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[TurtleSnatcher]

Can you work excel?

Can you order take out?

Can you say no?

Congrats! You are now qualified to be a game producer!

Haha.

Our producers are great! People really get along with them and they communicate well with their teams. They do have to swoop in and become the bad guy every once in a while especially when the project starts winding down as they are the ones who close the door to get the trip started through cert phases etc.

If you want to get into QA that badly, I'd say start familiarizing yourself with agile+scrumm and download a 30-day trial of Atlassian's JIRA+Greenhopper and learn the heck out of it. They're pretty important things to have if you want to get in with QA today. At the worst, you won't use any of what I've listed (because some studios don't do agile or track issues with JIRA), but at best, you'll use all of it and be prepared even though they might want someone with QA experience.

Furthermore, these are concepts and software suites that have use beyond the video game industry. A lot of software developers will use stuff like agile project management and Atlassian software.

Great advice.. Especially JIRA items.

 

[MadNinjaZero]

Just curious, do you have an example of a publisher that uses JIRA? I worked on a project that used Bugzilla in the past, which apparently migrates easily into JIRA. It's been a few years since I worked with QA, but I haven't heard of that software before. I'm most familiar with DevTrack, which seems to be the bug tracking software of choice for THQ and EA at least.

There are studios in the EA umbrella that used Jira but I do not know if they continue to do so as I have not worked there since 2010 but had exposure to one such product from a studio where the principal tracking was handled using it. It was unusual due the investment in TechExcel products that I had seen.

Jira is much like DevTrack but I do not believe (at least not in the cases where I've seen it used) it has has a client. It was web only.

 

[Vilam]

I don't particularly want to be QA, I don't think there are many people who do and I mentioned before I'd very much like to be a CM or something similar. That said, no matter how bad the job may seem it's not an opportunity I would pass up were it feasible. My biggest current roadblocks are networking and location.

For what it's worth, many people I've known on our CM team had a background in QA. Just don't be the guy who goes into QA making it overly obvious it's a stepping stone that you want to get out of as soon as possible.

If you're interested in networking, try getting involved in mod development. It isn't uncommon to run into people working in the industry who also do mod work as their passion project in their spare time. They're generally happy to throw a recommendation or reference someone's way for an application.

 

[MadNinjaZero]

Is the QA to Senior QA/lead QA to associate producer/producer a feasible route?

Such was the road that I took across about 3 different studios but as mentioned by others it can be a difficult road due to studio structure and culture.

And if this is the road you choose to take; don't be discouraged!

I found that the time spent in test was invaluable to becoming intimately familiar with the software development cycle and methodology as well as cross-discipline communication, task/time management and gaining understanding of the fundamentals of risk assessment which have benefited me in the role of producer.

 

[GrizzNKev]

For what it's worth, many people I've known on our CM team had a background in QA. Just don't be the guy who goes into QA making it overly obvious it's a stepping stone that you want to get out of as soon as possible.

If you're interested in networking, try getting involved in mod development. It isn't uncommon to run into people working in the industry who also do mod work as their passion project in their spare time. They're generally happy to throw a recommendation or reference someone's way for an application.

I'd never look at a job as unimportant, no matter what it was. Even if it is a stepping stone in reality, I wouldn't learn anything if I didn't take it seriously. If I acted like I wanted out, I'd be dropped, not promoted. The industry is way too hard to approach from the outside to make a mistake like that.

 

[Cake Boss]

Great thread and great info.

I just finished my Business admin Marketing degree and trying to figure out what to do with it. Been working in the government marketing department as a student for 6 months and now with all the cuts I only have 3 months left in the contract and figuring out what to do.

Just like the OP I would love in the future to be a producer or in the marketing department of this industry. Been looking at some job postings online and the only entry level jobs in this industry seems to be testers (Canada). Does that seem like a decent job to get some experience from and to get your foot in the door kind of thing.

 

[Sqorgar]

On a side note, I'm detecting a hint of arrogance in this thread from types who feel they're better than producers and resent that producers make decisions that impact their work.

Me! It's me! He's talking about me!

