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"The human eye can't see above 24 fps"

This is true, i played some Gamecube/XBOX games recently that are locked at 30fps and they didn't feel as bad on the 26 inch CRT TV as 30fps modern games do on my bigger LCD 32 inch. Maybe it's the ghosting of the LCD that adds to the damage, i'm not sure.

It's called sample and hold without strobing that effect is always there on fixed pixel displays without it.

On crt the effect if pixel persistence is basically microseconds without strobing you always have anywhere from 2ms-16ms of image retention which to people with good eyes is insane amount of temporal resolution loss. With strobing we get insanely close like 2-.8MS which is enough for gamers like myself.

CRTs are not equal to fixed pixel displays in this area and is one of the few advantages that they hold without a doubt vs newer tech.

An article like blurbusters gysnc input lag goes in depth on it.There are other articles too that examine but I find it sad gamers get misinformed on how refreshrates benefit them even if your fps isn't equal to the max rate you're using.

I will be waiting ages before I get a bright properly colored monitor that has good motion like a crt. We are getting close but it's a pain having to settle on 6 different features that can really make your games pop or suck depending on their quality or performance ability. Hopefully next gen sony and ms allow high refreshrates considering the immense benefit they can provide to console otherwise stuck at 30fps mostly. More clarity is better period.
 
Reminds me of this

IGN.gif

This never gets old. They are, after all, owned by FOX.
 
Yuppppp.

I hate when people post "that" chart saying when x resolution is "worth it".

I'm not sure about "that" chart in particular (don't remember what it says), but distance and size certainly does matter. No human is going to be able to tell the difference between 480i and 4K on a 32" TV 100 meters away. That's obviously an exaggerated example, but just extrapolate from there. You do have to either increase the TV size to X" or move to within Y meters from it before 4K actually is worth it. The same is true in your living room. Depending on how good your eyesight is, 4K isn't gonna be a noticeable improvement over 1080p if the TV is too small or too far away. This is just simple logic.
 
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-highest-frame-rate-fps-that-can-be-recognized-by-human-perception

"24 frames per second is about the speed that you stop being able to see jerkiness"
"50 frames per second is the flicker-fusion rate"
"70 fps starts to get to the point where you really could not see any frame change or flicker at all, even out of the corner of your eye..."
"The retina, however, is analog -- the brain dos not process vision as "frames". So it is possible that even higher frame rates could change visual perception in certain circumstances."
-Paul King, Computational Neuroscientist
I question his interpretation of flicker-fusion rate. The flicker-fusion rate isn't 50-70 frames per second, it's a 50-70 hertz flicker. If you're alternating black and white frames, that corresponds (more or less) to 100-140 fps.

Yeh OP, a lot of people still seem to think it's true. Very strange.

Interesting article...
http://amo.net/nt/02-21-01fps.html
This misinterprets the implications of seeing a flashed image. There's no temporal distinction happening; you could shorten the flash to a smaller and smaller time frame and make it brighter and brighter, and the people would still be able to see the image.

Similarly:

Does the fact that you can see a star in the night sky mean that your eyes can resolve the width of the star? No. If there were two of a distant star next to each other, it would just look like a single slightly brighter star.

Yuppppp.

I hate when people post "that" chart saying when x resolution is "worth it".
The especially big issue is that people bring up the chart when discussing rendering resolution.

It's possible to build useful charts for spatial clarity, but rendering artifacts make it a much more complicated problem without simple answers.
 
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-highest-frame-rate-fps-that-can-be-recognized-by-human-perception

"24 frames per second is about the speed that you stop being able to see jerkiness"
"50 frames per second is the flicker-fusion rate"
"70 fps starts to get to the point where you really could not see any frame change or flicker at all, even out of the corner of your eye..."
"The retina, however, is analog -- the brain dos not process vision as "frames". So it is possible that even higher frame rates could change visual perception in certain circumstances."
-Paul King, Computational Neuroscientist

so, we need cybernetic eyes to really see the frames?
 
With today's flicker-free displays, framerates up to several-thousand frames per second would still be noticeable improvements.
We haven't seen diminishing returns yet. Every time you double the framerate starting from 30 FPS is a very noticeable difference in smoothness, responsiveness/latency, and motion clarity.
Now you could argue that you don't necessarily need framerates that high to achieve very smooth motion, but it requires that we go back to driving displays in an "impulse" fashion that strobes the image once per frame to improve motion clarity, rather than being flicker-free.

"24 frames per second is about the speed that you stop being able to see jerkiness"
24 FPS only ever looked smooth with a film projector that used a single shutter.
As soon as double or triple shutters were used, motion in film at 24 FPS stopped appearing smooth.
And now that our televisions do not flicker at all, motion is worse than ever before - if you are not using interpolation.

