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The Last Audio Cassette Factory
- Thread starter Snaku
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PetriP-TNT
Member
There's also the dark side of it. Consider something like Record Store Day: good intentions (I guess?) hi-jacked by major labels. Pressing plants are doing fine, but indie labels are really getting fucked over. Right now plants are once again overbooked due to majors doing 10000 presses of flea market records for whatever the next RSD (black friday?) thing is.
I wish I was joking but I am not. It used to take a few months to get a record pressed. Now it can be like 6.
cloud_sleep
Member
Well for one thing most digital files have a minimum sample rate of 44.1k ie over 40,000 samples a second, which is enough so that the NyquistShannon sampling theorem applies. In other words the sampled sound is captured with perfect fidelity. This has been shown in many blind listening tests. How well it is reproduced at playback depends on the quality of the components used but that is also true for analogue.
I think a lot of vinyl purists just like the tech's inherent harmonic distortion. To some, digital sounds too clean.
Wut?
Do you think audio cassettes are the pinnacle of audio?
They suck ass.
How is playing a PS4 game off of a BluRay disc "scratchy"? What are you even talking about? Cassette tapes are literally scratchy sounding, and they degrade over time, and they get eaten by tape decks, and skipping songs or listen to songs twice in a row is a pain in the ass, and storing them is a hassle.
apocalidiot
Banned
Practically - no. Use your ears, listen with your ears, not looking at charts online. I don't mean this in a condescending way, but in a blind test, I would guess that I would personally have an issue discerning the difference of analog recordings vs digital ones (assuming the variables are controlled) and I deal with audio for a living.
I like listening/buying records, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the sound quality. And if records ever get brought up in a conversation, I am not the person agreeing with the dude that goes "yeah, and vinyl just sounds so much nicer!". Usually when I hear that I keep my mouth shut, or say something like "yeah, I dunno about that stuff, but I like collecting for other reasons"
RoadHazard
Gold Member
The thing is that:
Therefore,analogue (magnetic) track is always more accurate than any digital track.
The usual myth (or just not understanding how music recording and reproduction works). Do you seriously believe a cassette or vinyl recording perfectly reproduces the original sound wave simply because it's analog? It does not. In fact (yes, FACT), it loses much more of the original audio than a digital CD track does. CD is superior to both vinyl and cassette at reproducing audio (FACT), and higher-quality digital recordings are obviously even better.
A band I know of recorded in a studio that had a setup that ran everything through tape and instantly output to Pro-Tools. Best of both worlds, I guess. But that's much different than recording to audio cassette. That just sounds awful. I'm all for analog with musical amplification, but in recording I'm far against it.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Even sound is dependent on the molecules of the material carrying it
How smooth do you need
PetriP-TNT
Member
No, I said exactly the opposite. It doesn't matter for shit if the cassette tapes sound like shit for some people, because for some people takes more to music than just pure audio quality. If tapes don't offer anything for you, don't have to buy or listen them and everyone is happy.
(And sure you can't scratch blurays, but you can fuck up CD's and DVDs obviously. Blurays have their own short comings, like slow optical reading speeds and such).
apocalidiot
Banned
That's cool. That's probably how I would do it if I had the means.... recording via tape and then bouncing that to Pro Tools.
So if they don't sound as good as CD's or even LP's, what is the point? Why would you buy cassettes?
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what digital audio means, there is no stair-stepping in what you are listening to.
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/...n-analog-digital-isnt-what-most-people-think/
You are losing more and introducing noise by recording on magnetic tape, and also on a format that will degrade.
Did you ever actually listen to cassette tapes?
We're not talking some impressive reel-to-reel audio tape. We're talking about shitty cassette tapes.
Terrible, terrible sound that wears out with each play, faster than vinyl, if your tape deck doesn't eat them first.
PetriP-TNT
Member
Because they are cheap, tape decks are cheap, they look nice, they usually sound nice if not technically as good as CDs or LPs and they fit many music styles nicely. I think that either people are underestimating what an audio cassette sounds like or people are absolutely clueless what kinds of music are being created in the year of 2015. Actually it might be both.
mcz117chief
Member
Thank you, guys, for explaining it to me. I am an absolute amateur in this field and everything I know has been taught to me by my dad or brother but now you have showed me that there is more to it than they think (or maybe they know it too but they never bothered to tell me about it). I concede defeat, digital can and is as bit as good as analogue and going back to analogue is a pointless effort.