All I'm saying is that middle management is the side effect of a complex organizational hierarchy. It doesn't do anything specifically except justify its own existence (as systems grow, they develop the need for elements that exist to supply the system, and not for the purposes of what the system was created for - producers don't make games, they make the system that makes games). It could easily be replaced by something simpler and specific (or even multiple somethings simpler) that would yield a superior result.

Since you are a producer, I'm going to have to assume that you would disagree with the statement, "producers are bullshit".

I would also think a setup where the ones creating the work are also the ones making decisions about the work would have difficulty decoupling the emotional attachment with their work to make rational decisions for the product's success.

I don't understand this statement. Do producers not have emotional attachment to their work too?

I am most definitely willing to give up my entire life to break in.

Do NOT do this. The game industry has an absurdly high burnout rate. There is a very, very high chance that you will leave the game industry within your first five years. And if you don't leave, expect to move around a lot, taking jobs with little to no job security, and have extremely limited upward mobility. It is entirely possible that you will end up an associate producer for 5 years in a job you absolutely despise, get laid off, and be unable to find another position (there's always someone younger than you that will work longer for less money - don't think your skills are that highly valued)

Don't think it can happen to you? Neither did I. Nobody loves games more than me. I lasted six months.

Do you like to have leisure time to do things like watch movies, read books, or *gasp*, play video games? Do you like to go home at the end of the day to your loving wife? Do you want to have a family? Do you want to grow roots? Do you like to get off holidays like Christmas or Sunday? Do you like to work 40 weeks instead of working 80 hour weeks for three years straight? Do you like to get paid overtime for working that much? Do you like having a job that you know will be waiting for you in two weeks or know that the people making decisions are doing it in your best interest? Do you like to have your input listened to? Do you like to be respected and valued as a person?

Because that's not the game industry. Say goodbye to weekends, relationships, family, job security, happiness, and comfort.

I'm not going to be able to persuade anyone to not go into the game industry. Nobody could've have convinced me when I wanted to. All I'm saying is eat to live, don't live to eat. Don't throw away your life to get into the game industry. Have an exit strategy.

 

[Eggo]

Do NOT do this. The game industry has an absurdly high burnout rate. There is a very, very high chance that you will leave the game industry within your first five years. And if you don't leave, expect to move around a lot, taking jobs with little to no job security, and have extremely limited upward mobility. It is entirely possible that you will end up an associate producer for 5 years in a job you absolutely despise, get laid off, and be unable to find another position (there's always someone younger than you that will work longer for less money - don't think your skills are that highly valued)

Don't think it can happen to you? Neither did I. Nobody loves games more than me. I lasted six months.

Do you like to have leisure time to do things like watch movies, read books, or *gasp*, play video games? Do you like to go home at the end of the day to your loving wife? Do you want to have a family? Do you want to grow roots? Do you like to get off holidays like Christmas or Sunday? Do you like to work 40 weeks instead of working 80 hour weeks for three years straight? Do you like to get paid overtime for working that much? Do you like having a job that you know will be waiting for you in two weeks or know that the people making decisions are doing it in your best interest? Do you like to have your input listened to? Do you like to be respected and valued as a person?

Because that's not the game industry. Say goodbye to weekends, relationships, family, job security, happiness, and comfort.

I'm not going to be able to persuade anyone to not go into the game industry. Nobody could've have convinced me when I wanted to. All I'm saying is eat to live, don't live to eat. Don't throw away your life to get into the game industry. Have an exit strategy.

While there is truth to what you say, it's not always like the scenario you describe. I've been in the game industry for 15 years. Sure, there have been nightmare projects where everything goes wrong and more and more people are brought in to put out fires. You can be pulling all-nighters, working 60-80 hour weeks, and barely being able to do laundry when you get home exhausted after 2 months of the above.

However, there have also been projects I've worked on with great management. You can work with a team of highly skilled people who are great at what they do, and everybody goes home after 8 hours and spends time with their families and loved ones. I've heard Neversoft works minimal overtime (a couple weekends in the final month) because they plan properly.