Making displays flicker-free requires that the framerate is significantly higher than before to achieve smooth motion.

Caution: low framerate flashing images.
Here is an animation which should demonstrate this effect.
It assumes that you are viewing it on a flicker-free display - most LCDs, OLEDs, and other non-plasma or non-CRT displays.

Both circles are moving back and forth at the same low framerate.
The upper circle is being displayed without any flicker.
The lower circle only appears every 6th frame, which causes it to flicker.

If you cover up each circle with your hand, you should see that the lower circle appears to be moving considerably smoother than the upper circle.
You may also see ghosting or double-images in the upper image, which are not present in the lower image.
That is the effect of low image persistence, compared to full-persistence or "sample-and-hold" displays that don't flicker.
It's the reason why motion even in 60 FPS games is not as clear or fluid on today's LCDs or OLEDs as it used to be on a CRT display.

"50 frames per second is the flicker-fusion rate"
"70 fps starts to get to the point where you really could not see any frame change or flicker at all, even out of the corner of your eye..."
Yeah, about that...

The reason the Hobbits movies looked so bad was because the frame rate was too high and people got sick in the theater.
Don't blame framerate for a bad movie.
It looked worse at 24 FPS.

Cameras panning horizontally through forests (or any series of vertical standing poles or objects) still look flickery, juddery messes. I so wish 48fps (or higher) would become the new standard.
They should really move to 60 or higher.
Moving to 60 would be smart, since nearly every television can display a 60Hz signal.
Pretty much nothing officially supports 48, though some might sync to that if they support 50Hz (PAL) and have a wide enough tolerance.
Anything else requires new TVs, AV Receivers, and potentially other equipment.

I suppose this is why I needed to turn that Motion enhancing option off on all TVs since 120+ rates. That damn "Soap Opera Effect". My eyes can't handle that level of smooth on a TV.
Give it a week or two to adjust, and you may find that you have a difficult time going back to watching TV or movies without it.
Interpolation is imperfect - it is going to introduce artifacts with complex motion.
However I would argue that even with those artifacts it's far better to watch a movie with it enabled than not, unless your TV is doing a really bad job of it.

I have set up a test before which displayed a 24 FPS movie on a CRT that is actually refreshing at 24Hz - or you can use higher refresh rates like 72Hz with two black frames inserted between every image for an effective 24Hz.
It flickers a lot, but looking past that, motion ends up perfectly smooth.
It's so smooth that when you switch from 48Hz to 24Hz it looks as though someone switched on interpolation - except an analog CRT can't do that.
As soon as you start to double or triple flash the image for 48Hz or 72H though, that effect disappears completely and you are left with the awful juddering motion that everyone associates film with today.

Don't believe anyone that tells you interpolation is not how film is supposed to look - since displaying 24 FPS with a single strobe per frame on a projector or a CRT results in motion that looks very similar.
Interpolation is just a bandaid to help with the fact that movies have stuck to 24 FPS for so long, despite the move to higher refresh rate displays, and now flicker-free displays - when the framerate should have increased with each of those changes.
 
I think that perhaps better displays and image quality would make the difference more noticeable as well. I also wonder what kind of numbers they were playing with, it could well be that they simply had no experience with consistent 30fps at the time.
 
I think this all comes down to a persons age and brain to eye, eye to brain process properties that have individual differences in the population

Some really do see the difference, and some really dont
 
anybody want my Switch? all those 60fps games, what a waste

hell even Zelda runs at 30fps most of the time. at least there are a few areas that seem to hit that 24fps sweet spot.

some of these devs need to get their shit together

I'm sure third party ports will more than satisfy you going forward.
 
With today's flicker-free displays, framerates up to several-thousand frames per second would still be noticeable improvements.
We haven't seen diminishing returns yet. Every time you double the framerate starting from 30 FPS is a very noticeable difference in smoothness, responsiveness/latency, and motion clarity.
Now you could argue that you don't necessarily need framerates that high to achieve very smooth motion, but it requires that we go back to driving displays in an "impulse" fashion that strobes the image once per frame to improve motion clarity, rather than being flicker-free.


24 FPS only ever looked smooth with a film projector that used a single shutter.
As soon as double or triple shutters were used, motion in film at 24 FPS stopped appearing smooth.
And now that our televisions do not flicker at all, motion is worse than ever before - if you are not using interpolation.

Making displays flicker-free requires that the framerate is significantly higher than before to achieve smooth motion.

