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The Milo Molyneux Thread of SHIT! SciFi Just Got Real

gantz85 said:
None of those are bottlenecks to AI.
Where was I making a 1 to 1 comparison? I was saying that most people would be surprised at what's already being done out there in terms of cloud applications, albeit through next gen private research networks.

Although I suppose there's that one AI lab at one of the UC's (Santa Cruz was it?) that's getting some notice.
 
Talon- said:
Where was I making a 1 to 1 comparison? I was saying that most people would be surprised at what's already being done out there in terms of cloud applications, albeit through next gen private research networks.

Nice edit, glad to see you wimped out.


Anyways, so we agree, none of what you say concerns the bottleneck to the project of developing AI -- or as we call it in the field; Strong A.I. Cloud processing can take away the burden of delivering powerful systems to everyone for an AI simulation but it's not going to change the fact that no one knows how to simulate intelligence, yet.

Actually they're still arguing about the definition of intelligence :lol So that's why so many AI projects nowadays are just about brute-force simulating the brain neuron by neuron or by neuron circuits.
 
gantz85 said:
Nice edit, glad to see you wimped out.

Anyways, so we agree, none of what you say concerns the bottleneck to the project of developing AI -- or as we call it in the field; Strong A.I. Cloud processing can take away the burden of delivering powerful systems to everyone for an AI simulation but it's not going to change the fact that no one knows how to simulate intelligence, yet.

Actually they're still arguing about the definition of intelligence :lol So that's why so many AI projects nowadays are just about brute-force simulating the brain neuron by neuron or by neuron circuits.
Didn't feel the need to be a dick and call you out, so you're welcome. :lol

I freely admit my lack of knowledge about AI research, but the Director at ICAIR I talked to mentioned a colleague that was working on AI during a presentation at one of the UC's. That's really all I'm running off of here in terms of the subject.

The point still stands that technology's always further ahead than the public thinks it is.

But, yes, we were talking about different things, so I don't know exactly why we got into this tiff.
 
Might as well post it here also:

Eurogamer interview with Molyneux

Eurogamer: How long have you been working on Milo?

Peter Molyneux: There are two answers to that. We started work with the Natal stuff in December, and the first thing we did was go round all the Microsoft people - the handwriting recognition people, the facial recognition people, the motion recognition people. We brought the technology together and put it in there.

So the world you see created here has been in development since December. Before that, we'd been working on this thing called emotional AI since we finished the first Black and White.

Eurogamer: Is this what you used to call Project Dmitri?

Peter Molyneux: Yes.

Eurogamer: I'm trying to understand how much of this comes from Lionhead and how much comes from Microsoft...

Peter Molyneux: A lot of stuff, like the voice recognition stuff, is based on things like Windows 7 technology. We just went round and took all that stuff and fitted it together. The interesting thing is, a lot of that stuff existed without reason - and when you bring it all together with something like this, it kind of works.

Eurogamer: One of my colleagues did want me to ask why you made him a 12 year-old boy, and not a nubile 17 year-old lady acrobat?

Peter Molyneux: If we were making a porn game, I probably would do that. He's not 12, he's about 10, and that's before he's hit puberty. Part of the amazing impact of this is he can remind you of your childhood.

Eurogamer: My colleague pointed out that if it was a 17 year-old acrobat, instead of things like 'Have you done your homework?' you could say, 'Will you take your bra off?'

Peter Molyneux: Yeah, you could do. You could make a great porn game with this stuff, that's absolutely for sure. But I'd love the idea that you've got this character who you are inspiring. It is such a wonderful feeling that to inspire anything, whether it's a dog or a person or a kid. When you see and feel that emotion, it's pretty emotional.
:lol :lol :lol
 
Natal's Molyneux & Milo

Seems like some ideas have been compromised already...

Eurogamer: Can you draw a nob? Because most people, given the opportunity to draw something, will draw a nob.

Peter Molyneux: That's the interesting thing, you see. We've been very, very clever about this. Although you can put stuff in his world, you'll notice he never shows you the stuff. So although you could do obscene stuff, he'll just look at it and he won't understand it. He won't pin that picture up on the wall, because I'm fully aware people will do things like that.
:lol

edit, beaten! :(
 
Peter Molyneux: A lot of stuff, like the voice recognition stuff, is based on things like Windows 7 technology. We just went round and took all that stuff and fitted it together. The interesting thing is, a lot of that stuff existed without reason - and when you bring it all together with something like this, it kind of works.

Interesting, he is quite reserved there, strange for Peter.
 
