mandatory secret areas.
-Third when I got screwed by arbitrary quest triggers and something didn't register the first time I did.
-Fourth at the very, very end of the game when I had genuinely explored the rest of the world and had no idea what the game was talking about.
All-in-all, I liked it. I'll do a more detailed post later. I don't know whether I'll do the bonus content, or do a solo game instead. I'm very curious what percent of people that can put up with the interface shit will eventually stop over the 'puzzles'.
I confess that I got help from a forum at four distinct parts:
-First to unlock the elevator, as I walking up to the fourth and fifth floors was getting tedious to the point of stopping the game permanently.
-Second time when I got stuck on 5F when I missed mandatory secret areas.
-Third when I got screwed by arbitrary quest triggers and something didn't register the first time I did.
-Fourth at the very, very end of the game when I had genuinely explored the rest of the world and had no idea what the game was talking about.
All-in-all, I liked it. I'll do a more detailed post later. I don't know whether I'll do the bonus content, or do a solo game instead. I'm very curious what percent of people that can put up with the interface shit will eventually stop over the 'puzzles'.
ElectricThunder
Member
My copy arrived this weekend but I've not been able to get to playing it yet...nor popping the CD in to have a listen. Sooner than later I hope...
Good to hear there's apparently some kinda bonus content though! It really will be a treat to have this and then Class of Heroes for PSP hitting in relatively quick succession.
Good to hear there's apparently some kinda bonus content though! It really will be a treat to have this and then Class of Heroes for PSP hitting in relatively quick succession.
Good to hear that you liked it, and that there's more after the credits.
I'm not done with the game, but now that my initial curiosity is sated, I have slowed the pace down a bit as I continue to finish up games I started before Dark Spire came out.
Looking forward to hearing your more detailed post-play impressions.
I'm not done with the game, but now that my initial curiosity is sated, I have slowed the pace down a bit as I continue to finish up games I started before Dark Spire came out.
Looking forward to hearing your more detailed post-play impressions.
jaundicejuice
Member
I have yet to see a single copy of this game in a brick and mortar anywhere. Is Atlus getting stingy with the limited print runs or are retailers, specifically EB Canada, not ordering copies of Atlus games unless there's a pre-order? Legend of Ys: Books 1 & 2 was pretty damned impossible to find too, pretty much all recent Atlus DS releases have been. Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon finally sunk its claws into me so I'm not exactly jonesing for a DS game to play right now but given the similarity to Etrian Odyssey and the eventual rarity I kinda want to track a copy down. Worse comes to worse I can always order it off of Amazon I suppose.
This recent batch of difficult to track down Atlus games made me pre-order Devil Summoner 2.
This recent batch of difficult to track down Atlus games made me pre-order Devil Summoner 2.
jaundicejuice said:
That's how it's always been for games from small developers. They tend to print only what gets ordered, and stores will only buy what they can expect to sell at full price. For what it's worth, though, not only did I get my game off the shelf at a Gamestop a few days after release, the last time I was in the store there was an unsold gutted copy on the shelf.
For anybody wondering what postgame content there is:
An extra floor, and a few extra quests, some of which involve the previous floors.
Mejilan said:
A total of ten full-grid maps (7 regular floors, plus basement, bonus, and the training area (which holds the secondary class quests)
Since every single square is used, it turns out to be pretty damn close to the EO2's total size. I don't have calculations handy, but the total number of squares must be within 30% or so.
jaundicejuice
Member
Yaweee said:
It just seemed like for the last few years I didn't have to scramble and pre-order every Atlus game. I still see numerous copies of Persona 3, FES, Persona 4, Odin Sphere, Rondo of Swords, the Izuna's and the Etrian Odyssey's floating around in various stores. I thought that would have been the case with Ys or Dark Spire.
jaundicejuice said:
When I picked up my copy at EB Canada they only had two - the one I preordered and the gutted copy on the wall. Someone may have bought a copy before I got there, but it was release day so that would likely only be one copy, and I don't think there's a big dungeon crawl fanbase in my area. I think this game is rare even for Atlus.
rainking187
Member
jaundicejuice said:
Maybe it's just Canada, but the first Izuna, the first Etrian Odyssey and the original Persona 3 are all still very rare in the US. And aside from Odin Sphere and FES I never see any Atlus titles in b&ms besides GameStops/EBGames. I don't think I've even seen Persona 4 in a store besides GameStop and that's probably their highest profile title in a while.
Also just beat the main game, and liked it overall despite (or maybe partially because of?) some really obscure uses of items for the solutions to some of the puzzles.
