Support NeoGAF

[Raistlin]

You are correct. I apologize for overgeneralizing,

No prob

but we were discussing the lower tier 606. When I say I'm a Denon guy I also mean on the mid range recievers. I don't generally spend a ton of money (800 bucks or so) on recievers since they improve so often, so I'm usually in the mid-range and much prefer Denon's or Yamaha's in that price range to Onkyo's.

Oddly enough on the extremly low end (HTIB kinda stuff) Onkyo's are usually some of the best stuff you can buy. Not that any of it is good :lol

Onkyo sets a minimum bar for general sound quality that tends to be a bit higher than what many of the other CE’s offer. Because of that, their low-end models tend to be quite good compared to its peers. They get the important stuff right.

Now for mid-range, I’d say this is where you typically see the greatest variation between a given manufacturers models … even from year to year. One year a few will be awesome, the next, all turds What makes it interesting is that it is typically cyclical. Generally when you’re in the part of a cycle where new technology is just trickling into the mid-range, some models will cut corners in other areas (sound quality is one unfortunately) in order to add the new tech yet keep similar price-points to the previous year’s models.

So in this case, the lower-mid to mid range Onkyo’s, you had a case where they all got HDMI 1.3 with support for the new HD audio codecs. In order to fit all that in there and keep the price comparable to the previous year’s models, the sound quality suffered (or at least wasn’t upgraded to better DAC’s, etc. that some of the competition has moved to in their price-competitive models). Actually, it isn’t unheard of that models end up sounding worse than the previous model when in this part of the cycle.

It should be noted that this situation is pretty typical with practically all CE’s, at least to varying degrees. This is especially true of the companies that tend to push the envelope with features/tech. For example, Sony has seen this situation many times (they really push tech, since they R&D tons of it themselves ). One year they’ll have a mid-range that’s amongst the best-in-class, then the next, it adds some new tech but sounds like a brass ass.

The good news is that as you move away from that point in the cycle, the cost of the new tech goes down, and more time/money can be dedicated to improving everything else; sound quality, UI, etc, all while keeping the same price. We just happen to be witnessing a cycle where A LOT of new (and relatively expensive) tech is getting thrown in all at once. Much moreso than any I can remember. Don’t even get me started about the condition of video scaling in many of these units.

Basically, expect plenty of turds for the next model year or two, and then things will settle out.

The issues with their amps and the HDMI popping are more universal though. I dont know about the extremely high end since so few on AVS actually go that far.

Yeah, I have heard my fair share of complaints with those issues (though HDMI problems are fairly universal with everyone >_<).

As for the extremely high-end, I wouldn’t really call Onkyo, Onkyo Professional, Integra’s lineup that. They aren’t priced very high at all (for what they do). The Onkyo 705 on up, Onkyo Pro 885, and Integra 9.8 threads actually have a lot of traffic. The models are pretty popular and have seen pretty strong sales.

 

[Raistlin]

I cant even begin to imagine what that does to the pic. Does it scale the interlaced signal to 480p and post-process? Or is it just for convenience so you don't need any analog connections?

What many don’t realize is that scaling is generally a somewhat easy process. That isn’t to say there aren't variations amongst scalers (for example Lumagen’s ringing-free tech is awesome), but what I mean is that the current base level is quite competent. So even what you see in a typical upscaling DVD player isn’t all that bad.

What an external scaler gives you is quality post-processing (for example, they many times divide noise reduction into MPEG, random, mosquito, etc. amongst other filters, post-processing, etc.), and the real heavy lifting of the game … deinterlacing.

I can’t claim to be an authority on the matter, but if you do some research on it, you’ll be amazed at just how complicated it is. Strangely, video (30fps), not film, is the real disaster. It’s amazing how many things can go wrong.