Every project is different, and each studio has a different culture. Your 'sky is falling' post sounds like you're trying to scare people away from the game industry. I think the most important trait a person needs is passion for their work. If you want it bad enough, you'll love what you're doing, and it will show in your work. That passion is what drives people to stick with it for more than 5 years, despite the bullshit. If every game were like you described, everybody would quit.

 

[Sqorgar]

Your 'sky is falling' post sounds like you're trying to scare people away from the game industry.

Oh, hell yes, I am. You don't need to be in the game industry to make games. Hell, I argue that the games that made you want to make games in the first place are impossible to make in the game industry.

I think the most important trait a person needs is passion for their work. If you want it bad enough, you'll love what you're doing, and it will show in your work. That passion is what drives people to stick with it for more than 5 years, despite the bullshit.

It is precisely my passion for games that made it so difficult to be there. It's like someone who loves working with dogs becoming a dog executioner.

If every game were like you described, everybody would quit.

MOST of them do. If the game industry was a healthy place to work, it wouldn't have an 51% burnout rate over 10 years (only 34% over the first 5 years). (source).

Take a second to process that. MOST of the people who enter the game industry will leave it within 10 years. Some of their own volition. Some, not. How could anyone, in their right mind, recommend a career path like that?

 

[soultron]

MOST of them do. If the game industry was a healthy place to work, it wouldn't have an 51% burnout rate over 10 years (only 34% over the first 5 years). (source).

I'm not arguing that the turnover rate is high (it is) but I feel that paper is a little out of date (published April/2004), especially given there has been whistleblowing (EA Spouse: Nov/2004, Rockstar Spouse: Jan/2010) that have been a bit of a wake-up call for everyone already in the industry and those considering getting in. If you didn't already know how bad it was (or how good you had it), you certainly found out after incidents like that.

Company culture and their outlook on stuff like crunch+bonuses is important, so always look into that beforehand, if at all possible.

Also, my favourite excerpt from the paper so far:

Educate your peers. Tell them that producers and managers are not always the enemy, and that a great deal can be accomplished through honest communication and respect.

I'll say that everything is totally different from studio-to-studio. Some management structures are just busted, absolutely.

 

[Gisk]

Hey everyone, I had a few questions about going into the industry, and y'all seem to be the most knowledgeable people on GAF about this kind of stuff so here goes.

I'm going to enter college this fall at a pretty good school for a CS degree. I've always wanted to enter the industry, and during my HS years I made a few games and generally enjoyed the whole creative process of designing and producing a game. I'm thinking of transferring to a school that teaches a CS course that involves game programming/design, like DigiPen or USC. Transferring won't be a problem, but I am unsure about considering/going to one of these programs.

Are they worth it?
As a person who is pretty good at programming (8/10 compared to people I know) would they be beneficial to someone trying to enter the industry?
Would I be better off with a regular CS degree?

Thanks in advance.

 

[soultron]

Hey everyone, I had a few questions about going into the industry, and y'all seem to be the most knowledgeable people on GAF about this kind of stuff so here goes.

I'm going to enter college this fall at a pretty good school for a CS degree. I've always wanted to enter the industry, and during my HS years I made a few games and generally enjoyed the whole creative process of designing and producing a game. I'm thinking of transferring to a school that teaches a CS course that involves game programming/design, like DigiPen or USC. Transferring won't be a problem, but I am unsure about considering/going to one of these programs.

Are they worth it?
As a person who is pretty good at programming (8/10 compared to people I know) would they be beneficial to someone trying to enter the industry?
Would I be better off with a regular CS degree?

Thanks in advance.

Be wary of private art institute-type schools with sky-high tuition. These places (Vancouver Film School is the best reference I can give) can be great if you're into it, super motivated, network with nearby studios, and have a good group to work with. If not? You're flushing $30K+ down the drain. And you usually can't afford to have a part-time job, time-wise in a program like that.

