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The Intercept: The Crimes of SEAL Team 6 -- war crimes committed by US Navy SEALs
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Ordinaryundone
Member
I'm pretty sure it does. The fetishism of the elite is not specific to any one culture, military, or even time period. As long as there have been even loose military organizations there have been groups of people who were better at it than others and were set aside for that purpose. The Sacred Band, The Immortals, Alexander's Companions, etc. It goes back to ancient times.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
I'm not the least bit surprised that men who live and breathe warfare are a little fucked in the head.
Just not sure what can be done about it.
Just not sure what can be done about it.
Raven117
Gold Member
Certainly, no argument from me. My comment was more of a commentary on how warfare has changed. House to house CQC....close....
The other part of my comment was simply that these are exceedingly complex questions of where the line is drawn both from a training perspective but from a practical perspective as well.
In the end...without fancy words created to hide the harsh reality (And I will be the farm that all special units have this mentality to some extent the world over)...We created surgical killers, and they performed the tasks we asked.
Ordinaryundone
Member
This is kind of my thought as well. I'm by no means condoning the acts but we aren't that far removed from a time when these guys would be carrying the scalps on their belts and putting the skulls on pikes and that would be considered normal. The notion that war can ever be made into some clean, professional endeavor is a pipe dream at best and blatant propaganda at once; conflict draws out the worst in people no matter who they are or where they are from. It's how they are able to do what they do.
archangelmorph
Member
of course I can see the differences... That's not what I'm drawing attention too...
Can you not see the similarities..?
If an Iraqi civilian's family member is butchered inhumanely by US troops before their eyes...
Then the disgust, anger and hatred pushes them to join up with Al Qaeda, then they inflict the same level of brutality against US soldiers or worse, civilian aid workers or captives...
How can you be morally outraged by one and not the other...?
If war crimes are to be considered OK purely on the basis that they're in our own interests then surely we should respect the fact that interests are relative and either "respect" the war crimes meeted out against us in the name of war, or call fucking abhorrence on all of it...
War crimes are the worst, most disgusting thing that war produces, but if we cannot stand on the moral authority of not engaging with that level of base, inhumane violence when we pursue our own interests of national security through force, then how can we condemn those of our enemies or adversaries for doing the same?
No... They're called "crimes" for a reason, and we should be equally disgusted regardless of whomever the perpetrators are.
It's also ironic given the level of outrage we seemed to have over those surveys that demonstrated a degree of sympathy towards the methods/aims of islamic militants by many moderate Muslims across the world. If we think this shit is ok then we really ought to engage in a little less hypocrisy and a little more introspection going forward surely?
appreciate the thoughts man 👍🏼
Blind hero worship.
They are lethal instruments of the state, they need to be held to higher standards, not lower.
Secret Fawful
Member
And should be subject to accountability. Putting your life on the line doesn't give you carte blanche to mutilate corpses and find gratification in spilling brains over your kill's face.
No, respect for the men that protect our freedom. Everyone could be a keyboard warrior with their indignations, but no one knows how it's like to be out there where everyone wants to kill you.
Not sure if we have any Navy SEALS on GAF, but it's doubtful.
it's actually this type of thinking, internally and externally, that lets these war crimes be committed without accountability.
theignoramus
Member
-The Wedding Massacre was disturbing. Bad enough to have "accidentally" sprayed down a wedding party, even worse for one of the SEALS to have shot one of the last survivors, then stomped his head. These werent terrorist or Taliban, they were innocents caught in a crossfire.
-There were a couple of pure psychotics in that unit & the "no snitching" ethos, prolonged the duration of their disgusting behavior.
-Like with every institution where members prefer self policing and internal discipline over outside mediation, a few bad apples can create an almighty stench & infect the barrel.
-There were a couple of pure psychotics in that unit & the "no snitching" ethos, prolonged the duration of their disgusting behavior.
