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The Final Bosman: Donkey Kong is Better than Mario

Mango The Magician said:
Ironically 3D World does have a few levels that feel like they're part of the actual world, case in point the very first one, but then it just drops everything and the game just starts throwing random level designs at you.
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You can just about see the different tiles the 3D World developers slapped together in their level editor. And I really liked 3D World, but DKCR & TR take level design to the next level, transcending just transparent designs.
 
DKC:TF is a way better than NSMBU by a factor of a thousand, but it's a little closer with SM3DW. I was debating about which I thought was better, but I think the Bosman convinced me DKC was better. One of my BIGGEST complaints about 3D World was how the worlds weren't cohesive AT ALL. It's like they named different worlds and then just threw a bunch of random levels into it. I was so excited for the snow-themed world, until I found only like one of the levels were snow-themed! It's insane.
 
Mango The Magician said:
The first point is something I've been thinking about for a while now. All of Galaxies levels felt like far out extreme planets and worlds in Mario's universe, the over-arching theme of space brought it all together and the game felt like a giant adventure. Ironically 3D World does have a few levels that feel like they're part of the actual world, case in point the very first one, but then it just drops everything and the game just starts throwing random level designs at you. Which is weird since so few Mario games are themed like this, even SMW bases it's levels partly off of certain aspects of the overworld,

I just don't understand why they are theming and designing the levels like that, it really destroys immersion and makes the game feel like just a collection of levels. But I guess that's just another thing about 3D World that bugs me, I mean imagine how cool it'd be to see different locales of certain levels on the world map in the background of the train levels.

Ultimately, what people fail to realize is that a game is more than just game-play or resolution or controls, it's an experience where every little thing counts.
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They most likely do it because they don't want to be limit themselves by theme. SMB1 and SMB2 (J) didn't have world maps and their levels were pretty random. You mention SMW which had very limited level themes (it regressed to SMB1 tropes). SMW had a world map, but the different worlds on that map were extremely vague and not very themed. They could and did put levels wherever they felt like. They would put a pit around the level dot and bam underground level or put a small pond around the level dot and you got a water level.

Even in Galaxy they did not adhere to the space theme as much as you remember. Sometimes they were in some weird cake dimension or a child's bedroom for some reason. Sometimes there was sky and no space for the whole level even though you shoot between planetoids. They didn't let themselves be limited by theme. And even then with the space theme there was no cohesiveness for any of the domes or worlds.

As far as level design world cohesiveness goes, 3D World follows pretty much the same aesthetic principles as most Mario games. Complex level design with simple geometry and very clean. Making a world more "believable" can be nice, but how believable do we really need a neon Japanese castle circus floating in the sky run by a giant fire-breathing turtle to be?
 
RagnarokX said:
As far as level design world cohesiveness goes, 3D World follows pretty much the same aesthetic principles as most Mario games. Complex level design with simple geometry and very clean. Making a world more "believable" can be nice, but how believable do we really need a neon Japanese castle circus floating in the sky run by a giant fire-breathing turtle to be?
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We don't need it. But it does makes games better in the long run. Makes them more memorable, that's for sure. And it's just plain fun.

3D World is great, but it would be even better if it was more cohesive. Maybe a few ideas would have to go by the wayside, but the ideas that were in the game would be more fleshed and interesting than many of the one-off levels in 3D World.
 
Mango The Magician said:
The first point is something I've been thinking about for a while now. All of Galaxies levels felt like far out extreme planets and worlds in Mario's universe, the over-arching theme of space brought it all together and the game felt like a giant adventure. Ironically 3D World does have a few levels that feel like they're part of the actual world, case in point the very first one, but then it just drops everything and the game just starts throwing random level designs at you. Which is weird since so few Mario games are themed like this, even SMW bases it's levels partly off of certain aspects of the overworld,

I just don't understand why they are theming and designing the levels like that, it really destroys immersion and makes the game feel like just a collection of levels. But I guess that's just another thing about 3D World that bugs me, I mean imagine how cool it'd be to see different locales of certain levels on the world map in the background of the train levels.