It says something that it manages to be mostly challenging despite letting you save anywhere, it only mostly started getting easy because 3 of my 4 characters (my wizard, druid, and samurai) eventually had access to the 'Extinctio' spell... and even then groups of 6 or more venom dragons would occasionally ambush me and wipe out the party with breath attacks before round 1 -_-.
...But not sure if I feel like playing the bonus content all that much... loses a lot once theres nothing neat to gain by advancing levels other than HP (I have all the spells I can get already).
Anyhow, probably mess around for a bit longer, and then back to the JPN version of Class of Heroes ^^ (Ken to Mahou to Gakuen Mono / 'totomono')
It says something that it manages to be mostly challenging despite letting you save anywhere, it only mostly started getting easy because 3 of my 4 characters (my wizard, druid, and samurai) eventually had access to the 'Extinctio' spell... and even then groups of 6 or more venom dragons would occasionally ambush me and wipe out the party with breath attacks before round 1 -_-.
...But not sure if I feel like playing the bonus content all that much... loses a lot once theres nothing neat to gain by advancing levels other than HP (I have all the spells I can get already).
Anyhow, probably mess around for a bit longer, and then back to the JPN version of Class of Heroes ^^ (Ken to Mahou to Gakuen Mono / 'totomono')
TurtleSnatcher
Member
Got a free copy of this at work. I will need to try it out.
Phthisis said:
Edit: I moved my reply over to the Class of Heroes topic.
To add-on to my Dark Spire comments from earlier:
Well, I did start playing a bit of Dark Spire's extra content, and for a quick note/opinion about that part:
Man, that bright-white dungeon is painful to look at @_@. Also, theres a bunch of enemies uses affect-everyone-in-my-party breath attacks now, as opposed to mainly Venom Dragons in the main game... Now its a battle of my Extinctios against their breath attacks most battles. Probably need to up the dex of some of my characters to more consistently strike first
ElectricThunder
Member
NichM said in the other topic that the menus and interface for Class of Heroes, along with bugs, were being worked with for the US release...so at least some of your woes might well be alleviated Wehrwolf. Be sure to keep us in the loop with the PSP sequel that'll be coming out likewise pretty soon in Japan.
In my mind, by my reckoning, Dark Spire is essentially something akin to early day Wizardry versus Class of Heroes aking to latter day Wizardry. Both good things but differing tastes on the whole.
In my mind, by my reckoning, Dark Spire is essentially something akin to early day Wizardry versus Class of Heroes aking to latter day Wizardry. Both good things but differing tastes on the whole.
Okay, I started a solo game in classic mode.
I went with a Dwarven Warrior with 16str, 16vit, but then realized I couldn't become a thief with my stats and had to reroll. My general strategy is going to be
-Warrior up to 11 (I really don't want to have to deal with the Level 12 Oaths)
-Meanwhile, get a few levels in Thief and Priest. Unequip everything when I need to access their abilities.
-Go heavy mage once I can get Susurrus Fatalis.
-Switch to Samurai (Warrior/Mage), focusing on the mage side. Extinctio is really my only hope of soloing the last boss.
Is Angel Wing the only spell to exit the dungeon? How are the Lawful exclusive spells?
The extra 100 EP each subsequent Class Level takes is going to kill me, but 4x the EP will hopefully balance it out.
I'm thinking of rerolling again. What are the requirements for the gambling skill? Gaining an extra five-thousand EP from that quest is worth it at this point.
The classic mode text is much easier to read. I can actually make out everything that happens in battle even when tapping A through it all.
I went with a Dwarven Warrior with 16str, 16vit, but then realized I couldn't become a thief with my stats and had to reroll. My general strategy is going to be
-Warrior up to 11 (I really don't want to have to deal with the Level 12 Oaths)
-Meanwhile, get a few levels in Thief and Priest. Unequip everything when I need to access their abilities.
-Go heavy mage once I can get Susurrus Fatalis.
-Switch to Samurai (Warrior/Mage), focusing on the mage side. Extinctio is really my only hope of soloing the last boss.
Is Angel Wing the only spell to exit the dungeon? How are the Lawful exclusive spells?
The extra 100 EP each subsequent Class Level takes is going to kill me, but 4x the EP will hopefully balance it out.
I'm thinking of rerolling again. What are the requirements for the gambling skill? Gaining an extra five-thousand EP from that quest is worth it at this point.
The classic mode text is much easier to read. I can actually make out everything that happens in battle even when tapping A through it all.
Yaweee said:
Pretty sure Angel Wing is the only teleport out spell, though I don't know what the arcane 6th level 'neutral' exclusive spell does. I once got a Return Ring, but it broke the 1st time I used it, I don't know if its ever reusable (or if I just accidentally destroyed it)
According to the JPN Wiki for the game, the gambling skill requirements are level 3, 13 Int and 13 Dex.