Getting back to 480i, having a digital connection that outputs the raw DVD data to an external processor specializing in deinterlacing allows you to get a superior picture. Motion artifacts be damned! Now back in the day of component output, the only way to do this was via an SDI (interface type) ‘mod’ to a player. You’ll see many legacy scalers that offer SDI inputs just for this usage. An SDI mod basically had a digital out that was connected directly to the player's MPEG decoder, and simply grabbed the raw fields as they were buffered from the disc.

Once HDMI came about, a few companies started offering 480i output that way, though a number of them weren’t doing it right. Some processing was still going on (in some cases, it was still being deinterlaced first :lol), so SDI was still preferred. However, most of the few players that do 480i via HDMI now (oppo 980 for example) are offering the untouched fields from the DVD.




In interesting side note is that 1080i output from a player isn’t bypassing deinterlacing. You can’t go from 480i to 1080i. What's actually happening is 480i -> deinterlacing -> 480p -> scaling -> 1080p -> interlace filer -> 1080i

 

[Raistlin]

Cool. Are you using it in stereo or surround?

Surround

Im not going to be running any video what so ever on it so im not concerned with the video processing. I'll be doing just CD's SACD's and maybe DTS/DVD-A depending on how it works with 2 channel stereo.

I think you'll be quite happy with it. The thing is an amazing transport.

Also Im still hesitant with that receiver and the oppo because of the limitation of needing a sub out for my two polks and how all of that is going to work with regards to 2 channel SACD etc.

I'd have to look into what ways it can be configured. Are you saiying you don't have a sub, and are worried you'll be missing some of the audio?

 

[Mr. Spinnington]

Amazon has Batman Begins for $17

don't forget The Gotham Knight!

 

[Lhadatt]

As long as we're still derailing this thread for equipment discussion...

What's a good budget receiver unit that does all those newfangled codecs? This was probably asked before, but I'm looking for the quicky summary, not a whole new discussion.

And by budget, I mean "under $400 or as low as possible without being crap."

 

[edible_candle]

How is the picture quality and sound on Twister? I kind of have a soft spot for that movie, and its on sale for $20 at target.

 

[mattiewheels]

Digital Bits says Fritz Lang's Metropolis and Wong Kar-Wai's Fallen Angels are coming to Blu-Ray in 2009 courtesy of Kino.

ok, does it really take a YEAR to get 2 movies into blu ray format?

 

[VanMardigan]

How is the picture quality and sound on Twister? I kind of have a soft spot for that movie, and its on sale for $20 at target.

The video is good, not great. It has some inconsistencies where it'll look really good then really average. Easily better than the dvd, of course. The audio is pretty amazing. I remember my speakers getting quite the workout. I'm sure if you're patient you can score it for cheaper. It's the kind of title that's bound to be included in sales.

 

[captive]

Surround
I think you'll be quite happy with it. The thing is an amazing transport.

Sweet.

I'd have to look into what ways it can be configured. Are you saiying you don't have a sub, and are worried you'll be missing some of the audio?

Worried ill be missing some of the audio. Ill have it hooked up from the front left and right to that receiver but there is no sub in on receiver, but a sub out. So then would it be just getting the sound for the fronts with no sub?
I dont want my floor standers to become LSi9's on stands.



Ditto on what Van said on Twister.

 

[RaidenZR]

So seems like for every pm i've gotten about the 606, Onix posts something to indirectly invalidate my positive feelings on it. :lol

That's cool though. I wish I had the knowledge, the desire, the living room space to justify one, and, most importanty, the cash to go tiers higher. Most people don't or can't think of blowing $1200+ on one of these suckers right now so I think the bottom line is that for 400 and change, it's a damn-awesome box that does more than most of the competition.

Onix, in 5 years when I'm thinking of upgrading, I might PM ya.

 

[captive]

So seems like for every pm i've gotten about the 606, Onix posts something to indirectly invalidate my positive feelings on it. :lol

That's cool though. I wish I had the knowledge, the desire, the living room space to justify one, and, most importanty, the cash to go tiers higher. Most people don't or can't think of blowing $1200+ on one of these suckers right now so I think the bottom line is that for 400 and change, it's a damn-awesome box that does more than most of the competition.

