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[Audioboxer]

There is a 47 long video playlist here, primarily from Christina Hoff Sommers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYpELqKZ02Q&index=1&list=PLytTJqkSQqtr7BqC1Jf4nv3g2yDfu7Xmd

First video Intersectional Feminism: What is it?

Other topics include the wage gap, videogames, gamergate, sexual violence, rape, and Hillary Clinton.

Working my way through the list, but I have to say I like her and a lot of what she says (have known of her via Rubin/Joe Rogan but I've never checked out her own material till now).

Not sure how popular she will be on GAF, but as a seemingly prominent feminist voice I guess her views on things are worth hearing/debating.

The title is what she calls her catch all for her videos, so please don't shoot me down if you see her as a liar or something and don't like that I've used the word fact in the title.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Christina Hoff Sommers had to create her own brand of feminism because nobody else in feminist circles really agree with her. She's the feminist MRAs and GamerGate found themselves in bed with.

Also the American Enterprise Institute is a conservative think tank.

 

[benicillin]

She's a factual feminist if you assume that all facts come from an MRA right wing thinktank.

 

[Leunam]

Christina Hoff Sommers had to create her own brand of feminism because nobody else in feminist circles really agree with her. She's the feminist MRAs and GamerGate found themselves in bed with.

Also the American Enterprise Institute is a conservative think tank.

Well shit. Is it still worth watching her videos knowing this? That's a hell of an endorsement.

 

[cameron]

What's up with your source materials? You recently made a thread sourcing Paul Joseph Watson / Infowars. Now it's Christina Hoff Sommers.

 

[dapperbandit]

Yeah she's a feminist for people with no patience for feminists. Doesn't mean everything she says is wrong and the words "right wing think tank" don't automatically invalidate everything she says.

It's a big tent.

 

[DrGonzo615]

Well shit. Is it still worth watching her videos knowing this? That's a hell of an endorsement.

Why dont you just watch them and decide for yourself?

 

[Kurdel]

Will watch later, because I am always curious how their special pleading arguments work

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Well shit. Is it still worth watching her videos knowing this? That's a hell of an endorsement.

That's up to you. I have a strong bias against her, so naturally I would say no, but maybe watch one or two and you decide. I personally stopped giving her content any views during the height of the GamerGate debacle.

 

[Audioboxer]

Well shit. Is it still worth watching her videos knowing this? That's a hell of an endorsement.

Well, here's 3 of the gaming videos for you to critique

The war on gamers continues - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMw39meKmzY&feature=youtu.be&list=PLytTJqkSQqtr7BqC1Jf4nv3g2yDfu7Xmd

What critics of GamerGate get wrong - https://youtu.be/5RVlCvBd21w?list=PLytTJqkSQqtr7BqC1Jf4nv3g2yDfu7Xmd

Are video games sexist? - https://youtu.be/9MxqSwzFy5w?list=PLytTJqkSQqtr7BqC1Jf4nv3g2yDfu7Xmd

Keep in mind the dates on the videos. GG one is from 2014.

What's up with your source materials? You recently made a thread sourcing Paul Joseph Watson / Infowars. Now it's Christina Hoff Sommers.

We don't all hivemind to the same sources, so sorry if I'm not an exact carbon copy of you. Although after learning more about PJW/Infowars I swiftly discounted them, I already said I wouldn't ever post them on GAF again. CHS however I don't see any reason to simply end watching her content as I think there is a lot of genuinely delivered talking points that aren't said through aggression/smearing.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

What's up with your source materials? You recently made a thread sourcing Paul Joseph Watson / Infowars. Now it's Christina Hoff Sommers.

Well he lists Joe Rogan in his OP. So probably not getting the most academic of sources.

 

[Jonbo298]

Why dont you just watch them and decide for yourself?

Have to be careful of the NeoGAF Wrong Think Task Force.

 

[Audioboxer]

Well he lists Joe Rogan in his OP. So probably not getting the most academic of sources.

I don't see Rogan as an academic, I just like hearing from a lot of his guests and a long format for interviews rather than 5-20 minutes.

Especially the one where he had a cop on talking about corruption

Michael A. Wood, Jr. is a retired Baltimore police officer and veteran of the USMC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndg-JGmYryA

Maybe there is other places people sit down for 2~3 hour interviews but I found Rogan "first" for this sort of long debate.

