Support NeoGAF

[Pancakes]

I actually liked the Dragon Age quicklook. Makes me excited for the game. Looks like an RPG. Hell yea.

Same, at first I wasn't sure because of all the "this is the new shit" advertising but now i am pretty sure that I'm gonna buy it.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

I actually liked the Dragon Age quicklook. Makes me excited for the game. Looks like an RPG. Hell yea.

Has this game been shown on the consoles yet? I'm thinking about getting this if it's good.

 

[eznark]

Is there a time limit on getting souls back? If not, why is the corpse running that bad? Seems 1000x better than Shiren the Wanderer.

 

[TheLegendary]

*Tries to steer clear of Amir0x's nerd rage*


The game looks decent. Seems like a super niche title, and Giant Bomb clearly doesn't cater to that demographic. No need to berate the guy playing...

*Hopes he did a decent enough job*

 

[Pancakes]

Is there a time limit on getting souls back? If not, why is the corpse running that bad? Seems 1000x better than Shiren the Wanderer.

I think if you make it back the first time, you get all your souls back. But, if you die in the "ghost form" you are SOL.

 

[Calcaneus]

I think the quick look does a good job. It shows that the game isnt for everyone, you can play for 5hours and still have a hard time staying alive if you dont want or cant take the time to "learn" the game.

The fact that all three guys took a different stance on the game shows that its a polarizing title. Dave seemed into it, Jeff seemed not so into it, and Vinny sounded like he was on the fence.

 

[eznark]

I think if you make it back the first time, you get all your souls back. But, if you die in the "ghost form" you are SOL.

Ah, cool. I'm definitely picking it up, but after Borderlands and Dragon Age. Looks pretty awesome, but it definitely doesn't look like something everyone (or even many people) would like.

 

[Amir0x]

Is there a time limit on getting souls back? If not, why is the corpse running that bad? Seems 1000x better than Shiren the Wanderer.

All you must do is get back to your bloodstain alive. If you die in the process of trying to get back to it, then your new bloodstain replaces your old one and thus you lose all the souls you accumulated at your last death.

There is no time limit.

 

[EviLore]

The game has some interesting ideas and I don't mind a hard game but losing all your souls? Being forced to basically restart the game? Fuck that, that's not fun that's tedious and boring, what te hell is wrong with Japanese developers these days? They just don't get it, they can't streamline a game for shit. If I got it and had that happen to me I'd just quit then and there.

Yes, devs, please "streamline" every game for members of the enthusiast press (and their devoted minions) so that they can press A to win, saving them embarrassment when playing anything that requires a modicum of skill for their online videos.

 

[Euphor!a]

I think if the overwhelmingly positive reception of Demon's Souls says anything, it says it is not nearly as polarizing as people make it out to be.

 

[TheLegendary]

Yes, devs, please "streamline" every game for members of the enthusiast press (and their devoted minions) so that they can press A to win, saving them embarrassment when playing anything that requires a modicum of skill for their online videos.

I hate this stance. There's absolutely no valid reason I've ever heard for a game not to be "streamlined" to make it more accessible. Maybe you can convince me. The belief that it should be purposefully obtuse is baffling.

The best game ever crafted (Chess) is extremely straightfoward. Children can pick it up quickly and they can have a great time playing it. Yet they wouldn't stand a chance against someone who put the time into it to master it.

Purposefully obfuscating a game to make it "more difficult" only leads to pretentious fans supporting the game's flaws as if they were ingenious gameplay decisions when, more often than not, they're simply due to poor programming or gameplay decisions.

Enlighten me, please.

 

[54-46!]

You can't roll around very well or at all in heavy armor. And if you look at it when he uses the weapon two-handed the weight is killing him.

If you're pretty strong and you try to roll while wearing heavy armor you can just hear him clunk on the ground and the animation has different timings.(It takes him longer to stand up compared to the light-armor wearing Vinny at the start of the game.)

That part is actually made surprisingly well.

I like the way characters animate in Monster Hunter when they are carrying big weapons and stuff - looks heavy and badass, would be cool if this game looked like that.. maybe I'm just too picky about that sort of stuff :lol

 

[Ploid 3.0]

I think if you make it back the first time, you get all your souls back. But, if you die in the "ghost form" you are SOL.