Ultimately, what people fail to realize is that a game is more than just game-play or resolution or controls, it's an experience where every little thing counts.
Click to expand...
I think this sums up my problem with 3D World. It's great mechanically, and I totally understand why they don't want to limit themselves at all to themes when they're brainstorming levels

BUT

It never adds up to something larger than its parts. Those parts may be really, really good, but the sense of progression or cohesion isn't there to take it to the next level for me.
 
I've never really liked the DKC games, and Tropical Freeze hasn't changed my mind. Never really understood the appeal of them, to be totally honest.

Mario is a great formula, but rather stale at this point.
 
I agreed on all the points he made (except for the characters, but I think that was mostly a joke), but he didn't mention the actual level design or how fun each game was.

Yes, Donkey Kong excels in all the things he mentioned, but 3D World was just more pure fun than DK was. At least to me. For that, I consider 3D World the better game.

This video does show many ways that recent Mario games could improve, though.
 
I don't think I've played a Donkey Kong Country since the SNES, and even then it was just on a friends machine for a bit. Never really clicked with me - but I love mario platformers. Looking at footage of DCKTF gives me the same lack of interest - just looks like the original game in hires, and lots of bouncing between barrels.

Yet there is so much love on here for it, that there must be more to it that I've missed over the years. Don't suppose Nintendo have a demo on the eshop do they?
 
I found it weird that the worlds were themed in 3DW but the levels within them weren't. Looking back at some 3DW footage as I play through TF, it just looks a little bland in comparison. Lots of right angles, boring backgrounds. I guess creating dense backgrounds is easier in 2D games, but the platforms floating in nothingness always bugged me in 3DW. I really enjoyed 3DW btw. TF is on another level for me, though. The level design is impeccable.
 
I never had the original DKC games, but have been playing them recently with a friend.
But from my point of view, Retro really refined the original formula that Rare put in place. Particularly the physics and momentum. (The roll jump is perfection)
The enemy hitboxes are miles better too. =P

As for it being vs Mario, well... I'm all for a game where they're teamed up.
Or I'd settle for another Mario VS DK like the original, because fuck yo puzzles
 
Definitely better than NSMBU.

Mario 3D World kind of ruined DKC: TF for me a bit though since I don't find the game to be as good (and both games are platformers obviously). Still a very good game though.
 
It's amazing how everyone claiming that DK is better than 2D Mario uses arguments like:
The music, the background, the amazing fur...

Let's be serious please. If you want this, don't play a platformer game because those aren't the kind of games that show the best graphics by any means (60fps, 2D perspective).

2D Marios have by far the best level design, allowing for multiple approaches so everyone can have a good time playing them and getting better and better.

DK:TF is the best "path limited" platformer ever made, but to compare it to superior approaches like the one done in Mario games and to say it is better is complete *********.
 
freezamite said:
DK:TF is the best "path limited" platformer ever made, but to compare it to superior approaches like the one done in Mario games and to say it is better is complete *********.
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The path is hardly limited; have you seen the speed-runs? Hell, just depending on which character you uses can change what paths are available.
 
Can't compare. Very different platformers. I think DKCR and Tropical Freeze have done wonders to the DK formula and made them into some of the tightest platformers ever. They're certainly more alive and just a lot better than recent 2D Mario games.

But the 3D Mario games ARE more inventive, creative, ambitious and ultimately exciting.
 
Tom Nook Sawyer said:
The path is hardly limited; have you seen the speed-runs? Hell, just depending on which character you uses can change what paths are available.
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Yes, I have seen them, and the path is limited. There're obstacles that can be surpassed by jumping over an enemy instead of going through the "normal" route, but nothing comparable to the 2D marios where there are 3 to 4 routes to take in every level, with platforms that seem to not have a purpose if you don't know what you're doing.

DK:TF is much closer to a well done Rayman game, than to a Super Mario.
 