Onix, in 5 years when I'm thinking of upgrading, I might PM ya.

Hey dont let it get to you, we have some people here are hardcore about their A/V.

Me? Im a tweener, i recognize that there is loads of nice gear that i would like to have but cant justify it, especially knowing the ridiculous markup on "high end" audio equipment. So i go for the deals. I got my 705 for $550, which I hear is still a very good price to get it at. I got my real nice Polk Lsi25's on clearance for about a third of what they would normally cost.

I think the 606 will be fine for your needs, the 705 is great for mine and my dads. We actually have my dads with VERY little breathing room(we had it at less than an inch of breathing room on the top) for almost year now and it hasnt once over heated, when it probably should have.

Just give it plenty of room to breath and you should be fine.
If it works for you go for it.

 

[VanMardigan]

I don't know, but I think that since these new audio formats are directly tied to high definition discs, it's about as relevant to the thread as discussing HDTV's to watch the movies on.

And while we're on the subject, what do you guys use for surround speakers? I currently have a 6.1 setup, but the surrounds are the weakest link (small RCA's). Also, what speaker wires do you guys use/recommend?

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I'll need new speakers, too-- I'm hoping for somethign small and ceiling-mountable. Not a big bass guy, so I should be OK.

I think I'll check out the 705 as well. That's an older generation but higher level, yes?

 

[captive]

I don't know, but I think that since these new audio formats are directly tied to high definition discs, it's about as relevant to the thread as discussing HDTV's to watch the movies on.

And while we're on the subject, what do you guys use for surround speakers? I currently have a 6.1 setup, but the surrounds are the weakest link (small RCA's). Also, what speaker wires do you guys use/recommend?

I use RTi4 bookshelves that were just discontinued for the RTiA4 line from Polk. What are your fronts and center? You want to match at least brand with your fronts, but its not as important as matching your center and fronts.

I'll need new speakers, too-- I'm hoping for somethign small and ceiling-mountable. Not a big bass guy, so I should be OK.

I think I'll check out the 705 as well. That's an older generation but higher level, yes?

Yea its last years model. I preferred it over the 605 because it has more DSP's for signal processing - which means it can matrix 5.1 into 7.1. It had ten more watts per channel(not a huge deal). It has two fans on the front that will kick on at 130 degrees. And i didn't see the price difference between the 805 and the 705 as worth it for what you get.
Here is the AVS thread on the 705. It has a plethora of info.

a little info on 606 vs 705.

 

[Raistlin]

Worried ill be missing some of the audio. Ill have it hooked up from the front left and right to that receiver but there is no sub in on receiver, but a sub out. So then would it be just getting the sound for the fronts with no sub?
I dont want my floor standers to become LSi9's on stands.

Can't confirm this (I'm away right now), but I believe it can be configured for no sub.

So seems like for every pm i've gotten about the 606, Onix posts something to indirectly invalidate my positive feelings on it. :lol

That's cool though. I wish I had the knowledge, the desire, the living room space to justify one, and, most importanty, the cash to go tiers higher. Most people don't or can't think of blowing $1200+ on one of these suckers right now so I think the bottom line is that for 400 and change, it's a damn-awesome box that does more than most of the competition.

Onix, in 5 years when I'm thinking of upgrading, I might PM ya.

I didn't mean to imply it was a piece of shit, I wouldn't expect that ... was just agreeing with Stooge that some of its peers have better DACs. That doesn't make it terrible though.

 

[VanMardigan]

I use RTi4 bookshelves that were just discontinued for the RTiA4 line from Polk. What are your fronts and center? You want to match at least brand with your fronts, but its not as important as matching your center and fronts.

I have Sony bookshelfs and a Sherwood center. Not sure about the model numbers. I'm not worried about matching the surrounds at all, just improving over my current crappy set which are basically HTIB surrounds.