You can stay ghost form until the game force you to be alive (after a boss fight, or if you help someone kill a boss). That's how I do it, and if you die when you're a spirit nothing is changed physically. It's like you have unlimited lives, just that you can lose souls if you're not spending them.

When I have a lot of souls I spend them. That's something I learned to do, and I'm sure other have also. If I have double the amount of souls I would have normally getting to a boss I'd just warp out to nexus and spend it. Usually getting to the boss isn't all that hard. You dont even have to fight everything. When you first play you kinda want to kill things to make sure it's safe to explore or something. When you know where everything is, and you have every loose treasure you start to make a b-line to the boss (via shortcuts usually).

 

[Euphor!a]

I hate this stance. There's absolutely no valid reason I've ever heard for a game not to be "streamlined" to make it more accessable. Maybe you can convince me. The belief that it should be purposefully obtuse is baffling.

The best game ever crafted (Chess) is extremely straightfoward. Children can pick it up quickly and they can have a great time playing it. Yet they wouldn't stand a chance against someone who put the time into it to master it.

Purposefully obfuscating a game to make it "more difficult" is only leads to pretentious fans supporting its flaws as if they were ingenious gameplay decisions when, more often than not, they're simply due to poor programming or gameplay decisions.

Enlighten me, please.

How about the satisfaction of accomplishing something difficult? If a game has hard gameplay but you just revive a minute from where you die, it isn't a hard game. Or if a game has hard gameplay but you revive with all the enemies like you left them, it isn't a hard game as you can pretty much just brute force everything.

A game that makes you work for every kill, a game where death actually has a consequence, is a game that when you succeed is far more satisfying than pretty much anything else out there.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Bayonetta looks as amazing as expected, and Demon's Souls looks as bad as I thought.

 

[LCfiner]

How about the satisfaction of accomplishing something difficult? If a game has hard gameplay but you just revive a minute from where you die, it isn't a hard game. Or if a game has hard gameplay but you revive with all the enemies like you left them, it isn't a hard game as you can pretty much just brute force everything.

A game that makes you work for every kill, a game where death actually has a consequence, is a game that when you succeed is far more satisfying than pretty much anything else out there.

satisfying for you, not for everyone.

but this is already going in circles. no one is going to change anyone’s mind

 

[Amir0x]

I hate this stance. There's absolutely no valid reason I've ever heard for a game not to be "streamlined" to make it more accessible. Maybe you can convince me. The belief that it should be purposefully obtuse is baffling.

The best game ever crafted (Chess) is extremely straightfoward. Children can pick it up quickly and they can have a great time playing it. Yet they wouldn't stand a chance against someone who put the time into it to master it.

Purposefully obfuscating a game to make it "more difficult" only leads to pretentious fans supporting the game's flaws as if they were ingenious gameplay decisions when, more often than not, they're simply due to poor programming or gameplay decisions.

Enlighten me, please.

You seen to be confusing not holding someone's hand with making something obtuse.

Demon's Soul is rarely obtuse, although there are a few minor issues with being clear enough on adjective meanings. Demon's Soul merely believes its audience is intelligent enough to LEARN from the game, rather than being told how everything works point for point.

There is nothing in the game that you cannot learn through simple experimentation, and the rest is all explained for you in the game itself and in the manual. That the game chooses not to coddle casualtards does not make it obtuse. It merely means it requires SKILL, unlike most games today.

 

[syllogism]

Bayonetta looks as amazing as expected, and Demon's Souls looks as bad as I thought.

Bayonetta looks utterly embarrassing

 

[Y2Kev]

I hate this stance. There's absolutely no valid reason I've ever heard for a game not to be "streamlined" to make it more accessible. Maybe you can convince me. The belief that it should be purposefully obtuse is baffling.

The best game ever crafted (Chess) is extremely straightfoward. Children can pick it up quickly and they can have a great time playing it. Yet they wouldn't stand a chance against someone who put the time into it to master it.

Purposefully obfuscating a game to make it "more difficult" only leads to pretentious fans supporting the game's flaws as if they were ingenious gameplay decisions when, more often than not, they're simply due to poor programming or gameplay decisions.