Raist said:
This stuff is so advanced that it looks like it can predict the player's actions :O :O
In the gamersyde video, at 2:41, it really looks like the on-screen chick moves and touches the water before the RL one does. So, huh, yeah...
You are so right...
9gx9p3.gif
 
TheOddOne said:
Might as well post it here also:

Eurogamer interview with Molyneux


:lol :lol :lol

Those bits of the interview aren't interesting (OK, so maybe we do want porn games based on this technology). I really want to know: WHAT IS THIS MILO PROJECT ABOUT?


Clues from the interview:

Eurogamer: So what can Milo do?

Peter Molyneux: Milo can recognise the emotions on your face and the emotions in your voice. He can recognise certain words you say. You can have conversations with him, you can read stories to him. We're trying to bring all these things together. Some of them are tricks - I'll be absolutely honest with you - to make you believe Milo's real.

He can recognise what you're wearing. If he notices you've got dark bags under your eyes he will say, 'You look tired today.'

Eurogamer: Really?

Peter Molyneux: Absolutely, all of that works. We're combining all that together to make you really believe that he understands what you say.

Let's try an experiment. When a human voice says something funny, there's a different tone in the voice. Even though Milo's not trained to recognise your voice, if you say something funny to him, he should recognise it as something amusing. Try it now.

[...]

Peter Molyneux: Now, he didn't really understand every word you said, but from the tone of your voice he guessed you were telling a joke.

[...]

Peter Molyneux: You can buy stuff for Milo's world, like a bicycle or a trampoline. He'll come back from school one day and say, 'Oh, Alex' - Alex is this character at school who always does a bit better than Milo - 'Alex has got a new bike. When can we get a new bike?'

To get that bike you need to earn money by doing activities. There are three activities you can do, and the amount of time you spend on each activity sculpts your Milo in different ways - so everybody's Milo will be completely unique to them.

If you do lots of work, your Milo will be very studious. His hair will have a side parting. He'll be quite worried about his appearance and he won't like to get dirty. Whereas if you do more of the play stuff with Milo, he'll be more of a kid who goes out and scratches his knees.

Your character doesn't have to be a boy, it can be a girl. At the start you can choose whether to be play as Milly or Milo.


[...]

Eurogamer: You said he only understands certain words. So presumably you can't have a conversation about the situation in Palestine?

Peter Molyneux: The number of words he understands is built up over time. For Claire [the lady who demoed a conversation with Milo during Microsoft's conference], it's something like 500 words.

But we haven't cracked the real problem, which is him understanding the meaning of it all. He'll give you the illusion he does that. The interesting thing is you can only talk to him when the Talk icon appears at the bottom of the screen. That's when he's listening to you; the rest of the time, he's not. He's listening to you because there's a context in which you can talk to him.

One of the journalists who came in before you had obviously read up on the Turing test. He asked Milo one of the questions in the test - 'Do you remember when we met yesterday?' Well, of course, we haven't cracked the Turing test. If we had, then applying it to a computer game would be the last of the solutions we'd use it for.


OK, so as far as I can tell:

(1) Molyneux DOES understand the limits of his AI project and isn't trying to let it pass the Turing Test. (If I were there I would embarass the hell out of Milo with really simple questions that most AIs can't handle.. :lol)

(2) As long as Molyneux carves out a specific "subworld" (as Hubert Dreyfuss would put it) with some form of pre-established rules and a framework to operate in, which is basically how games are nowadays, then Project Milo could work.

(3) Welcome gentleman, to 360's Tamagotchi Plus.

(I would like to have one for the PS3 as well.)
 
gantz85 said:
OK, so as far as I can tell:

(1) Molyneux DOES understand the limits of his AI project and isn't trying to let it pass the Turing Test. (If I were there I would embarass the hell out of Milo with really simple questions that most AIs can't handle.. :lol)

(2) As long as Molyneux carves out a specific "subworld" (as Hubert Dreyfuss would put it) with some form of pre-established rules and a framework to operate in, which is basically how games are nowadays, then Project Milo could work.

(3) Welcome gentleman, to 360's Tamagotchi Plus.

(I would like to have one for the PS3 as well.)
This is why EyePet is so much of a better idea. You can't call a dog a bastard and hope he reacts negatively, playing with a pet instantly limits you to the fact they're really stupid. Where as I can't see how he can limit what we do with a person to the point it could ever work.
 
stuburns said:
This is why EyePet is so much of a better idea. You can't call a dog a bastard and hope he reacts negatively, playing with a pet instantly limits you to the fact they're really stupid. Where as I can't see how he can limit what we do with a person to the point it could ever work.

Agreed with qualification - I think as long as they limit the possible interactions it could work.

Also, those PET games are presumably played mostly by children, who aren't interested in doing complex things with their pets. If adults play with EYEPet, they're also presumably interested in doing "pet-like" things with the pet. It won't occur to them to converse with the pet.

We'll see though.
 
I enjoyed Seaman a lot so this is looking pretty exciting to me. Any word yet on when we can expect this? Or when the camera device will go on sale?
 