 

[captive]

I have Sony bookshelfs and a Sherwood center. Not sure about the model numbers. I'm not worried about matching the surrounds at all, just improving over my current crappy set which are basically HTIB surrounds.

Well in that case go audition some with some music and movies your familiar with and pick what you like for your budget.

 

[SlaughterX]

As long as we're still derailing this thread for equipment discussion...

What's a good budget receiver unit that does all those newfangled codecs? This was probably asked before, but I'm looking for the quicky summary, not a whole new discussion.

And by budget, I mean "under $400 or as low as possible without being crap."

This does multichannel PCM from HDMI, which is all you really need if you plan on using a PS3...

 

[RaidenZR]

I didn't mean to imply it was a piece of shit, I wouldn't expect that ... was just agreeing with Stooge that some of its peers have better DACs. That doesn't make it terrible though.

I know. This is all in the good spirit of being informative and helpful to the fellow HD neighbor. I'm all for the wealth of opinions on the matter. This is my first real receiver though, and my first real piece of audio equipment in 13 years (that was the last time I bought a stereo) so you'll have to forgive what appears to be my easily-impressed nature on the matter. I mean, I've heard and been near good surround systems before, but have never been an owner and ruler of one. My setup gives me what I need and I was happy for the investment I had to make in order to achieve it. I think this is the overall thing everyone needs to pursue, as everyone has differing needs, tastes, and habitats.

I appreciate the people here who are much more audiphile-ish than me, though. Gives me good stuff to refer back to when I want to step up my game. And now that I've tossed my hat into the ring, so to speak, I'll be much more specific and critical with future dips into this territory.

 

[captive]

Ask and ye shall receive!

1408 on blu-ray, September.

Loved this movie when I saw it in theaters.

 

[Forsete]

Ask and ye shall receive!

1408 on blu-ray, September.

Loved this movie when I saw it in theaters.

I have the EU-version, pretty good quality.

 

[SlaughterX]

I'll need new speakers, too-- I'm hoping for somethign small and ceiling-mountable. Not a big bass guy, so I should be OK.

I think I'll check out the 705 as well. That's an older generation but higher level, yes?

I have these for my surrounds and I've been pretty pleased with them, you can give them a listen at Circuit City if there is one near you... I linked the white ones because they seem to be much cheaper than the black ones now for some reason, you can buy different colored grilles though...

 

[VanMardigan]

Well in that case go audition some with some music and movies your familiar with and pick what you like for your budget.

That's not possible where I live, so that's why I was asking for suggestions.

 

[Lhadatt]

This does multichannel PCM from HDMI, which is all you really need if you plan on using a PS3...

Yes, I have a PS3. So, wait...

The PS3 is decoding the TrueHD and all that crap, outputting it to PCM to this receiver, and the receiver doesn't touch the audio at all other than to spit it out in surround?

This is all I need? I don't need some 606, 707, 737, or 777 like the rest of these guys are talking about?

 

[captive]

That's not possible where I live, so that's why I was asking for suggestions.

Damn I knew you didnt have that option. My bad.

Whats you budget like? I'll look around for some stuff. My friend is pretty happy with his Boston acoustic setup, all bookshelves. I love my polk Rti4's.

 

[edible_candle]

Yes, I have a PS3. So, wait...

The PS3 is decoding the TrueHD and all that crap, outputting it to PCM to this receiver, and the receiver doesn't touch the audio at all other than to spit it out in surround?

This is all I need? I don't need some 606, 707, 737, or 777 like the rest of these guys are talking about?

The PS3 lacks the hardware necessary to bitstream (send the encoded TrueHD or Master Audio as-is) over HDMI, so it has to decode it and send the PCM to the reciever. There's no loss in quality. So yeah, if you are just going to be using a PS3, there's no need to buy a reciever that can decode TrueHD, MA, etc. because the PS3 will do it for you.

