AdmiralPain
Banned
Opinions. Market realities often prove different. Even if you think that huma is without a doubt superior, it wouldn't be the first time in history that an inferior technology prevailed due to market conditions.
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The Economist: "The newest games consoles look underpowered and similar to PCs."
- Thread starter antipode
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Opinions. Market realities often prove different. Even if you think that huma is without a doubt superior, it wouldn't be the first time in history that an inferior technology prevailed due to market conditions.
Manmademan
Member
consoles have been superior to PCs at launch for every generation until the x360 launched. and even then it took a REALLY powerful system most could not afford.
this time around pcs seem to be more powerful on paper, but there are a LOT of efficiency improvements built into the ps4 that allow it to get a lot closer to theoretical performance than a pc will.
There's no real need for the "but" there. These consoles are great for their wattage/price, but it's not just on "paper" that they've fallen far behind the top end.
Those are simply the realities of designing a small set top box with a fixed cost and small losses vs what's available in larger cased PCs with whichever budget you choose.
Manmademan
Member
very true. also consider that decent 3D performance was achieved on console with the ps1 in 1994. PC couldn't match the polygon performance of ps1 launch games for about 2 years.
Actually, they'd have to pay me to build a pc, DAT PLAYSTATION VALUE!
Manmademan
Member
not arguing that. my point with the comment was that publications like the economist are looking at specs and concluding a mid to low end pc matches
a ps4, since it's "only" 1.8TFlops.
this isn't the case at all. you will need a system much stronger than that to match the kinds of games the ps4 is capable of.
Mainly a consequence of being haunted by the ghosts of ancient display standards, lack of useful APIs like DirectX, and being limited to software rendering because dedicated video hardware wasn't widespread.
Well... that's a very subjective and equally unfounded thing to say.
Manmademan
Member
there are lots of reasons for that, even beyond what you stated. the ps1 was the only console that actually prioritized 3d performance to that degree. it was actually Pretty revolutionary.
common assumption at the time was that "multimedia" was the future of gaming. The 3D0, CDi, and jag CD were designed as 2D systems, and even the saturns 3d capabilities were bolted on last minute after sega got wind of where Sony was going.
Manmademan
Member
not at all. the ps4 is able to dedicate far more memory to the gpu than anything outside of VERY high end graphics cards. (about 5 gigs or so.)
hUMA means splitting memory into gpu memory
and cpu memory is no longer necessary. everything the CPU does is immediately visible to the gpu and vice versa.
the architecture means all titles will be taking advantage of gpgpu for advanced physics. look at what housemarque has done with voxels on resogun, a low budget Indie title.
you cannot match a ps4 with a $500 pc. there have been many threads trying to prove this and they all end up getting dismantled fairly quickly.
dragonelite
Member
How do you want to quantify that?
Hell if i need to do some research there is no way in hell my teachers wouldn't take my word on it if i didn't provide benchmarks and code so they can run it themselves.
That is not how it works in the real world.
No, we didn't talk anything about price and nobody mentioned anything about price (so we can discount that merry-go-round and goalpost movement right now). You said "you will need a system much stronger than that to match the kinds of games the ps4 is capable of." and it is an extremely subjective and equally unfounded statement. Even with the additional efficiencies that huma brings, that is still true of that statement and isn't something that can be quantified meaningfully. Comparisons with measurable power can, hence the article.
And I don't think we'll see any studios allocate 5gb to video memory and then have zero for everything else (or play with the rest in the variable pool and deal with that headache). The truth of the matter is that game code requires quite a bit of memory as well, not just stuff that's going into the visuals. Some kind of halfway split or approximately thereabouts sounds like a reasonable expectation here.
Manmademan
Member
read what I wrote again. the gpu has the ABILITY to address over 5gigs of memory at once. your average 2 TF card does not. whether devs use it all is up to them.
the ps4 has 8 gigs, with an unknown amount reserved for the OS, but hUMA means splitting that memory into "cpu pool" and "gpu pool" is no longer necessary. each has complete access. it's an efficiency that exists within the ps4 that does not within a midrange pc.
Just not true. The GTX 670/760/770 + many more mid range cards have 4gb. These are not high end cards, let alone "VERY" high end as you say. A brand spanking new GTX 760 with 4gb can be yours for under $300. Plus on top of this one an easily throw virtually unlimited RAM at any game, although even 8 gb is total overkill.
lol, so much misinformation in this thread.
Manmademan
Member
so 4 gigs is higher than 5.5 now?
AdmiralPain
Banned
This isn't school. In the real world, people rely on expert opinion stripped of proof out of necessity. That's why we go to doctors, mechanics, accountants, etc. Nobody knows everything. Of course the problem there is people tend to seek out the answers that fit with their preconceived notions.
So when I quote an expert like Lottes
I have to hope the guy knows what he is talking about and that I'm not reading what I want into it. But I'm open to contrary opinions if someone can point me in the direction of a contrary opinion from a named respected expert and not forum conjecture.
AdmiralPain
Banned
How do you know this? How much stronger?
You said "about 5 gigs or so" now it has to be higher than 5.5 gb? Can you get your story straight?
