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[CannonFodder52]

No one is saying that we should have to babysit Ellie, that she should be like Ashley or that she is not a strong independent character.
But even in Army of Two I felt more connected to the ai companion via the gameplay.

 

[Ravelle]

That school part.

Joel: Okay guys keep absolutely quiet not to startle anything, I can't stress enough that we can't make any noise, so use super stealth.
Bill: HEE HAW MOTHERFUCKER *shoots shotgun at anything he sees*

 

[Pankratous]

Same thing happens in Uncharted 4. I think if Sam/Elena runs RIGHT in front of an enemy then they are spotted, but otherwise the enemy vision distance for them is like two meters.

 

[PK Gaming]

AZ always slays me

 

[ScaryShark]

And it's better than having no kind of communication possible with companions as far as believability goes.

Are you trying to refute that characters not being recognized by enemies in this relatively serious game is jarring? Or just that you don't care? If it's the latter, we believe you. The former? Still not convinced.

I'm playing a video game and in the game's rules, the enemies only care about the character I'm controlling. That's why it isn't jarring. There is no barrier in the gameplay caused by something out of my control and that is far and away my preference compared to

a) Ellie controlled and commanded by me (how anyone thinks this is more 'immersive' is puzzling and it goes against Ellie's characterization)
b) Ellie completely hanging back and being irrelevant in the combat situation (kills the character building of Ellie as someone capable and willing to help in survival)
c) Ellie being a perfect AI companion that moves and reacts like an actual human would in a video game that started development in 2009 on PlayStation 3 (impossible and I'm still searching for the game that actually does this in a way that placates those that this is a big deal for)

Given the technology and my dislike of escort stuff, ND seems to have made the best compromise. Never in my way. Never an annoyance. Helpful.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

No one is saying that we should have to babysit Ellie, that she should be like Ashley or that she is not a strong independent character.
But even in Army of Two I felt more connected to the ai companion via the gameplay.

Exactly. There are quite a few games that do it better than TLOU, and surely ND could make it work.

Same thing happens in Uncharted 4. I think if Sam/Elena runs RIGHT in front of an enemy then they are spotted, but otherwise the enemy vision distance for them is like two meters.

And that was a step up from TLOU. They stayed out of enemy sight in more believable ways too.

 

[ScaryShark]

That school part.

Joel: Okay guys keep absolutely quiet not to startle anything, I can't stress enough that we can't make any noise, so use super stealth.
Bill: HEE HAW MOTHERFUCKER *shoots shotgun at anything he sees*

Only if you're spotted first.

 

[Boney]

Imagine. The only thing worse than escort levels/segment would be a stealth escort segment.

Make it underwater and you get MGS2

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I'm playing a video game and in the game's rules, the enemies only care about the character I'm controlling. That's why it isn't jarring. There is no barrier in the gameplay caused by something out of my control and that is far and away my preference compared to

a) Ellie controlled and commanded by me (how anyone thinks this is more 'immersive' is puzzling and it goes against Ellie's characterization)
b) Ellie completely hanging back and being irrelevant in the combat situation (kills the character building of Ellie as someone capable and willing to help in survival)
c) Ellie being a perfect AI companion that moves and reacts like an actual human would in a video game that started development in 2009 on PlayStation 3 (impossible and I'm still searching for the game that actually does this in a way that placates those that this is a big deal for)

Given the technology and my dislike of escort stuff, ND seems to have made the best compromise. Never in my way. Never an annoyance. Helpful.

A) "I need you to stay here and cover me so we don't die" and her saying "sure" isn't against her characterization.
B) no one is saying she should always hand back or hide in a dumpster. having some semblance of communication and coordination with the human being you're traveling with? That would be better than
C) it being understandable due to the tech it was built on does not keep it from being silly and incongruent with combat, cutscenes and normal exploration.

There was also a game that came out 8 years prior to TLOU on even weaker hardware that was marginally better in that regard.

 

[funkystudent]

In TLOU 2 they should totally add a harder difficulty where your AI partner can alert the enemies just to see how much people REALLY want it.