Caution: low framerate flashing images.
Here is an animation which should demonstrate this effect.
It assumes that you are viewing it on a flicker-free display - most LCDs, OLEDs, and other non-plasma or non-CRT displays.

Both circles are moving back and forth at the same low framerate.
The upper circle is being displayed without any flicker.
The lower circle only appears every 6th frame, which causes it to flicker.

If you cover up each circle with your hand, you should see that the lower circle appears to be moving considerably smoother than the upper circle.
You may also see ghosting or double-images in the upper image, which are not present in the lower image.
That is the effect of low image persistence, compared to full-persistence or "sample-and-hold" displays that don't flicker.
It's the reason why motion even in 60 FPS games is not as clear or fluid on today's LCDs or OLEDs as it used to be on a CRT display.

Yeah, about that...



Don't blame framerate for a bad movie.
It looked worse at 24 FPS.


They should really move to 60 or higher.
Moving to 60 would be smart, since nearly every television can display a 60Hz signal.
Pretty much nothing officially supports 48, though some might sync to that if they support 50Hz (PAL) and have a wide enough tolerance.
Anything else requires new TVs, AV Receivers, and potentially other equipment.


Give it a week or two to adjust, and you may find that you have a difficult time going back to watching TV or movies without it.
Interpolation is imperfect - it is going to introduce artifacts with complex motion.
However I would argue that even with those artifacts it's far better to watch a movie with it enabled than not, unless your TV is doing a really bad job of it.

I have set up a test before which displayed a 24 FPS movie on a CRT that is actually refreshing at 24Hz - or you can use higher refresh rates like 72Hz with two black frames inserted between every image for an effective 24Hz.
It flickers a lot, but looking past that, motion ends up perfectly smooth.
It's so smooth that when you switch from 48Hz to 24Hz it looks as though someone switched on interpolation - except an analog CRT can't do that.
As soon as you start to double or triple flash the image for 48Hz or 72H though, that effect disappears completely and you are left with the awful juddering motion that everyone associates film with today.

Don't believe anyone that tells you interpolation is not how film is supposed to look - since displaying 24 FPS with a single strobe per frame on a projector or a CRT results in motion that looks very similar.
Interpolation is just a bandaid to help with the fact that movies have stuck to 24 FPS for so long, despite the move to higher refresh rate displays, and now flicker-free displays - when the framerate should have increased with each of those changes.
This is a fantastic post. The film industry needs to read this.
 
We had a thread the other day with people
Nintendo fans
arguing that the human eye can't perceive resolutions higher than 1080p lol
We had infinite posts on GAF were "Sony fans" and "Xbox fans" claimed performance was just fine for games hitting well below 25fps while the Nintendo guys swore by their 60fps WiiU games. So?
It has almost always nothing to do with being a fan of such and such but everything to do with having different standards.
God I hate stupid consoles war shitposting...
 
Personally I think this stuff about framerate and resolution are just ammunition for fanbases. Go look at how fps being lower than 60fpa is fine but then make a complete 180 when a competing product does the same thing.

Also screw people saying you need low resolution for VNs. I need my hi res art/sprites tyvm.

Also surprised no one brings up pre-HD soaps. That 30fps (45fps?) action.

We had a thread the other day with people
Nintendo fans
arguing that the human eye can't perceive resolutions higher than 1080p lol
are you that guy from the Switch 720p ui thread thinking that "720p is fine even if the screen is 1080p because it's just an ignorable home ui that you don't see anyway and that the game still outputs a higher res" equates to "we don't care about high resolution!"

ib4 posts claiming I'm a fanboy

We had infinite posts on GAF were "Sony fans" and "Xbox fans" claimed performance was just fine for games hitting well below 25fps while the Nintendo guys swore by their 60fps WiiU games. So?
It has almost always nothing to do with being a fan of such and such but everything to do with having different standards.
God I hate stupid consoles war shitposting...

go look his post history, it's hilarious
 
http://testufo.com/#test=blackframes&count=3&bonusufo=1&equalizer=1&background=000000

This is a better example by the way.

It has long been known that flicker can reduce motion blur. It is why CRT displays still have less motion blur than most LCD displays. Some 120Hz monitors have a strobe backlight that eliminate motion blur. Motion blur reducing strobe backlights (e.g. LightBoost) puts black periods between frames, and is more efficient than this software-based black frame insertion. The motion blur you see is caused by eye-tracking (sample-and-hold), see related TestUFO: Eye Tracking Motion Blur Demo.
Some emulators (MAME, WinUAE) use this technique for 60 fps on 120 Hz monitors. See www.blurbusters.com/mame

For most LCD, the half framerate animation creates a 50%-50% duty cycle of flicker, which reduces motion blur by approximately 50% on most LCD's.
For CRT and LightBoost, this animation is more dramatic, since it eliminates the double-image effect (30fps@60Hz with the clarity of 60fps@60Hz).
Also, this animation flickers more on 60Hz monitors (bad 30Hz flicker), while it looks much better on 120Hz monitors (better 60Hz flicker).