 

[Lhadatt]

The PS3 lacks the hardware necessary to bitstream (send the encoded TrueHD or Master Audio as-is) over HDMI, so it has to decode it and send the PCM to the reciever. There's no loss in quality. So yeah, if you are just going to be using a PS3, there's no need to buy a reciever that can decode TrueHD, MA, etc. because the PS3 will do it for you.

Sweet. Thanks, and you too Slaughter! I'll probably get that one. It's cheap, it looks like it will work with my existing speakers, and seems like a good unit per reviews.

 

[Costanza]

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...ets_September_Launch_for_Firefly_Blu-ray/1860

Fox Sets September Launch for 'Firefly' Blu-ray
Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:00 PM ET
Tags: Disc Announcements, TV on High-Def, Fox (all tags)

In news sure to thrill Browncoats, Fox has set a late-September touchdown for Joss Whedon's cult classic 'Firefly.'

As previously rumored, Fox had been planning a next-gen release for the short-lived but much-beloved series for months, though the studio had stopped short of confirming a release window.
ADVERTISEMENT

Now, in an early announcement to retailers, the studio has scheduled a complete series set of 'Firefly' (the show ran for only one season) on Blu-ray for September 23.

There are no supplemental details available as of yet, but early retail listings indicate tech specs featuring 1080p/AVC MPEG-4 video and an English DTS-HD Lossless Master Audio 5.1 Surround track.

An official press release is expected shortly, so we'll certainly keep you posted as further word comes to us.

Suggested list price for the Blu-ray has been set at $89.95.

You'll find preliminary specs for 'Firefly' linked from our Blu-ray Release Schedule, where it's indexed under September 23.

 

[Lhadatt]

$90? WTF?

 

[Decado]

It's Fox

 

[Lhadatt]

I'll buy it for $60. No more.

And I'm pretty sure it will be less than that at retail.

 

[TheWolf]

$90? I'll stick with my DVD set.

 

[broadwayrock]

ok, does it really take a YEAR to get 2 movies into blu ray format?

Well in the case of Metropolis, the Murnau foundation have not even begun the HD transfer of the best possible elements + restoration of the film yet so its just a case of Kino announcing their release of it very early.

Its probably a similar case with Fallen Angels as Kino will be licensed a hd transfer once remaster + colour timing has been done on the film.

 

[Geoff9920]

I know I originally said I'd buy the Firefly Blu-Ray on Day 1, but 90 bones? I think I'll wait till the price goes down.

edit: Just noticed that amazon has it for ~$63. That's a bit better.

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

Weinstein is back:

Man, I bought the DVD version the the B&W copy of the film on it because I didn't think it'd be on BRD.

 

[Dan]

It cracks me up how people still don't understand that suggested retail price is always significantly higher than what you'll find it for at bulk retailers.

 

[DarkJediKnight]

I have these for my surrounds and I've been pretty pleased with them, you can give them a listen at Circuit City if there is one near you... I linked the white ones because they seem to be much cheaper than the black ones now for some reason, you can buy different colored grilles though...

Why did you mount them so high? The ideal listening position would be about 2 1/2 feet higher than where your couch is now.

 

[Oni Jazar]

$90? WTF?

I got the DVDs for $18 for my Father on Father's day.

 

[speculawyer]

Fry's has more nice $9.99 HD-DVDs including Full Metal Jacket, The Shining, Pan's Labyrinth, etc.
http://newspaperads.mercurynews.com/ROP/ads.aspx?adid=6511440&advid=32664&type=

The spoils of format war.

 

[SlaughterX]

Why did you mount them so high? The ideal listening position would be about 2 1/2 feet higher than where your couch is now.

Well that door is in the way...

 

[Downhome]

I got the Sweeney Todd UK steelbook Blu-ray in the mail today! Wow, what a release, and that steelbook is fantastic.

I also got Full Metal Jacket and The Descent in the mail today.

Do we have any sort of trade thread around here just for movies and the sort? If any of you have any that you'd like to unload then let me know. I'm in a buying mood if the price is right.