"About 5 gigs or so" is +/- 5 gb. We know that no game is going to use 5 gb of video, so naturally I assumed you meant under 5 gb.
We do know what's being reserved, and when I say "split" I don't mean as some arbitrary number as it's done on PC. Just that you still need certain amounts of memory for certain things, and you're not going to get all 5gb going toward visuals. Guerilla has a nice slide that you can consult in this regard.
A even a lowly 3GB 7970 and 8+GB of system ram may not be as efficient (obviously) but it would provide for far more raw power and more overall memory in many situations. Get into the 4GB or higher GPUs and you're certainly surpassing what you've got available to dedicate to on screen GPU output.
And ffs not more quotes with "to the metal"...
You always have a benefit when the target platform of your application is fixed and has less abstraction between you and the hardware. Resources become more deterministic due to less contention from other processes competing for them. Your entire architecture and application design ("gameplay") can be optimized towards the platform's specific performance figures, for instance, by designing the hot spots of your code such that they can be processed within the limits of instruction and data caches. You can take advantage of platform-specific extensions. Etc.
"Coding to the metal" is a real thing.
The extend of that benefit is of course not easily quantifiable. It is not trivial, but it is no magic either.
Manmademan
Member
this is known because these discussions have been going on since the ps3 specs were revealed. there are 20 plus page threads on the advantages of gpgpu computing, gddr5 ram, hUMA, low level access, and the advantages of a single target platform.
this stuff has been discussed to death. the advantage is there over a pc with equivalent specs. that is, about a 2TF gpu. HOW MUCH is up in the air, since devs havent yet shown what they can do.
AdmiralPain
Banned
Never heard those quotes before, thanks! My PC has a 7970 and a Sandy Bridge Core i7, should I expect the PS4 to outperform it then?
dcx4610
Member
It's true that consoles are just playing catch up to PCs but that's also a good thing. Consoles are going to be closer than ever to the power of PCs this generation and at a $400/500 price tag respectively.
Near-PC quality graphics at affordable price shouldn't be considered a negative.
Near-PC quality graphics at affordable price shouldn't be considered a negative.
That's a great quote to use since most people will have no idea what it means exactly (i.e. what a drawcall is, and what its overhead implies), and will just remember the large numbers.
You could get Battlefield 4 on PC and PS4 and try it.
Do you really think your PC is going to run BF4 at sub 1080p like the PS4 will?
Yes, launch games are always indicative of a new consoles capabilities. Anyone should realise that the new consoles on traditionally coded titles won't compare really, but it's the new possibilities the hardware will allow we should be interested in.
AdmiralPain
Banned
If the previous quotes are accurate, obviously yes. If my PC outperforms the PS4 then there's something wrong with those numbers.
it's called clarity.
He's being facetious, for obvious reasons.
I don't think that's true that gen, it seems like the tech is pretty known this time. If they struggle to bring BF4 @1080p on the console, that is definitly a sign of things to come.
Nymphae
Banned
It's the same old story. Of course PC games have always looked better, and likely always will. They make a decent point about this console gen not bringing that new shocking graphical punch, instead playing more catch up to where PC has been.
But at the end of the day I think things will shake out the same way they always do. Most people find building a gaming PC far too daunting and too expensive (even upgrading a machine you have for gaming is not all that easy to someone who has never opened their comptuer case before). And most of those same people have never experience high end PC graphics probably, and are probably quite happy with the next gen console tech.
But at the end of the day I think things will shake out the same way they always do. Most people find building a gaming PC far too daunting and too expensive (even upgrading a machine you have for gaming is not all that easy to someone who has never opened their comptuer case before). And most of those same people have never experience high end PC graphics probably, and are probably quite happy with the next gen console tech.
Yeah, the real world drawcall hit on PC is wildly overblown.
th4tguy
Member
And if they stick with x86 architecture, we could see a more streamlined transition between hardware gens like we see with i- devices.
AdmiralPain
Banned
True, backwards compatibility should be a given after this gen.
Yeah, I bet after seeing how they can sell the same game multiple times with all the HD remixes, backwards compatibility is huge on their minds. Now, they they're actually thinking that it's stupid and they should never try it ever again, but their stance really is a given.
AdmiralPain
Banned
Oh shit, I didn't think of that. Oh shit 
Green Yoshi
Member
Xbox 360 and PS3 were very powerful machines at launch, because you needed power for HD-gaming.
But the PS2, Gamecube, Xbox 1, Dreamcast and N64 were all much weaker than the PCs, that were sold at that time. So why is everybody so disappointed that PS4 and XBO are not faster than modern PCs?
But the PS2, Gamecube, Xbox 1, Dreamcast and N64 were all much weaker than the PCs, that were sold at that time. So why is everybody so disappointed that PS4 and XBO are not faster than modern PCs?
dragonelite
Member
Because this gen outlasted the normal 5 year cycle some people expected a bit more performance.
Salvor.Hardin
Banned
Edit Double post
Salvor.Hardin
Banned
Wasn't the original Xbox as good as a top line gaming pc when it was released? Maybe it's rose tinted glasses but I don't remember seeing anything half as good as Halo CE on the pc when it released on the Xbox.
How do you know what's being reserved? Are we going by old slides and speculation again?
Fixed it for you.