It was totally a choice to compromise immersion in favor of not making the game a 20 hour escort mission and I think most people will agree they made the right choice.

 

[Heckler456]

Leaving a 14 year old girl by herself doesn't make logical sense, within the narrative, when there are cannibal rapists and zombies abound. You always stick together. Besides most of the time they're making their way through enemy territory. Again, it wouldn't make narrative sense to leave your partner at the start of whatever combat arena, progress your way through, and the have to double back to get here. Logically speaking, the point is that you're always on the move, because reinforcements are always right around the corner.

Also, frankly, it is patently ridiculous to argue that having the ability to sick your AI partner in a single location while you deal with all the enemies is somehow more conducive to character building than having the partner AI right beside you at all time, talking to you and helping you fight. Evidently the little niggle of the that AI glitch didn't end up being that big of a detriment, because like 85% of people who played the game absolutely loved it.

 

[ScaryShark]

A) "I need you to stay here and cover me so we don't die" and her saying "sure" isn't against her characterization.
B) no one is saying she should always hand back or hide in a dumpster. having some semblance of communication and coordination with the human being you're traveling with? That would be better than
C) it being understandable due to the tech it was built on does not keep it from being silly and incongruent with combat, cutscenes and normal exploration.

There was also a game that came out 8 years prior to TLOU on even weaker hardware that was marginally better in that regard.

a) Yes it is. She's fiercely independent and isn't just obedient towards this man she just met. The game repeatedly shows her disobeying Joel. It's a part of the story. They don't get along for a lot of the game and Joel is severely emotionally repressed. He's doing the bare minimum to accomplish his goal.

https://youtu.be/3aJencAOYG4?t=52s

b) Why are Ellie and Joel some well oiled machine that would be able to be something akin to a spec ops team? Do they have a sign language or jargon down already? This seems to go against the 'immersion' that is being argued for.

c) So you're asking for something that was impossible for the time? Okay, but I don't really see the point. They did the best version of what they were capable of making and made compromises that best fit the story they were telling and how they wanted you to feel towards a character. Still waiting on the examples of a game that actually does this in a satisfactory manner and checks all the boxes that people want in here.

 

[Plum]

I don't get the argument that the singular alternative being worse makes the immersion breaking moments both not an issue and unsolvable (even with the PS3's limitations). TLoU is not perfect and things that directly break the game's rules and story consistency should be almost definitely be an "issue" with the game that TLoU2 can improve on.

 

[InsaneTiger]

It really is true: Snickers satisfies.

lol

 

[The Strokes]

You can completely turn off the UI or customize it to your liking. I don't remember if that was in the game at launch but it is now.

Really? I need to check this out then. Thanks!

 

[Chronospherics]

Reading LoU is really weird to me. The common acronym is TLOU, so that didn't make any sense to me when first reading.

As far as it being immersion breaking. Sure, it is, but it's as immersion breaking as AI is bad in every game.

• In Breath of the WIld enemies follow predictable patterns, and they're locked to an agro range that you can manipulate so that they can't attack you.
• In Horizon enemies have the same agro limit, and for advanced AI and machinary, they have incredibly large blindspots
• In Ghost Recon, again, your companion AI can't be spotted if you're in stealth. It's worse here as all four of your team mates will be in plane site, so there's a much larger opportunity for this to spoil immersion
• In Doom, the enemies are purely reactive, exhibiting very little dynamic or variable behaviour

Naughty Dogs AI is actually some of the better AI in gaming. They move around, flank etc, independently. Communicating with each other and exhibiting relatively complex behaviours, independent of one another, yet at the same time, appearing as if they're working together to take the player character down. The only AI I've really been relatively happy with in these type of video games has been from Uncharted, Killzone, and Fear.

There is no easy way to resolve the issue with Ellie's detection in TLOU, and it's not the result of bad AI. Ellie follows Joel, and therefore, she is a trailing hitbox that can be detected. Making her detectable would require the player continually anticipate her movement. It would make the game, and stealth in particular, several folds more difficult than it currently is.