 

[cameron]

We don't all hivemind to the same sources, so sorry if I'm not an exact carbon copy of you. Although after learning more about PJW/Infowars I swiftly discounted them, I already said I wouldn't ever post them on GAF again. CHS however I don't see any reason to simply end watching her content as I think there is a lot of genuinely delivered talking points that aren't said through aggression/smearing.

You have a tendency to "hivemind" hot garbage.

 

[Eidan]

Isn't she the feminist for people who hate feminism?

 

[Pizoxuat]

Her target audience is men who want to be reassured that there's no real need for anything to change. I am well way the fuck outside of that audience, so no, I don't need to watch her videos.

 

[Audioboxer]

You have a tendency to "hivemind" hot garbage.

Well critique the content then and post what things you like/think I should like and focus on. That comment does nothing really to debate a battle of ideas. But thanks for your input.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Yeah she's a feminist for people with no patience for feminists. Doesn't mean everything she says is wrong and the words "right wing think tank" don't automatically invalidate everything she says.

It's a big tent.

No, rightwing think tank does pretty much invalidate any argument. Do any research into their arguments and they fall apart like the house of cards they are.

 

[Inferno313]

Well, here's 3 of the gaming videos for you to critique

The war on gamers continues - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMw39meKmzY&feature=youtu.be&list=PLytTJqkSQqtr7BqC1Jf4nv3g2yDfu7Xmd

What critics of GamerGate get wrong - https://youtu.be/5RVlCvBd21w?list=PLytTJqkSQqtr7BqC1Jf4nv3g2yDfu7Xmd

Are video games sexist? - https://youtu.be/9MxqSwzFy5w?list=PLytTJqkSQqtr7BqC1Jf4nv3g2yDfu7Xmd

Keep in mind the dates on the videos. GG one is from 2014.



We don't all hivemind to the same sources, so sorry if I'm not an exact carbon copy of you. Although after learning more about PJW/Infowars I swiftly discounted them, I already said I wouldn't ever post them on GAF again. CHS however I don't see any reason to simply end watching her content as I think there is a lot of genuinely delivered talking points that aren't said through aggression/smearing.

I'm half-way through the gamergate one. So far, she's dipped into the "Both side are the same" fallacy, and then followed up with: "Violence against women isn't a problem in games because there's worse things on TV."

Not terribly convincing of an argument.

 

[marrec]

Yeah she's a feminist for people with no patience for feminists. Doesn't mean everything she says is wrong and the words "right wing think tank" don't automatically invalidate everything she says.

It's a big tent.

She's coming at the idea of feminism from the opposite direction that you would assume it would have to be approached, especially in her "factual" feminist series of videos (a rather presumptive title already). In these videos, she sets out most to deflect or debunk traditional feminism as a means of tearing it down or obviating it's need.

In her original books (which are much more coherent than the ridiculous videos she produces), she comes across as much more compassionate and understanding, just most of the time factually wrong and mislead by poor sources.

I'd suggest reading her books, skip Vice and Virtue in Everyday Life unless you want to see what informs her later descent into madness, but read Who Stole Feminism and The War Against Boys to see most of her current arguments in their BEST form, but also read the critiques of those books because you'll come to understand that her information is usually out of context, lacking, or just plain wrong.

Of course, having an opinion that is 180 degrees from the norm of feminism isn't inherently wrong, so it's important to understand WHY she's wrong.

The video series linked in the OP though is the WORST of what she's produced from a critical standpoint, it's all logical fallacies and biases.

This is before you even get into her obvious motivations, made all the more clear since she aligned herself with Milo Yiannopoulos and gamergate as a whole.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Isn't she the feminist for people who hate feminism?

Yes. She's the feminist people go to to say "See, this feminist agrees with me! Feminists are bad." The type who can't see the failure in their logic.

 

[Toxi]

Well, here's 3 of the gaming videos for you to critique

The war on gamers continues - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMw39meKmzY&feature=youtu.be&list=PLytTJqkSQqtr7BqC1Jf4nv3g2yDfu7Xmd

What critics of GamerGate get wrong - https://youtu.be/5RVlCvBd21w?list=PLytTJqkSQqtr7BqC1Jf4nv3g2yDfu7Xmd

Are video games sexist? - https://youtu.be/9MxqSwzFy5w?list=PLytTJqkSQqtr7BqC1Jf4nv3g2yDfu7Xmd

Keep in mind the dates on the videos. GG one is from 2014.