You tap A? I hold A through the combats..
Rummy Bunnz
Member
I have my warrior/priest at level 10 and he meets all the supposed prerequisites for Military Intelligence but I still can't buy the fucking skill. He needs it to become a paladin. UGH. I'm gonna have to cheat and boost his stats just to see what the real prereqs are.
Dig this game so much until I hit these stupid character building roadblocks.
Dig this game so much until I hit these stupid character building roadblocks.
LiveFromKyoto
Member
So if a person were to choose just one, what's honestly better, this or Etrian Odyssey II?
Rummy Bunnz
Member
I'd say EO2, even though I've played more of the Dark Spire than EO2. Beat EO1 and its bonus dungeon though. EO is friendlier and more polished, but they're actually very different games and if you enjoy the genre they're both worth playing eventually.
I thought the Dark Spire would just be a junky cash-in but it's pretty much a new Wizardry game. A really good new Wizardry game. EO has more flash and twists on the genre...but it's been so long since I've seen a brand new first person RPG that sticks so close to the pen 'n paper roots that Dark Spire almost seems fresher. Does that make sense?
I thought the Dark Spire would just be a junky cash-in but it's pretty much a new Wizardry game. A really good new Wizardry game. EO has more flash and twists on the genre...but it's been so long since I've seen a brand new first person RPG that sticks so close to the pen 'n paper roots that Dark Spire almost seems fresher. Does that make sense?
tetrisgrammaton
Member
so THATS the solution to the statue on the first floor???
#$%$#&$@#%&*$@#$@#!$
#$%$#&$@#%&*$@#$@#!$
LiveFromKyoto
Member
Rummy Bunnz said:
Yeah, perfect sense. What you're saying is actually what attracts me to Spire. All the reviews say what you did - that EO2 has more twists and is a bit slicker, and it consistently gets higher scores. But really, the style of Spire is more interesting to me, I'm not really in the mood for a candy coloured jrpg at the moment. I was into D&D and Fighting Fantasy books etc. as a little kid, I got flashbacks looking at this game though I only played the NES/SNES versions of Wizardry.
Hobbun said:
No i mean the initial roll when you create him...first time was my fault I guess and maybe I should try using the formation of one in front,3 in the back but he has a dagger and can't use it in the back row,i'm not going to give a thief a staff hehe... he is useful for traps and all as well.I'm still early on so restarting is not that bad until i get better stas for him I guess.
Thiefs are not made to sit in the front row. No amount of initial stats will compensate for their lack of heavy armor or good shields. Get a bow and plop him in the back row (or, you can attack from the back row with a melee weapon every other turn if you use the Defend->Hide command.
straydog1980
Banned
Yaweee said:
yeah my thief is in the back with a long bow.
jaundicejuice
Member
I was out and about today, stopped off at a nearby EB and managed to snag the last copy of the Dark Spire they had. It was the display copy but I'm not going to complain, I got the box, I got the bonus CD but most importantly I got the game. It was one of two copies they received that afternoon. I love scoring a game like that.
I probably won't be playing it for a while, gotta finish off Fire Emblem first, expect to see this thread bumped up in a couple of weeks.
I probably won't be playing it for a while, gotta finish off Fire Emblem first, expect to see this thread bumped up in a couple of weeks.
ElectricThunder
Member
jaundicejuice said:
Congrats on the lucky score jaundicejuice. I know I'll laugh pretty hard at myself if my backlog with this gets to where both this and Class of Heroes occupy it at the same time...
Okay, despite what I said before, I did actually complete all the post-game stuff for Dark Spire after all.
Without getting into spoilers, I'll just mention that it's really 'a few more hours of gameplay', which, while quite challenging, is not the 'bonus material for masochists' that a lot of RPG's post-game content is. Etrian Odyssey, while it had more challenging post game content, stopped being fun and turned into a chore with the designs of those last levels. Dark Spire's was a lot more enjoyable, but isn't quite the badge of honor if you get through it.
Without getting into spoilers, I'll just mention that it's really 'a few more hours of gameplay', which, while quite challenging, is not the 'bonus material for masochists' that a lot of RPG's post-game content is. Etrian Odyssey, while it had more challenging post game content, stopped being fun and turned into a chore with the designs of those last levels. Dark Spire's was a lot more enjoyable, but isn't quite the badge of honor if you get through it.
ElectricThunder
Member
Wehrwolf said:
Sounds about like what I was expecting. Taking weird/challenge parties through it will probably add that extra spice same as through the rest of the game.