By not having you worry about her character, you're better able to focus on Joel's role in the game. I don't see how having to continually concern yourself with what the AI is doing would make the game any more immersive. Sure, it has its flaws, but it's the better option.

 

[ScaryShark]

I don't get the argument that the singular alternative being worse makes the immersion breaking moments both not an issue and unsolvable (even with the PS3's limitations). TLoU is not perfect and things that directly break the game's rules and story consistency should be almost definitely be an "issue" with the game that TLoU2 can improve on.

Every alternative being suggested seems a measure worse than the completely subjective 'immersion breaking' of an AI being seen by the enemy and not reacted to. It's completely negligible to the entire experience for me and far preferable to a game long escort mission or having Ellie be an irrelevant aspect of combat by staying out of the fray.

 

[Plum]

Every alternative being suggested seems a measure worse than the completely subjective 'immersion breaking' of an AI being seen by the enemy and not reacted to. It's completely negligible to the entire experience for me and far preferable to a game long escort mission or having Ellie be an irrelevant aspect of combat by staying out of the fray.

Again, I don't get why alternatives being worse (which is completely subjective) somehow makes this not an issue. A poorly designed aspect of the game breaking established universe rules is as objective an issue as there could possibly be yet it somehow isn't because the drastic alternatives being proposed aren't good for a certain selection of people.

 

[onemanasylum]

Again, I don't get why alternatives being worse (which is completely subjective) somehow makes this not an issue. A poorly designed aspect of the game breaking established universe rules is as objective an issue as there could possibly be yet it somehow isn't because the drastic alternatives being proposed aren't good for a certain selection of people.

Because every game has these issues.....it is really impossible without breaking the game.

 

[Chuck Norris]

While not a perfect solution, I think they could definitely make NPCs visible in TLOU2. Increase their stealth abilities so the likelihood they are spotted is reduced. However if they are spotted, what should happen is the NPC is aware it's their mistake and "makes up" for their mistake by going into a sort of bad ass mode, cleaning up enemies and doing some cool shit

It might at least take out some of the frustration of having to deal with the mistake yourself

They can also make it so that the enemy becomes aware of the NPC but not necessarily of your presence. You might be able to use it as a deception/trap mechanic

 

[ScaryShark]

Again, I don't get why alternatives being worse (which is completely subjective) somehow makes this not an issue. A poorly designed aspect of the game breaking established universe rules is as objective an issue as there could possibly be yet it somehow isn't because the drastic alternatives being proposed aren't good for a certain selection of people.

If solutions being offered up aren't an improvement or a fix, what's the point of the thread? Just to complain?

If the thread was started and then showed an example of what TLOU is doing being done better I wouldn't even be posting in it. I might disagree but I wouldn't be interested in the discussion. As it stands now, I do take exception to a criticism when a solution doesn't exist.

Would TLOU be a better experience if the AI was perfect and acted in a more natural way? Of course. No one would ever refute that.

 

[Plum]

Because every game has these issues.....it is really impossible without breaking the game.

Not every game says "doing x will kill you" then have the AI do that exact thing multiple times; stupid AI is not the same as AI that breaks the game's consistency. That and there are alternatives being proposed in this very thread, there is also the base-level AI improvements that can be done so it's not like it's "impossible."

If solutions being offered up aren't an improvement or a fix, what's the point of the thread? Just to complain?

If the thread was started and then showed an example of what TLOU is doing being done better I wouldn't even be posting in it. I might disagree but I wouldn't be interested in the discussion. As it stands now, I do take exception to a criticism when a solution doesn't exist.

Would TLOU be a better experience if the AI was perfect and acted in a more natural way? Of course. No one would ever refute that.

Well there's your solution, why is this not an issue then? As for the whole thread whining thing, if every thread that was just here to express an opinion was locked there would be very few threads. What could have been an interesting thread on AI in games was almost immediately turned into a litany of completely dismissive posts about the issue without any real discussion.