"The war on gamers" is as real as "the war on Christmas".

Appropriately, both originate from the far right trying to appeal to reactionaries' persecution complexes.

 

[Audioboxer]

Yes. She's the feminist people go to to say "See, this feminist agrees with me! Feminists are bad." The type who can't see the failure in their logic.

Well I don't think feminists are bad, individuals are bad. I don't like blanketing whole movements/communities just because. So I guess I can't fit into that neat parcel you stated.

I am however worried at free speech attacks on College/University campuses.

 

[Inferno313]

Well I don't think feminists are bad, individuals are bad. I don't like blanketing whole movements/communities just because. So I guess I can't fit into that neat parcel you stated.

I am however worried at free speech attacks on College/University campuses.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

 

[Mr Cola]

Well I don't think feminists are bad, individuals are bad. I don't like blanketing whole movements/communities just because. So I guess I can't fit into that neat parcel you stated.

I am however worried at free speech attacks on College/University campuses.

I think you are fighting a tide of people here who wont give the videos the time of day, no point arguing with them, if someone isnt willing to see your side, even to critique it afterwards and disagree, theres not any reason to converse with them.

 

[marrec]

Well I don't think feminists are bad, individuals are bad. I don't like blanketing whole movements/communities just because.

I am however worried at free speech attacks on College/University campuses.

That is a fine thing to worry about, but has little to do with feminism as a philosophy and even less to do with Sommers other than this new trend of her and Milo trying their damnedest to get banned from campuses by saying needlessly objectionable shit.

Again, from a critical standpoint, she was only ever relevant during the beginnings of her book writing career. Since "The War on Boys" she has been irrelevant and ever increasingly wrong in her pop-cultural editorials.

 

[Inferno313]

I think you are fighting a tide of people here who wont give the videos the time of day, no point arguing with them, if someone isnt willing to see your side, even to critique it afterwards and disagree, theres not any reason to converse with them.

I don't see that happening in this thread. I'm currently watching the videos, not particularly convinced by what I'm seeing. Marrec also posted a thoughtful rebuttal.

 

[EdibleKnife]

The war on gamers, huh? I can see why she's called factual

 

[Audioboxer]

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

Well CHS is outspoken on that debate, which is where I personally know her more from.

I think you are fighting a tide of people here who wont give the videos the time of day, no point arguing with them, if someone isnt willing to see your side, even to critique it afterwards and disagree, theres not any reason to converse with them.

Suppose so, but I guess I'm just taken a back a little that that one poster already has me on his/her blacklist and wanted to publicly say so. It's fair enough though, I'm a reasonable guy and don't mind responding or walking away when I guess it's best.

All I'd prefer when someone says I'm posting shit is to point me to better debates or videos they like so I can consume them also and not just be told "you're wrong".

 

[Alex_Mexico]

She's a factual feminist if you assume that all facts come from an MRA right wing thinktank.

Gamergate embraced her and began to call her "based mom" back the (yes, for real). If you still think her views are for you after that then knock yourself out. I can't stand her and her views. She's only there to assure men everything is fine as it is and nothing needs changing.

 

[Henkka]

I remember liking her interview on Rogan. I do feel like I agree with her more often than I do with "mainstream" feminists. Should I be worried?

 

[PillarEN]

Ayyyy. She's kind of a kook. She's on the other extreme side of feminism.

 

[marrec]

I remember liking her interview on Rogan. I do feel like I agree with her more often than I do with "mainstream" feminists. Should I be worried?

Not at all, do as much reading on it as you can and try to find those critical of people you agree with most of all. Her ideas are very seductive, especially to young white men (not saying you are) because they reinforce societal norms rather than challenging them.

 

[imBask]

Isn't she the feminist for people who hate feminism?

I agree with parts of what she's saying, so I guess i'm a right wing nut and I hate women/feminism

although I also agree with parts of what the other side has to say, so I guess i'm a dirty hippy liberal who smokes weed for a living

Thank god grey areas don't exist!

 

[Audioboxer]

I remember liking her interview on Rogan. I do feel like I agree with her more often than I do with "mainstream" feminists. Should I be worried?