-Like with every institution where members prefer self policing and internal discipline over outside mediation, a few bad apples can create an almighty stench & infect the barrel.
archangelmorph
Member
Agreed.
You all should take some time out and watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk2-ZXAWkfg
No, they shouldn't be held to higher standards?
And only "keyboard warriors" would get so upset over some trifling war crimes?
Secret Fawful
Member
You don't give an institution respect by letting it run without accountability. Holding an institution to a higher standard is a form of respect.
An institution without accountability isn't worth respecting.
Are you guys in the special forces or the military in general? Do you guys understand what kind of enemy Al Queda was?
It's easy to be a tough guy behind a keyboard.
The training to join the Navy SEALS is held to the highest standards. And even higher for SEAL Team 6.
Seems like they are doing their job well since America is protected and continuously cementing her place as a world superpower.
archangelmorph
Member
In that case, why not go the whole hog?
Send in the chemical weapons and melt the fuckers to death eh?
They're not humans like us after all right?
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Seriously you should watch that video I posted above...
theignoramus
Member
That poster didnt read that article.It wasnt a smear of the whole unit, it paints a picture of a team of elite soldiers whose professional conduct was blemished by a handful of psychotics who werent disciplined appropriately.
Read the whole article hours ago.
No need to be dramatic, and I will watch it later.
They killed the fucker that murdered thousands of Americans, we should be thanking them not writing some dumb article about "transgressions" that are none of our business.
Secret Fawful
Member
No, the officers who didn't resort to barbaric mutilation for no reason are to thank for doing their job. I know several people who served in Iraq and NONE of them would have stood for this shit.
Where are you coming from on this, man? Were you a SEAL? Did you serve? Is that why you're here now?
Neither are you, so why is it ok for you to past judgement on this topic just because it's in favour of them?
Those standards I were referring to were legal and moral ones, i.e. war crimes = no, no!
So again, are you against the idea of soldiers having to follow the law?
hollleeeeeeeeeee shiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeettttttt
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I'll point out again, regardless of what you might feel about the general abuse of corpses, there are distinct reasons why you don't deface the corpse of high-value targets like bin Laden and should not stand for that behavior.
It's not as though they were asked to avoid shooting his face for shits and giggles.
No, I am not strong enough to be a Navy SEAL - those men operate on a whole other level. I just respect anyone that serves their country and don't appreciate when people that don't have experience in the field start judging their actions.
I agree that defacing osama bin trashcans corpse was wrong, but I understand why it could happen emotionally. Those SEALS were representing every single victim that fell during 9/11.
It was a powerful moment.
bobbyrawlins
Banned
Anyone, huh? Do you respect the Nazis? Guess you don't judge them either.
archangelmorph
Member
Which basically means nobody should ever be able to judge their actions though no?
Not even politicians or lawmakers?
It's up the military to punish their own.
Yet you continue to think it's ok to pass judgement yourself...
Do you believe soldiers should follow the law?
Secret Fawful
Member
If you don't hold them accountable, then you aren't holding them to a high standard at all. They still serve us, and reflect us as a people, and it's up to the people to hold them to that high standard.
Head of Vengarl
Banned
This is kinda where I'm at. You can't realistically expect to send people off to war and have everyone behave themselves. We train these people to be killers. Not only that, but I'm sure many (if not most) special forces operatives have at least one friend who died in the line of duty, which just makes them even more likely to do heinous shit out of revenge.
I am in no way condoning war crimes, but I'm just saying this isn't surprising at all.
i think that the article, along with similar examples from other "self-policing" institutions, shows this doesn't really work.
it's how police that shoot unarmed civilians never really face trials or receive substantive punishment. there is not really a way to punish your own.
KeyBladerXIII
Member
It's always the case with these special op/wet works teams. They get the job done, but there's always a couple who turn out to be psychos and go way too far or fuck up royally. Then the rest of the squad or whoever works with them helps sweep it aside until someone else brings it to light.