 

[grosvenor_92]

I think ND made the right decision in making Tess and Elle invisible to enemies. Getting spotted all the time would of been annoying and made it much more of a chore to playthrough

 

[Spring-Loaded]

a) Yes it is. She's fiercely independent and isn't just obedient towards this man she just met. The game repeatedly shows her disobeying Joel. It's a part of the story. They don't get along for a lot of the game and Joel is severely emotionally repressed. He's doing the bare minimum to accomplish his goal.

https://youtu.be/3aJencAOYG4?t=52s

b) Why are Ellie and Joel some well oiled machine that would be able to be something akin to a spec ops team? Do they have a sign language or jargon down already? This seems to go against the 'immersion' that is being argued for.

c) So you're asking for something that was impossible for the time? Okay, but I don't really see the point. They did the best version of what they were capable of making and made compromises that best fit the story they were telling and how they wanted you to feel towards a character. Still waiting on the examples of a game that actually does this in a satisfactory manner and checks all the boxes that people want in here.

A) It isn't at all. In-game dialogue can reflect their relationship and contextualize the "commands" (have there be distrust/apprehension be detectable in their lines early on, then become more trusting over time while being functionally the same throughout), and it would be an option to help with the silly "these things are super dangerous and you can't make a sound but I'm gonna stomp around right in front of it real loud while talking" issue.

B) They aren't idiots incapable of cooperating either. Their capabilities in combat and survival are reinforced throughout the game in gameplay, animation, dialogue, backstory, etc. Saying they wouldn't ever coordinate when faced with the life and death situations ever is just absurd.

C) ND said it was impossible? They very obviously made a concession due to time, money, or whatever because the outcome of NPCs stomping around in stealth sections is so goofy (and defending it is even more goofy) and is incongruous with the story, dialogue and tone of the game. The combat, cutscenes, environments and visuals are generally good at fitting the overall package, so when stuff like this and the sniper segment falls short, it sticks out. And again, RE4 does it better, but no examples of this kind of thing will be satisfactory to you considering you hate it even when it's done well and are completely satisfied with the silly incongruity.

If you can't accept that this was a shortcoming in TLOU that could've been addressed in some way, fine, but this diehard defensiveness of it in a discussion about what could've been done and what could be done in the sequel is just pointless. People bringing up this issue isn't some slap in the face if ND—it shows they care enough about the game to discuss it.

Not every game says "doing x will kill you" then have the AI do that exact thing multiple times; stupid AI is not the same as AI that breaks the game's consistency. That and there are alternatives being proposed in this very thread, there is also the base-level AI improvements that can be done so it's not like it's "impossible."



Well there's your solution, why is this not an issue then? As for the whole thread whining thing, if every thread that was just here to express an opinion was locked there would be very few threads. What could have been an interesting thread on AI in games was almost immediately turned into a litany of completely dismissive posts about the issue without any real discussion.

Someone's gotta defend ND's honor

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

I've always been of two minds about this particular issue everyone always brings up about LoU..

On One hand - to have Ellie act stupid and run out and get caught and the game say "you lost" because of something that i didn't do would be frustrating. It would cause issues all over the game and be a be a sore spot for so many...

But then I think of Freedom Fighters on the ps2. Like 15 years ago or whatever and how good it feels to control 1...or 5..or 10 people in an open environment where deaths matter and the battle feels more like it's on your shoulders. Because your the one making decisions. They die cause you sent them there...

I think naughty dog taking a crack at that formula and having us play as Ellie...who is building a small army to fight the remaining fireflies would be...spectacular.

Sorry I'm at a bar alone and now I wanna go home and play factions. /babble

 

[Jawbreaker]

It was the right compromise to make as to not make the game really frustrating.

 

[psynergylover]

You think you'd get pass Lincoln Mass. with the infected hearing Bills clunky ass shoes!?!?!? A clicker could've head him a mike away!!!

 

[clem84]

ND said they originally had it so your companions could be seen by enemies, but couldn't work out the AI to make it not be frustrating.

That's what I thought of when I read the OP. The game would be too difficult if enemies would react to both characters.