Don't be worried, just listen to all sorts of ideas and try and use them to evaluate the kind of person you wish to be. That is why I dislike free speech being attacked, we need to hear things we don't necessarily like or agree with to learn at least why others think the way they do.

I agree with parts of what she's saying, so I guess i'm a right wing nut and I hate women/feminism

although I also agree with parts of what the other side has to say, so I guess i'm a dirty hippy liberal who smokes weed for a living

Thank god grey areas don't exist!

Well I don't like to pigeon hole myself, so I guess it's why you could say I'm right here, left there, or somewhere in the centre overall. I just like hearing ideas and picking and choosing what I think is most reasonable. Don't think there is one person in my life I can ever say I agree 100% with.

If people on GAF who are seething at what I post/say want to ask me my personal opinions on things I'd rather they do that to be honest.

 

[Slayven]

Half way through her Intersectional Feminism:video, and yeah she is on some bullshit.

 

[Intheflorsh]

Wow, there's a name I haven't heard since the worst days of gamergate.

 

[Corronchilejano]

I'm going to watch a few.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Well I don't think feminists are bad, individuals are bad. I don't like blanketing whole movements/communities just because. So I guess I can't fit into that neat parcel you stated.

I am however worried at free speech attacks on College/University campuses.

I'm referring mostly to her relations with places like 'A Voice For Men' who she's heralded by and has worked on content with. As a clarification, A Voice for Men has been described by the Southern Poverty Law Center as:

A Voice for Men is essentially a mouthpiece for its editor, Paul Elam, who proposes to “expose misandry [hatred of men] on all levels in our culture.” Elam tosses down the gauntlet in his mission statement: “AVfM regards feminists, manginas [a derisive term for weak men], white knights [a similar derisive term, for males who identify as feminists] and other agents of misandry as a social malignancy. We do not consider them well intentioned or honest agents for their purported goals and extend to them no more courtesy or consideration than we would clansmen [sic], skinheads, neo Nazis or other purveyors of hate.” Register-Her.com, an affiliated website that vilifies women by name who have made supposedly false rape allegations (among other crimes against masculinity), is one of Elam’s signature “anti-hate” efforts. “Why are these women not in prison?” the site asks.

(source)

She is also the woman who was honorarily invited to a conference by GamerGaters, and attended with another conservative nutbag Milo YianapoopCANTSPELLHISNAMEus.

Typically I would actually classify her as an anti-feminist however if she wants her own brand of feminism then I guess she's entitled to have it. Even if it disagrees with basically all the tenants of more established ones.

 

[Inferno313]

I'm referring mostly to her relations with places like 'A Voice For Men' who she's heralded by and has worked on content with. As a clarification, A Voice for Men has been described by the Southern Poverty Law Center as:



(source)

She is also the woman who was honorarily invited to a conference by GamerGaters, and attended with another conservative nutbag Milo YianapoopCANTSPELLHISNAMEus.

Typically I would actually classify her as an anti-feminist however if she wants her own brand of feminism then I guess she's entitled to have it. Even if it disagrees with basically all the tenants of more established ones.

Those dastardly Manginas!!!!!111!!

 

[perfectchaos007]

I'll watch these later. I'm already familiar with modern mainstream feminists take on the wage gap, gender roles, how videogames sexualize women, and the need for more women in STEM. I want to hear her take.

 

[Henkka]

Don't be worried, just listen to all sorts of ideas and try and use them to evaluate the kind of person you wish to be. That is why I dislike free speech being attacked, we need to hear things we don't necessarily like or agree with to learn at least why others think the way they do.



Well I don't like to pigeon hole myself, so I guess it's why you could say I'm right here, left there, or somewhere in the centre overall. I just like hearing ideas and picking and choosing what I think is most reasonable. Don't think there is one person in my life I can ever say I agree 100% with.

Totally agree. I don't want to form my opinions by what "side" I'm on. I can simultaneously agree 100% with Anita Sarkeesian on Ms. Male Characters and agree 100% with Sommers on free speech on campuses. What a concept. Evaluate individual arguments by the evidence and reasoning presented, instead of the person or political affiliation imo.