Enlighten me, please.

Your definition of "straightforward" matches Demon's Souls perfectly. The game's design is quaint. It's not confusing, and it's not unfair. You are alive. You collect souls. If you die, you corpse run. You can die infinitely many times. Game progression is non-linear, linked by a hub world. That's the entirety of Demon's Souls.

It's not obtuse or complicated. It really isn't. As far as "streamlining" is concerned, I don't think the game's mechanics are complicated. There are no stats that are outside of typical RPG parlance. There are no unreliable or broken game mechanics.

The game IS, however, challenging, but again it is not unfair. You play the game and you learn to get better or you continually fail. The combat is slow enough and the enemies telegraph all of their attacks. There are items that regenerate your mana and your HP, and they stack.

Demon's Souls is not a game for people that want to run straight through a level whacking everything in sight. It punishes you when you die. So you have to try not to die. That's the entire mechanic. It's not made more or less difficult because of that. Change the mechanic, change the game. The game is already more than generous with offering numerous health items and shortcuts.

I will say that I really disagree with the idea that chess is more analogous to any modern game than to Demon's Souls. Unlike in chess, the majority of games lack any consequence for any actions taken by the player, offer infinitely many doevers for the simplest of tasks, and do not reward learning the game.

I'm all for making games accessible, but I do not think Demon's Souls is particularly inaccessible. It doesn't do anything tricky.

 

[TheLegendary]

How about the satisfaction of accomplishing something difficult? If a game has hard gameplay but you just revive a minute from where you die, it isn't a hard game. Or if a game has hard gameplay but you revive with all the enemies like you left them, it isn't a hard game as you can pretty much just brute force everything.

A game that makes you work for every kill, a game where death actually has a consequence, is a game that when you succeed is far more satisfying than pretty much anything else out there.

I think what you're bringing up is a different issue. I'm not saying difficulty is bad, I'm saying creating a game where it takes someone more than 5 hours to understand the mechanics of the game is (probably) due to poor gameplay decisions. I'm at a disadvantage in this argument because I haven't actually played it. I'm just saying the idea of someone defending a game's lack of clear direction or instructions is simply a defense of bad game mechanics.

 

[Euphor!a]

satisfying for you, not for everyone.

but this is already going in circles. no one is going to change anyone’s mind

Yes, its satisfying for me, I appreciate not having my hand held throughout the entirety of a game and find it all the more satisfying knowing I did it without the developers having to make concessions to those who dislike actual difficulty.

 

[Stoney Mason]

I think the quick look does a good job. It shows that the game isnt for everyone, you can play for 5hours and still have a hard time staying alive if you dont want or cant take the time to "learn" the game.

This. I never really understand the uproar when somebody doesn't share an opinion on a game unless they are obnoxious with it and beat it into the ground.

 

[Y2Kev]

I think what you're bringing up is a different issue. I'm not saying difficulty is bad, I'm saying creating a game where it takes someone more than 5 hours to understand the mechanics of the game is (probably) due to poor gameplay decisions. I'm at a disadvantage in this argument because I haven't actually played it. I'm just saying the idea of someone defending a game's lack of clear direction or instructions is simply a defense of bad game mechanics.

I do not understand how it could possibly take someone 5 hours to understand this game. Maybe 5 hours to get good at it, sure. You've got to practice your parries. You've got to manage your inventory. You've got to LEARN to play the game the right way-- methodically, slowly, and with respect for every individual enemy.

But 5 hours to understand it? Did you skip the tutorial?

you can play for 5hours and still have a hard time staying alive

Demon's Souls is consistently challenging throughout. You have a hard time staying alive for the entirety of the game. That's the point. Luckily, staying alive is not the only way you can play the game-- in fact, it pushes severe disadvantages on the player. You are more detectable to enemies, you do less damage, and you are susceptible to invasion. Of course, this is balanced.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Bayonetta looks utterly embarrassing

Not a fan of fluid and deep combat, that's cool.