I get your point, people like nostalgia even if it means they like shittier quality. no need to post obvious examples like that. I'm not oblivious to it.
Dumb disclaimer: I have ears as well.
PetriP-TNT
Member
I'm confused. People were saying that cassettes have a "scratchy" sound to them. Then you say, "sounds like people who play scratchy videos games on physical discs." People weren't saying the cassettes literally had scratches on them.
They don't sound as good, they are nowhere near as convenient, and they degrade the more you listen to them.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Vinyl, I get, and I might start collecting it one day... But Audio Cassette's? I can't get behind that.
PetriP-TNT
Member
I was talking about physical degration myself.
Cheap tape decks have never sounded great. Noise reduction is a necessary thing, you also have to clean the tape heads regularly. There's also degradation in the tape over repeated plays, among other issues. Hell, I remember sometimes if the tape player rewound the tape too fast it would snap the tape when it hit the beginning.
Laevateinn
Member
Someone open a 5-1/4 floppy factory please.
FO-totality
Poet Centuriate
marvel saving audio cassettes
edit: holy shit they mention it in the video too, I was just fucking around :O
Space Dandy saving anime and cassettes
PetriP-TNT
Member
But good thing about tapes is that you can just tape it (as in scotch/transparent tape) it back together no problem what-so-ever. And sure, cheap decks have never sounded good, but it doesn't mean that high quality tape decks cannot be found for cheap in the year 2015. Finding one that works flawlessly is different issue, but they can also be fixed. Cleaning tape heads is easy too. Degradation over repeated plays is an issue, sure, but it's not like they vaporize over few plays.
mcz117chief
Member
Thank you very much for this video. It really is an eye-opener for me. Really impressive video the further it goes. I recommend that everyone watches this.
much better data quality compared to cd's or internet downloads!
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
When you play back the recording those waveforms get converted back into the same smooth line you're showing in the first picture. Sound waves don't have jaggies.
Analogue tape has inherent issues such as hiss and degradation that also affect the sound.
EDIT: DECK'ARD's video explains the same thing.
See the thing is, I don't miss any of that shit. I remember recording songs off the radio that I liked onto tapes, or copying LP's onto tapes. I did all of that, cleaned the tape heads, used Scotch tape for broken tapes. I guess I get that some people that didn't grow up with it (or maybe they did) think it's cool to tinker with something, and more power to them, but I have no desire to fool with that stuff again for what's an inferior product. As far as bands making these tapes, as long as it's not the only way to get their material, I don't care.
Oh, well you can't avoid degradation on cassettes no matter how carefully you take care of them. Plus, they sound like shit right out of the package. You can avoid scratches on discs. I have 15 year old CDs without a scratch on them, and they sound as good as the day I bought them.
PetriP-TNT
Member
See, every one is a winner here. It's not like it's a fight or something.
(I did grow up with tapes and I think it's cool to tinker with stuff).
Well I can't, but it's also not an issue. I have tapes that are 40 years old that sound great to me. I have records that are even older that sound even better. I have cd's that sound great and I have cd's that sound like shit. I have records that sound great and I have records that sound like shit. I have tapes that you can barely recognize and I have tapes that are overdubbed so that the old shit leaks from the background. It's all good man.
apocalidiot
Banned
Here's what I'll say about this - I don't think going back to analog is a pointless effort. Like I said in my first post in this thread, a lot of DIY (do it yourself, underground, indie, whatever label you want to use) bands release tapes as a means to sell their music at shows. I just became aware of this about a year ago. I can only guess as to why its the case - buying a cassette with nice art is a nice way to give out your music, it's more aesthetically pleasing than a pile of CDs, it's where the the scene headed and now it's just common place, etc. I'm sure the lo-fi aspect has something to do with it as well, and another big part of it is probably because people are recording on 4 track tascam recorders (something similar to your situation? If I am not mistaken), so it's already on tape and it's easy to duplicate.