 

[dirron]

I had no issue with the AI not seeing enemies since I understood how awful that would make the gameplay. However there was that spot where you first meet a clicker and it's stressed how important it is to be quiet and as soon as you climb over a small wall the characters resume dialogue in such a loud volume I was upset the clicker didn't come after us. I understand we were technically in a new zone but come on just make them whisper at least.

 

[Neiteio]

The moments where Ellie is scampering around in plain sight give me a good chuckle. Some levity to balance an otherwise dark and depressing game.

 

[Cave Johnson]

If Uncharted 4 can improve encounter rate and AI, I don't see why it cannot be done with TLOU2.

Everything points out to the limits of the PS3, so I won't berate them for the AI's limitations.

 

[squidyj]

I have played Horizon: Zero Dawn and think graphics have been hitting diminishing returns since the PS2, and are plateauing now. What now? What other arbitrary criteria am I not meeting to make your opinion automatically more valid?

60 fps is in most cases a waste of effort and renderers have a very long way to go.
It appears we are at an impasse.

 

[test_account]

When no time is put towards improving it, sure.

It's often said how FEAR AI is better than modern games, and that game is like 15 years old. How has AI gotten worse, let alone not improved?

FEAR doesnt have companion AI, does it? Its been years since i've played it, but i cant recall anything like that at least.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Relax amigo, it wasn't a serious dig at your opinion.

Oh, it was an attempt at humour? My mistake then.

 

[13ruce]

I only played through the game once same with Uncharted games i enjoy them once and never have the desire to replay em.

Still a masterpiece tho but for me there is zero replay value. I don't mind immersion breaking tho it's a video game after all.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Would you have preferred getting spotted because Tess, or Ellie or any other AI companion freaks out in front of an enemy? Like companion AI isn't going to get as good as you want it to be.

This is a pretty good illustration of the problem with writing a relationship-driven story and then trying to shoehorn it into a shooter with stealth elements.

The actual solution is to either not have companion AI at all if you can't fit it into the gameplay, or make something that isn't an action shooter with stealth elements. But ND refuses to compromise their stories for the gameplay (or vise versa), and they invariably end up being lesser than the sum of their parts because of the dissonance.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Would you have preferred getting spotted because Tess, or Ellie or any other AI companion freaks out in front of an enemy? Like companion AI isn't going to get as good as you want it to be.

First post nails my thoughts. It would be maddening if your AI follower kept causing you to replay stealth segments. TLoU isn't the only game with this problem.

 

[Rellik]

First post nails my thoughts. It would be maddening if your AI follower kept causing you to replay stealth segments. TLoU isn't the only game with this problem.

This isn't what OP is asking and I can't believe it took 10 posts for someone to realise it. He just wants the AI to hide with the playable character instead of running around like a headless chicken. Plenty of games have achieved this.

 

[Machina]

This isn't what OP is asking and I can't believe it took 10 posts for someone to realise it. He just wants the AI to hide with the playable character instead of running around like a headless chicken. Plenty of games have achieved this.

Yeah pretty much, which is why I emphasized the need for better AI to allow such designs to be possible without compromising the game's original vision. Something as simple as the enemies having a certain field of view which is triggered by both the player and friendly AI, but they also know not to step foot in that zone if their intended path will inevitably take them through it. Just stay in the current spot they inhabit until that FOV has walked off or otherwise been distracted then keep moving

 

[SovanJedi]

That's fair enough to say the game needs better AI, or at least as fair as it is to just point at a thing and shout "Do better!" as a critic, but AI IS supposed to imitate "actual intelligence", and actual intelligence means... getting spotted and caught because of human errors. And that's still going to mean you'll get penalized for something you yourself didn't do, which is annoying, especially when it's a companion that you can't directly communicate specific details to (and good luck getting THAT coded into the game)

Also I'm thinking in general, Naughty Dog didn't want bumbling, frustrating stealth sections to mar the player's feelings towards Ellie as a character - I mean, how could you try to relate to her situations and her plight if all you can see when looking at her is all the billions of times she fucked up and got you caught because she didn't do exactly what you wanted her to do at all times? I know I wouldn't give a shit about her if that was the case, I would totally

Spoiler

let those cannibals eat her for dinner by the end

.