 

[Amir0x]

I do not understand how it could possibly take someone 5 hours to understand this game. Maybe 5 hours to get good at it, sure. You've got to practice your parries. You've got to manage your inventory. You've got to LEARN to play the game the right way-- methodically, slowly, and with respect for every individual enemy.

But 5 hours to understand it? Did you skip the tutorial?

hehe. I am still bad at parries, even though I've played for many hours. These things take skill, and sometimes people just don't have the skill level.

But the game is never unfair. When you die, it's your fault. Deaths are only frustrating to me when I know I could not avoid it. In this game, I feel every death leads to me becoming better at the game, and therefore better as a gamer. And that is a rewarding feeling.

It reminds me of my time with F-Zero GX, trying to beat the most difficult setting. It's one of those rare games where I can say "wow, it's actually allowing me to become better at my hobby."

 

[LCfiner]

Not a fan of fluid and deep combat, that's cool.

that’s not what they’ve been using to sell the game to the crowd, though.

Bayonetta is all about gun on boots, hair demons that make the PC nude and librarian glasses on saucy witches.

it’s ridiculous. it might play very well, but the tone of the game is ridiculous.

 

[Euphor!a]

I think what you're bringing up is a different issue. I'm not saying difficulty is bad, I'm saying creating a game where it takes someone more than 5 hours to understand the mechanics of the game is (probably) due to poor gameplay decisions. I'm at a disadvantage in this argument because I haven't actually played it. I'm just saying the idea of someone defending a game's lack of clear direction or instructions is simply a defense of bad game mechanics.

Except that isn't the case with Demon's Souls, the only mechanics you don't understand within the first 5 hours of play are the mechanics you don't care enough to understand for whatever reason, there is absolutely nothing in the game you should be completely oblivious to in 5 hours of play time.

 

[Amir0x]

that’s not what they’ve been using to sell the game to the crowd, though.

Bayonetta is all about gun on boots, hair demons that make the PC nude and librarian glasses on saucy witches.

it’s ridiculous. it might play very well, but the tone of the game is ridiculous.

welcome to Japan and the gamers who are weeaboos

 

[Felix Lighter]

Your definition of "straightforward" matches Demon's Souls perfectly. The game's design is quaint. It's not confusing, and it's not unfair. You are alive. You collect souls. If you die, you corpse run. You can die infinitely many times. Game progression is non-linear, linked by a hub world. That's the entirety of Demon's Souls.

It's not obtuse or complicated. It really isn't. As far as "streamlining" is concerned, I don't think the game's mechanics are complicated. There are no stats that are outside of typical RPG parlance. There are no unreliable or broken game mechanics.

The game IS, however, challenging, but again it is not unfair. You play the game and you learn to get better or you continually fail. The combat is slow enough and the enemies telegraph all of their attacks. There are items that regenerate your mana and your HP, and they stack.

Demon's Souls is not a game for people that want to run straight through a level whacking everything in sight. It punishes you when you die. So you have to try not to die. That's the entire mechanic. It's not made more or less difficult because of that. Change the mechanic, change the game. The game is already more than generous with offering numerous health items and shortcuts.

I will say that I really disagree with the idea that chess is more analogous to any modern game than to Demon's Souls. Unlike in chess, the majority of games lack any consequence for any actions taken by the player, offer infinitely many doevers for the simplest of tasks, and do not reward learning the game.

I'm all for making games accessible, but I do not think Demon's Souls is particularly inaccessible. It doesn't do anything tricky.

That's pretty much what I got from the video. Vinny, playing the game, wasn't really complaining about how complicated the game was. He actually seemed to be enjoying the game but was explaining how difficult and punishing it can be. It opened my eyes to what the Demon's Souls really is and I'm still cautiously interested in the game.

 

[Gilgamesh]

that’s not what they’ve been using to sell the game to the crowd, though.

Bayonetta is all about gun on boots, hair demons that make the PC nude and librarian glasses on saucy witches.

it’s ridiculous. it might play very well, but the tone of the game is ridiculous.

Yeah, true. I can get into an over the top presentation, though. I got a good laugh from what they showed.