I'm playing a show next week with a band that is releasing their EP at the show, they'll be selling tapes of it. To be honest, I will probably start putting our stuff on tape just to have something to sell to people, if that's what people are more apt to buy (instead of CD's for whatever reason)
cloud_sleep
Member
You're welcome.
No worries, it's quite a common misunderstanding.
Sony even got bollocked by the Advertising Standards Authority in the UK for using it in marketing.
I've recently gotten back into cassettes. Not because they sound better -- but because they make certain music sound more like I remember it when I listened on my crappy stereo as a kid.
When I listen to certain modern bands that are trying to sound like 80s pop (e.g., The Wonder Girls), I've been recording their albums to cassette and then back to digital (losslessly), so I can hear how they might have sounded back then. It's fun.
When I listen to certain modern bands that are trying to sound like 80s pop (e.g., The Wonder Girls), I've been recording their albums to cassette and then back to digital (losslessly), so I can hear how they might have sounded back then. It's fun.
mcz117chief
Member
Yeah, the machine does look very much the same like the one my brother uses. The way my brother sells his cassettes is that he always puts extra effort into packaging. So for example his latest recording is in a black air-tight bag with their logo while the inside of the bag is filled with incense (and the cassette of course which also bears the logo and is all black). So he goes for style like pretty much every other band that does this sort of thing as far as I have seen. One of the cassettes he has at home is basically a cassette wrapped in packaging paper with two big rusty nails on both sides taped to it to act as a stand. Pretty beast looking.
Do something like this
I think some older aircraft had cassette drives for something, I think it was for troubleshooting so their is still a limited market for them there.
Remember several months ago someone was wandering around the airport I work at looking for anyone who could repair a cassette drive from a jet that stopped working.
They must have bought the companies and the equipment they had for pennies on the dollar when cds began dominating and the cassette market crashed and now that there has been a resurgence in cassettes they are the sole manufacturer and they own the market.
Remember several months ago someone was wandering around the airport I work at looking for anyone who could repair a cassette drive from a jet that stopped working.
NAC made quite a gamble but they pulled it off.
They must have bought the companies and the equipment they had for pennies on the dollar when cds began dominating and the cassette market crashed and now that there has been a resurgence in cassettes they are the sole manufacturer and they own the market.
NekoFever
Member
Man I used to love tapes. I lusted after the premium brands, with their premium sounding names. BASF Hyper Gold Ferrite II or some such.
Dad had a two-deck system, so tape to tape was a breeze. I used to like the head cleaning ritual, sitting by the radio trying to record songs as they came on, swearing at announcers when they got in the way of the song, swapping mix tapes with my friends. Good times....
But man, fuck those things. They're shit. I used them because I had no choice. As soon as something better came out, I dumped them.
I can't understand why anyone would want to have to deal with them. Then again, I couldn't understand why people would want to drink out of jars. I guess I'm old fashioned.
Dad had a two-deck system, so tape to tape was a breeze. I used to like the head cleaning ritual, sitting by the radio trying to record songs as they came on, swearing at announcers when they got in the way of the song, swapping mix tapes with my friends. Good times....
But man, fuck those things. They're shit. I used them because I had no choice. As soon as something better came out, I dumped them.
I can't understand why anyone would want to have to deal with them. Then again, I couldn't understand why people would want to drink out of jars. I guess I'm old fashioned.
Nappuccino
Member
The cassettes seem great for small acts who want to do limited physical runs, just to let their fans have something tangible. I wouldn't be surprised if they're cheaper to make than posters or T-shirts in small runs like this.
I honestly don't get vinyl collecting, mainly because we couldn't afford a nice vinyl system. I have no nostalgic attachment to that medium, but the nice art and packaging are appealing. I grew up listening to cassettes, and I could totally see myself going back and listening to my favorite tapes and enjoying them perfectly fine because that's how I grew hearing that music...it's supposed to have that warm fuzzy hiss and flat sound.
Was just rummaging through some storage boxes and found my Ghostbusters soundtrack and No Doubt Tragic Kingdom cassettes. Buying a Sony cd/cassette player off Amazon as a result. I need to hear them again.