I'd say the most important thing that you can do at any school is to network, volunteer/become a member in local organizations (your local IGDA chapter, for instance), and go to as many industry-related events as possible. Find some great peers to work on some small projects with so that you have a body of work. It's great to be able to point potential employers to a link of your app store game or your mod's webpage, for instance. Most importantly: if you're not doing something substantial outside of school that's related to what you want to do, you're doing it wrong. You think you're good at programming? Learn more. Add another language. Learn some networking. Get into heavy-duty 3D maths and physics. Always commit yourself to learning.

I can't comment about DigiPen/USC/SMU/etc. because I don't know their reputations well enough. See if you can get in touch with some students and ask what they thought. A school will try their best to sell you their brand of education, so they're often not the best source to get an unbiased look into things.

I'd recommend going to school for CS if you enjoy it now. Be prepared to learn a lot. You're not really that great at programming right now, sorry to say. You're going to meet some absolutely genius programmers in your time, so aim to become them and learn from them if possible. A CS degree also has applications beyond the game industry, which is important if you'd ever like to leave. That and it will (hopefully) teach you proper programming practises.

Just my two cents. Hopefully some more experienced programmers (I'm still young) and industry folk here can offer some of their inputs.

Also, check Gamasutra/Game Career Guide's list of game-related schools here. Gamasutra is a site that you should probably be reading anyway, if you're interested in breaking into the industry. Lots of great reads on there.

 

[Boss Man]

I would mention that, according to what I've heard, CS degrees vary wildly across schools. Most everyone tends to agree that programming-heavy is the way to go, but I've heard of some CS majors having never (that's right) programmed. I would look carefully into the programs at each school that you're considering, and make sure that they actually put a good bit of focus on programming. Also keep in mind that a CS degree has a lot more to offer than just a job in the gaming industry (even though that's what you want to do right now), so I would focus more on the overall program than a specific course.

Basically, it's only worth it if that entire program is better than the one you're in now. If you transfer and end up taking a lot of classes that are only concerned with game design, you will probably be spending more money for a weaker education.

 

[soultron]

I would mention that, according to what I've heard, CS degrees vary wildly across schools. Most everyone tends to agree that programming-heavy is the way to go, but I've heard of some CS majors having never (that's right) programmed. I would look into the programs at each school that you're considering, and make sure that they actually put a good bit of focus on programming.

In addition to this, some schools that have both a CS and SfwrEng program will have different splits between math and programming. My sfwr program had more of a focus on math than programming, which was fun.

 

[Sqorgar]

I'm not arguing that the turnover rate is high (it is) but I feel that paper is a little out of date (published April/2004), especially given there has been whistleblowing (EA Spouse: Nov/2004, Rockstar Spouse: Jan/2010) that have been a bit of a wake-up call for everyone already in the industry and those considering getting in.

And Team Bondi was last year. How many people from 38 Studios do you think are going to stay in the game industry? Here's a video of OMGPOP bragging about its sweatshop-like conditions (55 people, 1 bathroom!!). Activision had hackers break into West and Zampella’s email, voicemail and computer. I know of one game designer who is a little pissed at his previous place of employment, since they took his IP from him, ran him out the door, and then fired all the people he brought on board to help make the game. Even if turnover is better (and I REALLY doubt that it is), the game industry is still a brutal place to work that will fuck you over sooner or later.

The game industry isn't getting better, man. The system is broken and it won't just get better by ignoring this fact and hoping for the best.

I'll say that everything is totally different from studio-to-studio. Some management structures are just busted, absolutely.

I can say from personal experience that Activision is a shithole. Unfortunately, Activision owns about half of the game development houses in the US. EA owns the other half. Good luck finding a company that isn't beholden to either the devil or the worst corporation in the world.

I'm thinking of transferring to a school that teaches a CS course that involves game programming/design, like DigiPen or USC.

If you are one of those 51% that leave the game industry within 10 years, that DigiPen diploma is pretty much toilet paper.

 

[soultron]

Sqorgar, I have to ask: did you enjoy anything during your time as a developer? Did you at least make some good friends out of it? I've been to your site before (it's fascinating, by the way, and I mean that), but are you putting any of your stuff to work these days?

 

[Boss Man]

If you are one of those 51% that leave the game industry within 10 years, that DigiPen diploma is pretty much toilet paper.