 

[Audioboxer]

I'm referring mostly to her relations with places like 'A Voice For Men' who she's heralded by and has worked on content with. As a clarification, A Voice for Men has been described by the Southern Poverty Law Center as:



(source)

She is also the woman who was honorarily invited to a conference by GamerGaters, and attended with another conservative nutbag Milo YianapoopCANTSPELLHISNAMEus.

Typically I would actually classify her as an anti-feminist however if she wants her own brand of feminism then I guess she's entitled to have it. Even if it disagrees with basically all the tenants of more established ones.

Well whatever that Voice For Men thing is it sounds like a crock of bullshit. As I said above I don't ever really agree 100% with anyone on everything they think/spend their free time doing so I'll happily say that is not a relation I'd want to have (VFM). From what you've posted.

Milo is an offensive douchebag, but incoming shitstorm at me, there have been a few things he's said I didn't object to. For the most neutral of things at least I'll happily say he should not be banned from campuses or prevented being able to speak by students. Protesting yes, but not outright prevention. I hold that thought for nearly anyone though, unless maybe some convicted terrorist/criminal wanting a platform at a campus.

That's just not how I've grown up in my life, or in my educational career. Shitty ideas were/are fought with debate and better ideas, not censorship.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Don't be worried, just listen to all sorts of ideas and try and use them to evaluate the kind of person you wish to be. That is why I dislike free speech being attacked, we need to hear things we don't necessarily like or agree with to learn at least why others think the way they do.



Well I don't like to pigeon hole myself, so I guess it's why you could say I'm right here, left there, or somewhere in the centre overall. I just like hearing ideas and picking and choosing what I think is most reasonable. Don't think there is one person in my life I can ever say I agree 100% with.

If people on GAF who are seething at what I post/say want to ask me my personal opinions on things I'd rather they do that to be honest.

"Attacks" on freedom of speech are a lot more nuanced than that. It's not always worth hearing the other side in certain instances, especially when said other side is in a higher position of power. But that's a discussion for another day.

Anyway, on these videos, it's fine if you care to pick out the good in the field of bad, but some people don't want to spend time shifting through all that crap to find it. It's not surprising that people don't want to do that, all things considered how much they probably put up with it in life.

 

[Kinitari]

From my experience with Sommers, she says some things I like and agree with, and others that are at least seemingly based on numbers, but she says a lot of things I don't really agree with - and I've never even seen her gamergate stuff (because that topic is just too much for me to give attention to).

Her video in the OP touches on some criticisms that I can absolutely agree with. I think intersectionality is an important idea, but is maybe given too much weight in discussion, where even on GAF, someone being a white male suddenly is an important consideration when reading someone's post. I've also heard people 'compete' about who is the most or least privileged with weird maths, to then validate an argument they were making. I don't think that's where the value of intersectionality lies.

That being said, I think young people get way into any new grand idea they find in college often, and that's when you get the eye rolling behaviour a lot of the time.


If you're looking for feminism that seems to be more... self-critical, skeptical and data oriented, it exists outside of Sommers in what I think are better forms.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Well shit. Is it still worth watching her videos knowing this? That's a hell of an endorsement.

No.

Would you watch dozens and dozens of anti-vaxxer videos to learn about vaccines?

 

[PopeReal]

War on gamers?

Goddamn this kind of shit is fucking dumb.

 

[Audioboxer]

"Attacks" on freedom of speech are a lot more nuanced than that. It's not always worth hearing the other side in certain instances, especially when said other side is in a higher position of power. But that's a discussion for another day.

Anyway, on these videos, it's fine if you care to pick out the good in the field of bad, but some people don't want to spend time shifting through all that crap to find it. It's not surprising that people don't want to do that, all things considered how much they probably put up with it in life.

Yeah that is more than fair. I don't expect anything I say/post on GAF to HAVE to be watched/listened to before commented on.

As I said if anyone wants to name drop any others in the field of feminism I'll happy watch/give comment.

 

[kitschykitty]

Milo is an offensive douchebag, but incoming shitstorm at me, there have been a few things he's said I didn't object to.

A broken clock is right twice a day, that doesn't mean I should rely on my broken clock to tell me what time it is.

 

[M0nochromatic]

"The war on gamers" is as real as "the war on Christmas".

Appropriately, both originate from the far right trying to appeal to reactionaries' persecution complexes.

I just watched this 8-part analysis of how GamerGate was fueled by persecution complexes yesterday. . Weird coincidence.