I can't believe how much I hated this game when I first started. Now I love it, but the map feature is a little annoyed. Just show me where I am on the damn map w/o using a spell. I have to really focus on what I'm doing, bc if I dont pay attention, it'll take me a minute or two to realize where the heck I am. Btw, life is so much easier with that mage group attack spell.
jaundicejuice
Member
Joe Shlabotnik said:
Thank you! I was kind of confused about that, the game hadn't explained AC and it wasn't listed in the manual outside of explaining that the AC on your screen stood for Armor Class. I was confused about the lowering of AC because you have spells that can lower your own and the enemies AC. So now I'm only partially confused.
Is there no item like the warp wire? If not that's kind of D: Is there a spell for a hasty retreat I can learn later on?
jaundicejuice said:
A Rank 5 or 6 Priest spell (Angel Wing) teleports you back to town. Return Rings drop from enemies, but not until way later in the game.
Various floors have shortcuts down to get back down in the meantime, but getting back up is a giant pain in the ass (especially with how 2F is shaped).
There's an elevator you can unlock once you reach the fourth floor, but it isn't trivial and only goes up to the fourth.
Rummy Bunnz
Member
That sounds great. I was worried it would be like EO. Not in the mood for that again! A relatively smooth ride sounds good to me.Wehrwolf said:
tetrisgrammaton
Member
Yaweee said:
Thanks anyway. My characters were all level 4 before I figured that out. It never occurred to me to try the obvious solution. At least now I'm coasting.
A lot of people were interested in weapon comparisons, so here's some information taken from a Gamefaqs thread.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=945038&topic=49204591
***************
Hit Count
The base number of hits you get when you attack is dependent on your class levels. The number of hits each class gets is as follows:
...Warrior: [Lvl / 5]
...Thief: [Lvl / 10]
...Priest/Mage: [Lvl / 15]
...Ninja: [Lvl / 4]
...Samurai/Paladin: [Lvl / 5]
...Ranger: [Lvl / 6]
...Wizard: [Lvl / 8]
...Druid: [Lvl / 10]
This information may be incorrect, but it's my current understanding of the game's data.
bonus hits, damage, name
1, 1d8, Claymore
1, 1d10+5, Fireblade
2, 1d10+5, Nodachi
2, 1d10+5, Emerald Sword
4, 5d10, Kamikaze
4, 1d10+10, Tyrhung
0, 1d6, Longsword
0, 1d8, Cutlass
1, 1d8+2, Shotel
0, 1d10, Katana
1, 3d4+5, Kogarasu Maru
4, 3d6+5, Gekkou
2, 2d4+4, Poison Blade
2, 3d6+10, Brightsaber
4, 1d4+8, Breguet's Sword
2, 1d6, Estoc
3, 2d4, Rapier
2, 2d4, Spirit Sword
5, 3d8+5, Sylph Blade
0, 1d4, Dagger
1, 1d4+2, Kris
2, 1d3, Chaos Dagger
1, 1d6+2, Harakiri Dagger
0, 1d8, Handaxe
0, 2d6, Battleaxe
2, 2d8, Berserker Axe
3, 3d10, Golden Axe
0, 1d4, Shortbow
1, 1d8, Longbow
0, 1d6, Crossbow
0, 1d6, Assassin Bow
1, 1d10+5, Lightning Bow
0, 1d8, Heavy Crossbow
2, 2d6+10, Phoenix Bow
0, 1d6, Spear
1, 1d8, Halberd
0, 1d10, Naginata
0, 2d8, Wooden Pilum
2, 2d4+10, Dragon Lance
0, 1d4, Quarterstaff
0, 1d4, Staff of Harmony
0, 1d6, Flail
0, 1d8, Warhammer
1, 1d3, Jitte
0, 1d4, Magic Wand
2, 3d10, Giant Hammer
4, 2d8+5, Saint's Mace
*****************
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=945038&topic=49204591
***************
Hit Count
The base number of hits you get when you attack is dependent on your class levels. The number of hits each class gets is as follows:
...Warrior: [Lvl / 5]
...Thief: [Lvl / 10]
...Priest/Mage: [Lvl / 15]
...Ninja: [Lvl / 4]
...Samurai/Paladin: [Lvl / 5]
...Ranger: [Lvl / 6]
...Wizard: [Lvl / 8]
...Druid: [Lvl / 10]
This information may be incorrect, but it's my current understanding of the game's data.