Mango The Magician said:
The first point is something I've been thinking about for a while now. All of Galaxies levels felt like far out extreme planets and worlds in Mario's universe, the over-arching theme of space brought it all together and the game felt like a giant adventure. Ironically 3D World does have a few levels that feel like they're part of the actual world, case in point the very first one, but then it just drops everything and the game just starts throwing random level designs at you. Which is weird since so few Mario games are themed like this, even SMW bases it's levels partly off of certain aspects of the overworld,

I just don't understand why they are theming and designing the levels like that, it really destroys immersion and makes the game feel like just a collection of levels. But I guess that's just another thing about 3D World that bugs me, I mean imagine how cool it'd be to see different locales of certain levels on the world map in the background of the train levels.

Ultimately, what people fail to realize is that a game is more than just game-play or resolution or controls, it's an experience where every little thing counts.
Click to expand...

From a conceptual standpoint, I think the interconnected world of Mario Sunshine was the most ambitious, and satisfying to navigate into, of any 3D Mario game. Sense of immersion part due to the expanded Mario64-style levels to explore, big part due to the accurate geography of Dolphin Island where you could see every level from another. It was sorta of an ante-litteram open world Mario, where probably technical limits still imposed a discrete separation into traditional levels. I'd love to see an updated take on Sunshine concept, but maybe WiiU isn't even strong enough for a fullfilled vision of that model.

GameXplain recently posted this somewhat correlated video, which shows how also Mario Kart DD tried something similar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnRm-w4fikA
 
Anth0ny said:
It's a better 2D platformer than the NSMB games, that's for certain.

However, I enjoyed 3D World more. The points he brought up in the video are valid; DK definitely does things better than Mario, but I think I just prefer 3D platformers to 2D platformers.

It's close, though. Both are utterly fantastic games.
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I prefered 3D world, and I usually enjoy 2D platformers wayyyyyyyyyyyyy more than 3D platformers (to the point that I don't even usually buy 3D platformers).

TF was a great game, but as soon as I beat it I went back to 3D world. More content, more variety, better looking, and a lot fresher (I didn't play SM3DL, but did play Returns.)

mrklaw said:
I don't think I've played a Donkey Kong Country since the SNES, and even then it was just on a friends machine for a bit. Never really clicked with me - but I love mario platformers. Looking at footage of DCKTF gives me the same lack of interest - just looks like the original game in hires, and lots of bouncing between barrels.

Yet there is so much love on here for it, that there must be more to it that I've missed over the years. Don't suppose Nintendo have a demo on the eshop do they?
Click to expand...

I don't like the SNES games, but you really should check out Returns and Tropical Freeze. Retro did an incredible job of paying homage to the Rare titles while actually creating gameplay and level design worth a damn.
 
freezamite said:
Yes, I have seen them, and the path is limited. There're obstacles that can be surpassed by jumping over an enemy instead of going through the "normal" route, but nothing comparable to the 2D marios where there are 3 to 4 routes to take in every level, with platforms that seem to not have a purpose if you don't know what you're doing.

DK:TF is much closer to a well done Rayman game, than to a Super Mario.
Click to expand...

You're mistaking a more focused approach for less depth and 'limitation'. "platforms that seem to not have a purpose if you don't know what you're doing" describes much of TF's platform and enemy placement more than you realize with a level of thoughtfulness that approaches any Mario game. That there aren't 3 or 4 separate paths (that's a bit of an exaggeration that doesn't apply to every Mario level and certainly not every single pre-NSMB Wii level) doesn't diminish the level design accomplishments here or that each map's traditional path can be tackled with skill and challenge at several different skill levels, with widely differing tactics and results depending on mastery
 
I won't be able to play DKCTF for about another week, but assuming its on par with DKCR, I think I could definitely get behind DK being better than NSMB Wii/U. The only knocks against DKCR I have are the trial and error nature of some parts of the game, and the blow mechanic, which is unobtrusive but doesn't add much. And these have been changed in the new game. It's really a coin toss for me between DK and NSMB.