It may break immersion if you pay too much attention to it, but Ellie and others not triggering enemies was the better of two evils they went with.

 

[jph139]

The argument that AI is immersion breaking in every game doesn't really hold water to me, because not every game is trying to he TLOU.

Like, you bring up Mario - at no point does Mario ever pretend that its enemies are more than just obstacles. Like, there is no biological imperative motivating a Goomba. It's just a thing to jump on.

TLOU is trying to sell a real, living, breathing universe full of real people. Then, in moment-to-moment gameplay, they sort of try to do something else and put that aside - "it's just a game" again. Is Ellie a person I care about or a chunk of code that helps me shoot things? You can't have it both ways.

 

[patapuf]

The argument that AI is immersion breaking in every game doesn't really hold water to me, because not every game is trying to he TLOU.

Like, you bring up Mario - at no point does Mario ever pretend that its enemies are more than just obstacles. Like, there is no biological imperative motivating a Goomba. It's just a thing to jump on.

TLOU is trying to sell a real, living, breathing universe full of real people. Then, in moment-to-moment gameplay, they sort of try to do something else and put that aside - "it's just a game" again. Is Ellie a person I care about or a chunk of code that helps me shoot things? You can't have it both ways.

Like all Systems, a gameplay system abstracts reality. Even simulators aren't 1:1 representations of reality.

ND decided that having simple shooting mechanics and not having to babysit Ellie meant a better playing experience.

I'm pretty sure people people would be way less fond of the game if it had ARMA controls and the AI would react to Ellie, even if the Ellie AI was good. "realistic" firefights against overwhelming numbers aren't really something you win often. Especially not with a little girl tagging along.

 

[CannonFodder52]

edit

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

They made the right choice regarding ai companions

 

[HStallion]

You know Ellie we do break Immersion a lot

 

[Barry Burton]

RE4 handled escorting better than 99% of other games, but at the end of the day, it was still escorting and thus, still not fun to do. Having to protect Ashley, while "more realistic" than how Naughty Dog handled it, is the worst thing about that game.

Seeing Ellie not get spotted by enemies looks stupid, but the end result is a better game than it would be otherwise. Ideally, I'd like to see them further improve companion A.I. to be more discrete while the player is in stealth mode, but all things considered the way they did it is probably the best solution for the game they made.

 

[CannonFodder52]

RE4 handled escorting better than 99% of other games, but at the end of the day, it was still escorting and thus, still not fun to do. Having to protect Ashley, while "more realistic" than how Naughty Dog handled it, is the worst thing about that game.

People aren't asking for this to be an escort mission.
The dream is meaningful interaction with Ellie within the core gameplay.

 

[matrix-cat]

I thought this thread was going to be about the part where Joel steps in a snare and then you have to shoot zombies while hanging upside down with a gun that inexplicably has infinite ammo for that one setpiece. That's the only part of the game that jumped out to me as being super dumb. I think I'd maybe fired a gun once in my entire playthrough up until that point, and suddenly it's basically a boom boom pow turret section.

 

[Barry Burton]

People aren't asking for this to be an escort mission.
The dream is meaningful interaction with Ellie within the core gameplay.

Sure, I just don't know why RE4 was brought up, as it's a really bad example of meaningful interaction.

 

[CannonFodder52]

Sure, I just don't know why RE4 was brought up, as it's a really bad example of meaningful interaction.

I mean, a lot of other arguments and games have been cited here. (Fumito Ueda games are a great example)
Also yea, RE4 Ashley might not be the greatest meaningful interaction, but it's not a game centred on Leon and Ashley's relationship. Even then, at least Ashley is interwoven into the gameplay of the RE4, not just cutscenes and audio cues.

Again, other people cited stuff as embarrassing as the companion cube, which builds it's relationship through gameplay better than TLOU.
This does not mean I am saying Ellie should be a companion cube.