Dick Couch has a great read, A Tactical Ethic: Moral Conduct in the Insurgent Battlespace, that describes the environment that allows the bad behavior of a minority to proliferate without question. It is very easy to allow the moral decrepitude of a few pervade the group as a whole when in such a tight knit community built on loyalty to the team and organization. I certainly am willing to give a wide berth to the men who work in SOP considering how dangerous and essential it is, but the morality of every operator needs to be emphasized in training to help prevent the emergence of behavior and traditions like this.
Coriolanus
Banned
It is also exceedingly easy to justify grotesque behaviour when you're not the one being subjected to it.
Are you also ok with torture?
What's scary is just how willing people are to accept it. The below is a perfect example.
"They killed the fucker that murdered thousands of Americans, we should be thanking them not writing some dumb article about "transgressions" that are none of our business."
Hand-waving away the evidence, the post-truth technique of putting things in scare quotes to de-legitimize them, the writing off of potential war crimes carried out in our name as "none of our business".
It's so self-evidently wrong that no one could believe it, not even the poster as he was writing it. Just your standard post-rationalisation response in order to rabidly defend an imagined sacred order that bears no resemblance to the reality of the people who actually make up that order.
yeah, the intercept is equivalent to a white power site, ok gocha
This honestly makes my blood boil more than the transgressions themselves did. Fucking shameful.
Raven117
Gold Member
Cheers!
EnlightenedMint
Member
God damn some of this shit is gruesome.
Good on the Seals who talked to the journalist probably hoping for some institutional changes.
Good on the Seals who talked to the journalist probably hoping for some institutional changes.
EdibleKnife
Member
Defending the country doesn't separate a person from personal responsibility. What you're essentially saying is that a Navy Seal who comes back to the US, kills citizens and bathes in their blood is free from judgment. Or your saying that that would be fine as long as it's "over there". Navy Seals are people, not gods and should be treated as people and when they do intentionally horrid things they should be held accountable.
On the basis of rejecting article sources over criteria I've listed, yes.
Try to keep up.
Back-In-Black
Banned
So you rejected and ignored all of his legitimate criticisms of The Intercept to reduce his argument to purely "confirmation bias?"
Banderdash
Member
I kind of wonder if there's some sort of psychological warfare element to their actions...
Like, if you're the OpFor and you go to check why your outpost has gone quiet. Finding all your people shot dead is going to be less disturbing than finding them scalped, amputated, & mutilated... right?
Like, if you're the OpFor and you go to check why your outpost has gone quiet. Finding all your people shot dead is going to be less disturbing than finding them scalped, amputated, & mutilated... right?
might be missing something but i don't really see a huge deal with how many times they shot osama bin laden in the face.
if we're okay with sending special forces into other sovereign countries without their permission to assassinate people living there, we should be okay with how many times those people get shot in the face.
there isn't a 'legit' or kind way to go assassinate somebody.
if we're okay with sending special forces into other sovereign countries without their permission to assassinate people living there, we should be okay with how many times those people get shot in the face.
there isn't a 'legit' or kind way to go assassinate somebody.
I never said its ok, but if there's a group of people whose job it is to find where you live/operate and kill with minimal traces left behind, is it not dangerous to point fingers at people like that? Especially if this group of people doesn't seem to balk at committing war crimes anyway. I didn't say we shouldn't point fingers at them, but I don't think it's unwise or unreasonable to say that those who do should be careful.
Ideally, from a tactical standpoint, the unit's culture should definitely change so that the local populace would be more cooperative with their operations. It's hard for people to come forward with good intel if these units have reputations like this. I think if you frame a culture change from a tactical standpoint, these operators can't argue with the reasoning.
Replace them with unfeeling machines of course.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Psychologically, I get what happened too. It was an emotionally powerful encounter for those operatives, and to boot many of them likely suffer from long-term mental health issues from their time in the field, all of which came to the surface in the defacing of a corpse they were specifically told not to deface.
Just because I "get" why it happened doesn't mean I'm willing to let it slide.
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