 

[Raistlin]

I know. This is all in the good spirit of being informative and helpful to the fellow HD neighbor. I'm all for the wealth of opinions on the matter. This is my first real receiver though, and my first real piece of audio equipment in 13 years (that was the last time I bought a stereo) so you'll have to forgive what appears to be my easily-impressed nature on the matter. I mean, I've heard and been near good surround systems before, but have never been an owner and ruler of one. My setup gives me what I need and I was happy for the investment I had to make in order to achieve it. I think this is the overall thing everyone needs to pursue, as everyone has differing needs, tastes, and habitats.

I appreciate the people here who are much more audiphile-ish than me, though. Gives me good stuff to refer back to when I want to step up my game. And now that I've tossed my hat into the ring, so to speak, I'll be much more specific and critical with future dips into this territory.

Cool ... no prob

 

[Zombie James]

For you guys complaining about $90 for the Firefly set...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0018QI5UM/panandscathed-20

 

[prodystopian]

Watched The Departed last night on BD. Looks fantastic and the movie is incredible.

I remember reading the movie was supposedly based on an asian trilogy. If so, has anyone seen them? Does the Departed follow the story closely? I'm interested in how they continue the story. Are the originals good/worth watching?

 

[Downhome]

Yeah, The Departed is based on the Chinese trilogy Infernal Affairs. All three have a 7.0 or above on IMDB, with the first one on the top 250 list.

Here is a review of the first IF film on Blu-ray. It is an import, but it is indeed region free.

I believe there's an entire Blu-ray set of all three films out there also.

If you enjoy The Departed, it's worth it to track down the original trilogy.

 

[FnordChan]

I remember reading the movie was supposedly based on an asian trilogy. If so, has anyone seen them? Does the Departed follow the story closely? I'm interested in how they continue the story. Are the originals good/worth watching?

The Departed is based directly on the flick Infernal Affairs. I thought Infernal Affairs was quite good, though the tone and pacing (it clocks in at 90 minutes, a full hour shorter than the Departed) are quite different. However, the plot and the characters are more or less the same. I think The Departed is better, but that could simply be a result of having seen it first. In any case, Infernal Affairs is well worth watching. I can't comment on the sequels, but I'm told they're quite good.

FnordChan

 

[KZObsessed]

My Dirty Harry box set came today in all it's dirty glory! Amazing packaging! That's how you do a collector's edition. Will watch the first one tonight!

 

[prodystopian]

Thanks, guys. I'll see if I can rent them first.

 

[mattiewheels]

there was a lot of good news today on the digital bits..........here's the most important stuff to me:

"Also coming in time for the holidays from HBO, just as we anticipated, is the Band of Brothers mini-series on Blu-ray Disc. All of the previous DVD extras will be included, along with new bonus content exclusive to high-def. The new extras will include In the Words of Easy Company, a dynamic, optional picture-in-picture commentary by the surviving Easy Company veterans, and In the Field with the Men of Easy Company, an interactive field guide charting a path from the storming of the beaches on D-Day to the assault on Hitler’s Eagle’s Nest."

"A Casablanca: Ultimate Collector's Edition box set is also coming to both DVD and Blu-ray Disc. Both will include 40 minutes of special features, 2 feature-length commentaries, branded travel-related premiums, a photo book, and much more. "

awesome awesome awesome.

 

[deadbeef]

there was a lot of good news today on the digital bits..........here's the most important stuff to me:

"Also coming in time for the holidays from HBO, just as we anticipated, is the Band of Brothers mini-series on Blu-ray Disc. All of the previous DVD extras will be included, along with new bonus content exclusive to high-def. The new extras will include In the Words of Easy Company, a dynamic, optional picture-in-picture commentary by the surviving Easy Company veterans, and In the Field with the Men of Easy Company, an interactive field guide charting a path from the storming of the beaches on D-Day to the assault on Hitler’s Eagle’s Nest."

YES YES YES YES YES!!!!