Laevateinn
Member
I'm not being sarcastic. I collect computer stuff from the 80s and a lot of old floppies are pretty much worthless. It would be nice if I could make direct copies and still run stuff off the drive rather than a drive emulator.
EdwardTeach
Member
I didnt have a cd player until I was 16-17 (in ~97 so we were tres late on the scene in my house!). This means all my teenage music purchases were on casette. Good memories.
My daughter saw some of my old cassettes I had got out to play in the car and she said they were weird looking cd's!
My daughter saw some of my old cassettes I had got out to play in the car and she said they were weird looking cd's!
maybe pure nostalgia drives this for some but personally I have no nostalgic attachment to cassettes--my first music purchases were CDs and the only tapes I can remember listening to were audiobooks. I do buy cassettes every once in a while though. They're cheap for artists to produce and thus cheap to buy--usually see cassettes for like $5, and if a CD is even an option it'll cost a few bucks more. Plus when I'm paying for music I like to have a physical object, have the cover art and inserts and a colored tape, an object that feels like thought was put into its creation.
The argument "ugh, but the quality is shitty cassette buyers are dumb" is silly because it's not as if I always or even frequently listen via the cassette. these come with downloads, and my primary listening time for any album I have on cassette (or any album in general) is spent with the digital copy. Cassettes just have the aforementioned tangible presence, and the times I actually break them out and listen to them provide the ritual pleasures in a similar way to listening to vinyl: insert tape, press play, side A plays continuously, flip, side B, done. it forces an attentive listening experience.
Obviously it's not an itch everyone needs to scratch; I completely understand a lot of people are happier handing over a few bucks for some lossless files than they are spending a dollar or two more for a tape. but it's not as if the reasons many have for buying tapes, which I'm fairly certain are the same as mine, are entirely brainless.
The argument "ugh, but the quality is shitty cassette buyers are dumb" is silly because it's not as if I always or even frequently listen via the cassette. these come with downloads, and my primary listening time for any album I have on cassette (or any album in general) is spent with the digital copy. Cassettes just have the aforementioned tangible presence, and the times I actually break them out and listen to them provide the ritual pleasures in a similar way to listening to vinyl: insert tape, press play, side A plays continuously, flip, side B, done. it forces an attentive listening experience.
Obviously it's not an itch everyone needs to scratch; I completely understand a lot of people are happier handing over a few bucks for some lossless files than they are spending a dollar or two more for a tape. but it's not as if the reasons many have for buying tapes, which I'm fairly certain are the same as mine, are entirely brainless.
30yearsofhurt
Member
Here's a great video with Ethan Winer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ
It goes into audio myths.
Personally I can't tell the difference in bit depth until you get down to about 10 bits.
I can tell the difference between 44.1kHz and 96kHz but not above that.
It also features Poppy Crum showing how Stairway to Heaven is about satan in a shed when you get told what to hear. Recommended.
A friend of mine runs a small label called Recess Records. He's been doing it for 25 years or so and he pretty much said the same thing that you just described.
it's disheartening hearing some of my favorite labels talk about it. These tiny labels get put completely on the back burner by plants, have their orders screwed up, and have to hope their small audiences won't turn on them after a 4 month delay.
Relevant C&EN article from yesterday. Infrared spectroscopy offers a non-invasive way to predict if old tapes will be playable:
PetriP-TNT
Member
Cool, I own many records released by Recess (from many decades)
On topic: today I got Kylmä Sota discography 2xtape in the mail:
I've been reading up about analog and digital signals for one of my classes and you're wrong. The quantization process will smoothen the digital samples took from an analog source, therefore the signal seen with an oscilloscope won't look like a staircase. The higher the sample rate (ex: 44.1KHz which is used for CDs), the higher the resolution of the sampling therefore the closest it will look to the analog signal even before quantizing it.The thing is that:
Therefore,analogue (magnetic) track is always more accurate than any digital track.
Actually, Montgomery/Xiph mentioned in one of his videos that the lollipop graph (that represents the amplitude levels of a signal) represents far more accurately a digitalized signal.
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