Not to mention, I doubt it will get you much further into the gaming industry than a pure CS degree would (though I could be wrong). The cost / benefit of something like that seems awful either way.

 

[Anuxinamoon]

My husband posted a great post on Polycount a couple months back in a thread called "Is the game industry even worth it"
Of course this is all on the artists side of game development but I think some of his points can carry across all disciplines and creative industries.

Trust me. I came this *makes really small shape with fingers* close to throwing it all in after about 3 years of 'trying' to be a character artist. I actually had wanted to be a baker as well, so I got a bakers apprenticeship all lined up because after all that time I just wasn’t good enough of an artist to be in the games industry in Australia or anywhere else for that matter....

I have been in some pretty shocking studio situations. I worked 3 months without any pay to meet a milestone to try and secure more funding because our publisher decided to freeze all payments to the studio.
Then I've been in some really great studios that pushed me artistically, creatively, encouraged open discussions about the game and feedback from the whole team and finally shipped a pretty successful product.

You can't predict whether the project you work on will see the light of day and/or if you will eventually be pushed to working obscene hours.
You just need to understand where your line in the sand is drawn, and if you start feeling uncomfortable in your workplace you let your lead know. You give them three warnings, then you leave and find somewhere better. Always have 6 months of funds saved up and always have a portfolio ready to fire out to land a new job at the drop of a hat.

I have been on the move across continents to pursue my love of making games. luckily have a husband who also shares that passion. Do we want to settle down one day? Sure! But it ain't today, not when there are so many cool games we want to work on

The AAA games industry isn't for everyone, and the indy games industry isn't for everyone, and to be honest making games just isn't for everyone. But if you have a passion to make and be a part of such an amazing and stimulating industry, you will no doubt find your way there.

 

[Gisk]

Thanks for the replies everyone, I found them to be really helpful.

Just one more question.

Most of the schools I've looked at have degrees that go like "Computer Science with a minor in systems simulation" (I think that's one of the major ones anyway). Where your core education is learning how to program and design software that can be 'used' in a game related manner. I mean on the surface, a degree like this seems to be better than a "major in games design" degree. But I dunno. Thoughts?

 

[Kikarian]

I personally am looking for development, than being the producer. In the Animation and modelling of the characters.

I can't really help you with what a producer would need. Of course, good communication skills.

 

[Sqorgar]

Sqorgar, I have to ask: did you enjoy anything during your time as a developer? Did you at least make some good friends out of it?

At Treyarch, no, I hated every second of being in that dark cubicle working on stupid milestones with ungodly deadlines. Being a contract writer on DeathSpank, however, was all smiles. It's too bad it never panned out into a career (they didn't even ask me back for the third game).

I've been to your site before (it's fascinating, by the way, and I mean that), but are you putting any of your stuff to work these days?

I'm not looking to get back into the industry, and nobody has made any compelling offers, so it's just a hobby and it probably always will be. And I'm totally okay with that.

 

[Eggo]

Hey everyone, I had a few questions about going into the industry, and y'all seem to be the most knowledgeable people on GAF about this kind of stuff so here goes.

I'm going to enter college this fall at a pretty good school for a CS degree. I've always wanted to enter the industry, and during my HS years I made a few games and generally enjoyed the whole creative process of designing and producing a game. I'm thinking of transferring to a school that teaches a CS course that involves game programming/design, like DigiPen or USC. Transferring won't be a problem, but I am unsure about considering/going to one of these programs.

Are they worth it?
As a person who is pretty good at programming (8/10 compared to people I know) would they be beneficial to someone trying to enter the industry?
Would I be better off with a regular CS degree?

Thanks in advance.

When I worked at Activision, I know we brought in interns from USC and Carnegie Mellon. n-Space in Orlando regularly hires new talent out of FIEA, and EA is also heavily involved with that program. However, a degree from Full Sail carries little to no weight from what I've seen, so be careful.

As someone else mentioned, the key to breaking into the game industry is networking. It's a very small industry, so once you get in, if you make friends and people like you, you can easily move from one company to another. There's a lot of nepotism.