If course the downside to this is less perceivable brightness (you can turn the brightness normaliser off if you wanna compare) but it helps with clarity completely.

The whole "cinema is 24fps and it's fine" thing is very misleading when people think it applies to our flicker-free displays.

So yes, with our modern displays, you do require very high refreshrates. Essentially, on a 144hz display I am able to see the UFO moving at 960 pixels per second with clarity here: http://testufo.com/#test=framerates at 100hz it isn't enough. At 480 pixels per second 60hz isn't enough.
 
Unbeknownst to that author, 24fps was chosen for movies because it was the *minimum* framerate found to make each frame persist to the next in the majority of viewersÂ’ visions, so there wouldnÂ’t be people seeing movies as flickery, juddery messes.

The actual human eye limit is 25fps.

The human eye is far more tolerant to low frame rates. You still perceive continuity of motion at 15fps (which is where a lot of animation is shot at twos). Depending on the content you can even go as low as 10fps.
 
The human eye is far more tolerant to low frame rates. You still perceive continuity of motion at 15fps (which is where a lot of animation is shot at twos). Depending on the content you can even go as low as 10fps.

Have a look at this: http://testufo.com/#test=framerates&count=5&background=stars&pps=240
It is simply not true.

Even slowing this test down to 120 pixels per second, there is a clear difference between say, 100hz, 50hz and 25hz (where it doesn't look clear like a the UFO would be if it's still unless it is in the upper region).
 
I didn't expect to see a PC master article from 1998 on GAF.

I don't think a lot of people knew any better back then. Getting 30 was still a challenge with early 3d games anyway.
 
Have a look at this: http://testufo.com/#test=framerates&count=5&background=stars&pps=240
It is simply not true.

Even slowing this test down to 120 pixels per second, there is a clear difference between say, 100hz, 50hz and 25hz (where it doesn't look clear like a the UFO would be if it's still unless it is in the upper region).

That is a test of scrolling, it's not at all a relevant measure for what media people actually consume. It also starts conflating problems with critical speeds with problems with the frame rate itself. And unless you have a variable refresh rate monitor it's also introducing other issues.

Unless all anime and hand-drawn animation is utterly unwatchable for you.
 
Just a few years ago it was a battle to get people over here to admit that they could see over 30fps. It's a pretty prevalent viewpoint to have when you are stuck on limited hardware.
 
That is a test of scrolling, it's not at all a relevant measure for what media people actually consume. It also starts conflating problems with critical speeds with problems with the frame rate itself. And unless you have a variable refresh rate monitor it's also introducing other issues.

Unless all anime and hand-drawn animation is utterly unwatchable for you.

You don't need a VRR monitor utilise this test.

Obviously, interpolation in film etc. can be part of the encode, but the idea that 15fps is fine for viewing is false.

Also, there's a reason why Disney Animation was considered top-tier way back.
 
TestUFO is a great site, but that's a demo of the blur reduction properties of black frame insertion.
Not a comparison of motion smoothness between sample-and-hold and black frame insertion, which was the point of my example.

That is a test of scrolling, it's not at all a relevant measure for what media people actually consume.
It's directly related to games, or any kind of media where the camera is not 100% static. Or where something moves across the screen.

Unless all anime and hand-drawn animation is utterly unwatchable for you.
It is unwatchable to me without using interpolation when they show panning images.

Have a look at this: http://testufo.com/#test=framerates&count=5&background=stars&pps=240
It is simply not true.
Even slowing this test down to 120 pixels per second, there is a clear difference between say, 100hz, 50hz and 25hz
Anything faster than 120px/sec begins to blur on my 100Hz G-Sync monitor. It really is shocking how bad motion clarity is on today's displays.
60Hz displays are even worse, and a faster response time like OLED has doesn't really help.
On my TV though, when I enable 240Hz interpolation and backlight scanning, 1920px/sec motion is crystal clear.
Unfortunately my TV doesn't have a mode that only uses backlight scanning, it has to combine the two - so it's not suitable for gaming due to the high latency.
 
TestUFO is a great site, but that's a demo of the blur reduction properties of black frame insertion.
Not a comparison of motion smoothness between sample-and-hold and black frame insertion, which was the point of my example.

It's directly related to games, or any kind of media where the camera is not 100% static. Or where something moves across the screen.