3D World is worse, no question in my mind. It's missing the tighter platforming of 2D games yet lacks the larger, more exploration centric levels of the 3D Mario games. It's in a no mans land of design. This is compounded by the low difficulty which flows from the weak platforming and the timer which, while adding a marginal amount of difficulty, constrains the ability to freely explore levels. The 3D land/world games are overrated messes imo, albeit being looking and sounding ones.
 
I agreed with what he said about the roll jump, but I hate that he didn't even seem to mention the best part of it: how you can roll off a platform and jump a while later from mid-air. It's been a thing since the classic trilogy, but it feels even better these days.
 
Both are very great!

I love Tropical Freeze a little more, but I find the recent "trend" to compare Tropical Freeze to Mario (2d or 3d) incredibly childish and uneccesary, even more so if it's a comparision to Mario 3D World, because that's a 3D platformer, while TF is obviously a 2D platformer, which makes it an apples and bananas comparision.

Just get over it people: both are great and offer a diffrent gaming experience, so there is no need to mock one another.
 
Kyle's right although he touches on some relatively minor points. In terms of presentation DK clearly comes ahead, and as far as gameplay goes I prefer the difficult level design and controls that reward dangerous and creative ways of overcoming its challenges compared to how slow 3D World felt and played. I think TF is the best game on the Wii U and the best 2D platformer put out by Nintendo since Yoshi's Island while 3D World was disappointing to me, so my verdict isn't really surprising in the least.
 
XtaLarge said:
You're mistaking a more focused approach for less depth and 'limitation'. "platforms that seem to not have a purpose if you don't know what you're doing" describes much of TF's platform and enemy placement more than you realize with a level of thoughtfulness that approaches any Mario game. That there aren't 3 or 4 separate paths (that's a bit of an exaggeration that doesn't apply to every Mario level and certainly not every single pre-NSMB Wii level) doesn't diminish the level design accomplishments here or that each map's traditional path can be tackled with skill and challenge at several different skill levels, with widely differing tactics and results depending on mastery
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And why is DK:TF more "focused" than mario? Because it has one path that in some areas diverges between the "slow rute" and the "fast rute" (that's of course ignoring all the routes that go towards a prize instead of leading towards the end).

Grab if you can a single video of DK:TF that shows that "depth that surpasses SMBU" because I've never seen it anywhere, and in any video. Good luck.
 
On a kind of side note regarding the tightness of the platforming of Donkey Kong Country compared to say Mario I think one of things that a lot of people don't get about the donkey kong country games is that the roll jump is absolutely the most important thing to know how to utillise. If you don't, then you're going to have a subpar experience with the game, the level of control you can get if you can master that move is night and day over just regular jumps. I saw a lot of reviewers who claimed the game was hard or cheap and they'd play the game and just not even use the move at all. I'm convinced a lot of people decry other platformers on the basis that they don't control exactly like Mario and pass over them for supposedly less tight controls.
 
braves01 said:
I won't be able to play DKCTF for about another week, but assuming its on par with DKCR, I think I could definitely get behind DK being better than NSMB Wii/U. The only knocks against DKCR I have are the trial and error nature of some parts of the game, and the blow mechanic, which is unobtrusive but doesn't add much. And these have been changed in the new game. It's really a coin toss for me between DK and NSMB.

3D World is worse, no question in my mind. It's missing the tighter platforming of 2D games yet lacks the larger, more exploration centric levels of the 3D Mario games. It's in a no mans land of design. This is compounded by the low difficulty which flows from the weak platforming and the timer which, while adding a marginal amount of difficulty, constrains the ability to freely explore levels. The 3D land/world games are overrated messes imo, albeit being looking and sounding ones.
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There's way more incentive to explore in SM3DW than Mario Galaxy: Mario's Fortune.
 
I've just never liked the aesthetics of DK. I don't like looking at it.

That said, I do agree with the point about having actual worlds instead of random floating disconnected platforms. I think this is a valid complaint in the recent Mario games.
 
Comparing DKC:TF to 3DW is a really disingenuous comparison. He's comparing one of the best games in one genre to a simply great entry in another.

It would be like if I made a comparison saying "DKC3 vs Galaxy 2: why donkey kong can't compare".
 
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