bonus hits, damage, name
1, 1d8, Claymore
1, 1d10+5, Fireblade
2, 1d10+5, Nodachi
2, 1d10+5, Emerald Sword
4, 5d10, Kamikaze
4, 1d10+10, Tyrhung
0, 1d6, Longsword
0, 1d8, Cutlass
1, 1d8+2, Shotel
0, 1d10, Katana
1, 3d4+5, Kogarasu Maru
4, 3d6+5, Gekkou
2, 2d4+4, Poison Blade
2, 3d6+10, Brightsaber
4, 1d4+8, Breguet's Sword
2, 1d6, Estoc
3, 2d4, Rapier
2, 2d4, Spirit Sword
5, 3d8+5, Sylph Blade
0, 1d4, Dagger
1, 1d4+2, Kris
2, 1d3, Chaos Dagger
1, 1d6+2, Harakiri Dagger
0, 1d8, Handaxe
0, 2d6, Battleaxe
2, 2d8, Berserker Axe
3, 3d10, Golden Axe
0, 1d4, Shortbow
1, 1d8, Longbow
0, 1d6, Crossbow
0, 1d6, Assassin Bow
1, 1d10+5, Lightning Bow
0, 1d8, Heavy Crossbow
2, 2d6+10, Phoenix Bow
0, 1d6, Spear
1, 1d8, Halberd
0, 1d10, Naginata
0, 2d8, Wooden Pilum
2, 2d4+10, Dragon Lance
0, 1d4, Quarterstaff
0, 1d4, Staff of Harmony
0, 1d6, Flail
0, 1d8, Warhammer
1, 1d3, Jitte
0, 1d4, Magic Wand
2, 3d10, Giant Hammer
4, 2d8+5, Saint's Mace
*****************
jaundicejuice
Member
I'm kind of enjoying The Dark Spire but it's just so weirdly obtuse. There's so much pertinent information that's not easily accessible or clearly conveyed and simple actions that are strangely mapped. Why can't I easily find out how much money I have? Why can't I easily equip weapons and armor? Why do equipped items take up slots in my limited inventory? There's other little things that bother me as well, like a lack of character icons. It would just be nice if I could assign any kind of visual reference to the characters I've created like you can in Etrian Odyssey or the upcoming 7th Dragon. I love the overall aesthetic of The Dark Spire, I appreciate a challenging experience (even if I do whinge a bit after having my nuts kicked in), the music is great, I like the combat system with its branching abilities, I love me some old time-y dungeon crawling but like White Man said earlier it's the death of a thousand cuts with this game.
If 7th Dragon or another Etrian Odyssey were to be released tomorrow I'd probably drop this in a heartbeat, as it is I think I'll soldier on through it for a while and see where the experience takes me. I hope The Dark Spire grows on me but I think I'm just too used to the modern amenities introduced by the Etrian Odyssey's.
If 7th Dragon or another Etrian Odyssey were to be released tomorrow I'd probably drop this in a heartbeat, as it is I think I'll soldier on through it for a while and see where the experience takes me. I hope The Dark Spire grows on me but I think I'm just too used to the modern amenities introduced by the Etrian Odyssey's.
I'm in love with this game. It doesn't have the polish that EO I/II have, but I find it so much more addictive. It's probably something to do with the art style and general theme being much more interesting (and familiar to me as an old D&D nerd). Plus it's just so deliberately brutal at times; oh, did you fail to disarm that trap? Well YOU'RE DEAD, YOU FUCKING EXPLODED, HOW'S THAT WORKING OUT FOR YOU. Can't count how many times I've dragged my bloody thief out of a dungeon and not once has a monster ever taken his life (and he's been in the front row the whole time).
Question for those who've finished or have progressed much farther than myself; I was sort of planning to go Paladin/Ninja/Wizard/Druid, but I am not sure if I really want two thief sub-classes in the same party. Mind you, given how frequently my thief has his face blasted off by treasure chests it might be nice to have the back-up, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to have my thief be the one to go Wizard and turn my Mage into a second Druid. I do like having my Thief up front at the moment; he's proven to be very resilient so far, and easily hides when he does get smacked around on occasion, but I wonder if his damage as a Ninja will prove to be worth it later on.
Question for those who've finished or have progressed much farther than myself; I was sort of planning to go Paladin/Ninja/Wizard/Druid, but I am not sure if I really want two thief sub-classes in the same party. Mind you, given how frequently my thief has his face blasted off by treasure chests it might be nice to have the back-up, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to have my thief be the one to go Wizard and turn my Mage into a second Druid. I do like having my Thief up front at the moment; he's proven to be very resilient so far, and easily hides when he does get smacked around on occasion, but I wonder if his damage as a Ninja will prove to be worth it later on.