 

[TheLegendary]

Your definition of "straightforward" matches Demon's Souls perfectly. The game's design is quaint. It's not confusing, and it's not unfair. You are alive. You collect souls. If you die, you corpse run. You can die infinitely many times. Game progression is non-linear, linked by a hub world. That's the entirety of Demon's Souls.

It's not obtuse or complicated. It really isn't. As far as "streamlining" is concerned, I don't think the game's mechanics are complicated. There are no stats that are outside of typical RPG parlance. There are no unreliable or broken game mechanics.

The game IS, however, challenging, but again it is not unfair. You play the game and you learn to get better or you continually fail. The combat is slow enough and the enemies telegraph all of their attacks. There are items that regenerate your mana and your HP, and they stack.

Demon's Souls is not a game for people that want to run straight through a level whacking everything in sight. It punishes you when you die. So you have to try not to die. That's the entire mechanic. It's not made more or less difficult because of that. Change the mechanic, change the game. The game is already more than generous with offering numerous health items and shortcuts.

I will say that I really disagree with the idea that chess is more analogous to any modern game than to Demon's Souls. Unlike in chess, the majority of games lack any consequence for any actions taken by the player, offer infinitely many doevers for the simplest of tasks, and do not reward learning the game.

I'm all for making games accessible, but I do not think Demon's Souls is particularly inaccessible. It doesn't do anything tricky.

Fair enough. As usual, it's best not to speak unless you speak from experience . I'll hold off on any more comments until I get a chance to play it. Sounds like it might actually be exactly what I'm looking for.

As far as my comparison to chess, I was thinking of a game like Madden, which, due to the demographics of this website, is woefully underrated. It's as skill intensive as you'll find in a mainstream game. It's one of the only console games where strategy and planning are paramount to success and where understanding each of your pieces and their roles on the field is necessary if you're playing a skilled opponent. Having your pieces in the wrong position means you're going to be taken advantage of by any competant player. There are no do-overs...you pick a play and either execute it or fail...and then attempt to recreate your success/avoid repeating failure on the next play.

EDIT: I was speaking about Vinny's difficulties with the game after 5 hours of playing, based on the video. As I said above I have not played the game. Evilores comment's about "streamlining" just struck a nerve.

 

[Calcaneus]

To be fair to the guys in the quick look, I don't think they really suggested that the game was cheap all that much. They agreed that the game was just difficult, and that just didn't appeal to some of them.

 

[fistfulofmetal]

that is the first time i've ever even seen Demon's Souls. thought it was like a JRPG or something.
looks pretty cool. great idea to it. probably wouldn't have the patience for it tho.

 

[Y2Kev]

Oh, I totally agree with regards to Madden. It's under appreciated because of the demographic here, but all fans of game design I'm sure love the tight balance and care put into making the game work properly.

I would say that it takes a lot longer than 5 hours to understand all the plays and functions of all the different audibles and hot routes and smart routes in Madden, interestingly enough!

EDIT: I was speaking about Vinny's difficulties with the game after 5 hours of playing, based on the video. As I said above I have not played the game. Evilores comment's about "streamlining" just struck a nerve.

Yeah, I wasn't replying to you on that. I was just addressing the idea that you MUST be alive in the game or else it demonstrates some kind of fundamental obtuseness on the part of the game. I didn't agree.

 

[FFChris]

Yeah, true. I can get into an over the top presentation, though. I got a good laugh from what they showed.

I'm not sure why some people are so taken aback by the crazy tone of the game, we've been playing odd and ridiculous game for years.

I think people are a bit embarrassed about the female protagonist and the over the top sexual themes more than anything else. If the games character was a rugged guy, in a cape, in a dark landscape fighting hell demons with the same combat system people would be loving it.

Demons Souls looks like the kind of game I'd dive deeply into. Looks horribly frustrating, but the character and equipment progression would keep me going back for more.

 

[grandjedi6]

This. I never really understand the uproar when somebody doesn't share an opinion on a game unless they are obnoxious with it and beat it into the ground.

50% over-defensiveness and 50% Conform or die

 

[popsicle_sundays]

Dude, wtf is wrong with you? That was just a quick look from a guy who spend just a couple of hours with the game. Chill the fuck out.