 

[vaelic]

without a good Producer a project can fall to shreds

 

[Boss Man]

Thanks for the replies everyone, I found them to be really helpful.

Just one more question.

Most of the schools I've looked at have degrees that go like "Computer Science with a minor in systems simulation" (I think that's one of the major ones anyway). Where your core education is learning how to program and design software that can be 'used' in a game related manner. I mean on the surface, a degree like this seems to be better than a "major in games design" degree. But I dunno. Thoughts?

Yup, I believe that's the best thing to do. Not only will it get you into the gaming industry if you want, but it's a great degree to get right now regardless.

 

[Ledsen]

I'm very interested in some sort of ancillary role in the games industry as well. I'm an economist currently working for a municipality (doing budget, follow-ups, forecasts, statistics etc) and and I'm thinking of going more towards either marketing or continuing more towards pure economics, trying to move up the ranks at some company to get leadership experience. I don't really have any experience with game development, although I did start the equivalent of a BCS (got out after 1 year, would be regretting it now if I hadn't met my future wife studying economics) so I did do some advanced maths and programming there. So what do you guys think, would it be possible to me to get into actual development (aiming for producer probably) or should I try getting in the administrative route (economist, marketer, etc)? What skills should I try to develop? Also, is it possible to go from administration to development?

I should add that I'm in Sweden, so I don't know if the horror stories about constant crunch, no life outside work etc actually apply here since we have such strong pro-labor laws.

 

[ghibli99]

^^^ Customer telemetry is pretty huge right now, and folks who can make sense out of all the data are extremely valuable to publishers focused on it.

Thanks for the replies everyone, I found them to be really helpful.

Just one more question.

Most of the schools I've looked at have degrees that go like "Computer Science with a minor in systems simulation" (I think that's one of the major ones anyway). Where your core education is learning how to program and design software that can be 'used' in a game related manner. I mean on the surface, a degree like this seems to be better than a "major in games design" degree. But I dunno. Thoughts?

I'm about to oversimplify things, but if you are good at programming, or have a natural command of it as you gain an education in it, you will - in the long run - be in very high demand. I think most game design degrees are worthless, and you'll likely just crack into the industry via QA anyway.

I can speak from personal experience right now that truly good programmers are hard to come by. The easier route to take for folks is usually in design or producing, which is why you rarely ever see entry to mid-level design or producer positions open when you look at career sites. Many of those positions are filled with in-house people that those teams are already comfortable working with.

 

[Hydrogen Bluebird]

Thread bump after almost half a year.

I am now working as an assistant producer (after over a year in QA). I've started a blog entry series about things that I've learned while working as a producer and the first entry is now a featured post on Gamasutra.

The Education of a Game Producer part 1: Three ‘P’s to Remember

Some quotes:

Regardless of how big or small a game is, being a game producer is a huge responsibility. Tasks such as scheduling the entire development cycle, identifying the milestones for each phase of the project (and making sure the milestones are delivered), working with different teams to address creative or technical issues, and communicating with the publisher or external clients, fall on the producer’s shoulders.

Planning should be a game producer’s bread and butter. Micro planning and Macro planning documents should be accurate and constantly updated. Good planning also involves taking into consideration the best, worst, and average completion time for each task in order to make the project schedule as flexible as possible.

A producer should be able to predict, or at least list down the possible bottlenecks/impediments to the production process. It’s about looking ahead and seeing circumstances that could prove to be a problem

Once production problems are identified and then discussed with development leads/teams, it’s also up to the producer to always propose solutions and make sure that a solution is put into practice.

Just thought I'd share the article. I plan on making more entries as I learn more on the job.

 

[usea]

Thread bump after almost half a year.

I am now working as an assistant producer (after over a year in QA). I've started a blog entry series about things that I've learned while working as a producer and the first entry is now a featured post on Gamasutra.

The Education of a Game Producer part 1: Three ‘P’s to Remember

Just thought I'd share the article. I plan on making more entries as I learn more on the job.

Thanks for the update, and congratulations!

 

[Hydrogen Bluebird]

Thanks usea. Hopefully, I could come up with the second entry real soon.