It is unwatchable to me without using interpolation when they show panning images.


Anything faster than 120px/sec begins to blur on my 100Hz G-Sync monitor. It really is shocking how bad motion clarity is on today's displays.
60Hz displays are even worse, and a faster response time like OLED has doesn't really help.
On my TV though, when I enable 240Hz interpolation and backlight scanning, 1920px/sec motion is crystal clear.
Unfortunately my TV doesn't have a mode that only uses backlight scanning, it has to combine the two - so it's not suitable for gaming due to the high latency.

ITT: People don't know what the fuck critical speeds are, and don't understand how you can still have smooth pans at low frame rates.
 
ITT: People don't know what the fuck critical speeds are, and don't understand how you can still have smooth pans at low frame rates.
I am aware of critical panning speeds.
Try watching any movie with panning shots in it and you can still see the image strobing and juddering when you use a flicker-free display, despite the controlled panning speeds and the considerable motion blur present.
Those same panning shots look significantly improved with interpolation to 120 FPS or higher, and get even better when you combine that with backlight scanning or similar blur reduction techniques.
Only very slow panning shots don't have this problem.

Games move significantly faster than film.
With 2D games you can calculate the speed in pixels per frame very easily.
Running fast in Sonic 2 moves at 12px/frame for example, which is 720px/s.
12px/frame is a complete blur at 60Hz on a flicker-free display.

And that's an old 2D game. 3D games where you have direct control of the camera can move at significantly higher speeds than that.
 
Werent 90s computer CRT monitors more sophisticated than analog TVs back then? Because picture quality differences were vast. Some models supported up to 200hz refresh rate. Though not many games could reach 200fps. LCD monitors limited refresh rate to 60 hz for years before newer models started surpassing that number. This also affected PC games to a great degree.

Dot pitch and bandwindth were also important and there was also a degauss button.

Even up to the DC/PS2/Xbox/GC era, analogue TVs werent made for fast paced 3d games
 
I am aware of critical panning speeds.
Try watching any movie with panning shots in it and you can still see the image strobing and juddering when you use a flicker-free display, despite the controlled panning speeds and the considerable motion blur present.
Those same panning shots look significantly improved with interpolation to 120 FPS or higher, and get even better when you combine that with backlight scanning or similar blur reduction techniques.
Only very slow panning shots don't have this problem.

Games move significantly faster than film.
With 2D games you can calculate the speed in pixels per frame very easily.
Running fast in Sonic 2 moves at 12px/frame for example, which is 720px/s.
12px/frame is a complete blur at 60Hz on a flicker-free display.

And that's an old 2D game. 3D games where you have direct control of the camera can move at significantly higher speeds than that.

Is black frame insertion the only way we are going to have these old games looking like they once did?

Its a shame that games these days force motion blur (and very bad implementations of it).
 
It's more about locking the framerate than anything else.

You can notice FPS spikes and dips, even between 60 and 100fps.

If you can lock your framerate at like 50 fps, you won't notice much of anything because there are no dips or peaks to compare anything to. You get a consistent image.
 
Werent 90s computer CRT monitors more sophisticated than analog TVs back then? Because picture quality differences were vast. Some models supported up to 200hz refresh rate. Though not many games could reach 200fps. LCD monitors limited refresh rate to 60 hz for years before newer models started surpassing that number. This also affected PC games to a great degree.

Dot pitch and bandwindth were also important and there was also a degauss button.

Even up to the DC/PS2/Xbox/GC era, analogue TVs werent made for fast paced 3d games
Despite being limited to 60hz, regular CRT TVs are still better than LCDs, at least the ones that are also limited to 60hz. Not sure about the higher refresh rate ones since i never seen one in person to compare.
 
Unless all anime and hand-drawn animation is utterly unwatchable for you.
Since you mentioned animation, yes, cheap TV anime is unwatchable to me.

Also, camera movement/panning is usually independent of the actual animation of the characters. It's usually smoother or else it would be unbearable in cheap TV shows with shitty animation.

Also watch a "frame by frame" animation and then compare it to a "regular" one.

How many frames is the minimum acceptable depends on each person.

Sorry for DP.
 
1600x1200 monitors started becoming reasonably affordable when Quake 3 rolled around just a couple of years later. It was the 4K of its day.
My screen could handle that but only at 60 hertz. And I could actually see the frames refreshing at 60 hertz on the desktop, I couldn't handle it.

The perfect compromise was playing Quake 3 at 45 fps in 1280*1024 on my geforce2 gts 64.

It was the golden age of pc gaming for me, I'll never forget the fun I had attending LANs. So much fun.
 
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