Going to have to agree with him. I spent a good 90 hours on my imported version and it's one of the best games I've ever played. It seemed like they were bashing the game for being difficult, when it really just requires strategy and brains. Yes it is a difficult game but it is also a very rewarding game with a deep customization for your stats and how you spend your souls, not to mention the crafting system.

I guess it's unfair to jump down their throats for a quick look, but let's hope the review of the game isn't with this attitude.

 

[Justin]

Going to have to agree with him. I spent a good 90 hours on my imported version and it's one of the best games I've ever played. It seemed like they were bashing the game for being difficult, when it really just requires strategy and brains. Yes it is a difficult game but it is also a very rewarding game with a deep customization for your stats and how you spend your souls, not to mention the crafting system.

I guess it's unfair to jump down their throats for a quick look, but let's hope the review of the game isn't with this attitude.

It has been said many times already but the guy playing the game likes it.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

this is just for entertainment guys, it really isn't serious business, jesus :lol

 

[Kandrick]

Going to have to agree with him. I spent a good 90 hours on my imported version and it's one of the best games I've ever played. It seemed like they were bashing the game for being difficult, when it really just requires strategy and brains. Yes it is a difficult game but it is also a very rewarding game with a deep customization for your stats and how you spend your souls, not to mention the crafting system.

I guess it's unfair to jump down their throats for a quick look, but let's hope the review of the game isn't with this attitude.

No they were not bashing the game. They were just saying that the game is hard, and that you cant just rush it, which is true. And Vinny and Dave did seem to be interested in the game.

 

[Kagari]

that is the first time i've ever even seen Demon's Souls. thought it was like a JRPG or something.
looks pretty cool. great idea to it. probably wouldn't have the patience for it tho.

Well, it is a RPG, from Japan...

 

[birdman]

this is just for entertainment guys, it really isn't serious business, jesus :lol

Doesn't uproar like this happen whenever ANY high profile game is put on Quick Look?

 

[EviLore]

As I said above I have not played the game. Evilores comment's about "streamlining" just struck a nerve.

Streamlining strikes a nerve for me too. It leads to scenarios like Deus Ex ---> Deus Ex Invisible War, System Shock 2 ---> Bioshock, Baldur's Gate 2 --> KotOR, ad infinitum, i.e. extreme regression of game mechanics to appeal to the widest possible audience at the expense of people capable of appreciating some complexity.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

this reminds me of Zero Punctuation threads. It's all fun and games until someone prods the sacred cow.

let's see if GAF can overthrow the Matrix Online community for the biggest Giant Bomb related outcry!

 

[Y2Kev]

this reminds me of Zero Punctuation threads. It's all fun and games until someone prods the sacred cow.

let's see if GAF can overthrow the Matrix Online community for the biggest Giant Bomb related outcry!

How does parting the seas to bring us words of peace and wisdom and lording over us idiotic game plebs not tire you out?

 

[SaitoH]

I had no problem with the Demon's Souls quicklook. In fact, I was quite entertained. Jeff in particular, was absolutely horrified by the game, which I found pretty funny. Though I was hoping Brad would be playing for the video. haha

ps. My main character is a level 134 knight (not that it matters, but I love the game)

 

[Deleted member 30609]

How does parting the seas to bring us words of peace and wisdom and lording over us idiotic game plebs not tire you out?

god complex.

oh, also daddy issues.

 

[Tamanon]

I don't get it....they didn't say the game was bad, or not fun. Just that it was hard and harsh. True statements that even fans would agree with, that's the only reason the game even sticks out is that it's much harder than any other 3rd person RPG. It's like an old school PC game.

 

[elrechazado]

I don't get it....they didn't say the game was bad, or not fun. Just that it was hard and harsh. True statements that even fans would agree with, that's the only reason the game even sticks out is that it's much harder than any other 3rd person RPG. It's like an old school PC game.

qft, all this outrage that someone didn't gush about how life changing this game is seems a bit embarrassing.

 

[Shurs]

that’s not what they’ve been using to sell the game to the crowd, though.

Bayonetta is all about gun on boots, hair demons that make the PC nude and librarian glasses on saucy witches.

it’s ridiculous. it might play very well, but the tone of the game is ridiculous.

I agree.