TheKingOfSheep said:
I enjoyed Seaman a lot so this is looking pretty exciting to me. Any word yet on when we can expect this? Or when the camera device will go on sale?


2010 and $200 has been mentioned, but it's only speculation I believe.
 
So basically 90% of the things people want Milo to do, he won't do because he doesn't "understand"them. I see where he's going for with this and I don't want to sound like a pessimistic asshole, but this is doomed to fail.

Very interesting experiment though and it can only get better than what I currently think of it. Who knows maybe Molyneux will finally be able to achieve what he promises us this time.
 
gantz85 said:
Agreed with qualification - I think as long as they limit the possible interactions it could work.

Also, those PET games are presumably played mostly by children, who aren't interested in doing complex things with their pets. If adults play with EYEPet, they're also presumably interested in doing "pet-like" things with the pet. It won't occur to them to converse with the pet.

We'll see though.

Well, you don't have to converse with it for it to be a 'Tamagotchi Plus'.

Trying to create a 'human pet' is certainly a tall order, with a much more demanding set of criteria to judge it by, than that of a virtual animal. You can get away with a lot more with an animal. But that's why I really admire Molyneux for even trying to do this, it's quite ballsy.

Unfortunately it would never happen, but a part of me would love if Lionhead and Sony's London studio could collaborate on a 'pet' project like this. I'd love to see what a mix of Molyneux's 'emotional AI' and maybe eyepet's image/drawing recognition (pending seeing how that actually works...) could do for stuff like this.

x3n05 said:
2010 and $200 has been mentioned, but it's only speculation I believe.

No way this thing comes in over $99, probably a bit lower than that too. When 3DV were talking about it previously, they were talking about sub-$100 numbers IIRC.
 
This was definitely the most impressive AI demo I've seen in any form of entertainment.

Molyneux has finally done something revolutionary. Hats off.
 
x3n05 said:
2010 and $200 has been mentioned, but it's only speculation I believe.

What $ 200,-?! Just for the camera? Or does it come with Milo? But I guess I would pay for that. I mean It's pretty cool. I wonder if you can slap Milo around a bit. See if he turns out disfunctional.
 
gofreak said:
Well, you don't have to converse with it for it to be a 'Tamagotchi Plus'.

Trying to create a 'human pet' is certainly a tall order, with a much more demanding set of criteria to judge it by, than that of a virtual animal. You can get away with a lot more with an animal. But that's why I really admire Molyneux for even trying to do this, it's quite ballsy.

Unfortunately it would never happen, but a part of me would love if Lionhead and Sony's London studio could collaborate on a 'pet' project like this. I'd love to see what a mix of Molyneux's 'emotional AI' and maybe eyepet's image/drawing recognition (pending seeing how that actually works...) could do for stuff like this.

Molyneux's plans for Black & White and Fable were ballsy. Doesn't mean he lived up to them, also doesn't mean he'll live up to this one.

I don't know if he has to get his games approved by Microsoft, but if he does, they're letting him because they're going to try sneaking this in as a new frontline in gaming.

Also, I would be incredibly surprised if EYEpet didn't have "emotional" AI; where the AI couldn't recognize your mood to some extent.
 
OK, so as far as I can tell:

(1) Molyneux DOES understand the limits of his AI project and isn't trying to let it pass the Turing Test. (If I were there I would embarass the hell out of Milo with really simple questions that most AIs can't handle.. )

(2) As long as Molyneux carves out a specific "subworld" (as Hubert Dreyfuss would put it) with some form of pre-established rules and a framework to operate in, which is basically how games are nowadays, then Project Milo could work.

(3) Welcome gentleman, to 360's Tamagotchi Plus.

(I would like to have one for the PS3 as well.)

You're still complaining that it's trying to do something that it hasn't set out to do, no-one is creating self aware intelligences FFS.

Basically, it's a pretty convincing demo of how the Natal stuff can be used in some sort of adventure game, specifically to increase immersion when interacting with an NPC. It's a demonstration of the fact that Natal can recognise faces, has voice recognition, can recognise facial gestures and tone of voice, can recognise body gestures (putting on the goggles), and interpret simple pictures. It then mixes all this in a kind of gamey way, so we can imagine how it might work. All pretty cool, and all pretty plausible.

However, then in his traditional way, Molyneux then makes some ridiculous pie-in-the-sky claims where he kind of implies that he's simulating the soul of a child or something, which is clearly bollocks. But if you merely take it as a proof-of-concept for the Netal tech stuff, it's very impressive.
 
RubberJohnny said:
You're still complaining that it's trying to do something that it hasn't set out to do, no-one is creating self aware intelligences FFS.

(...)

However, then in his traditional way, Molyneux then makes some ridiculous pie-in-the-sky claims where he kind of implies that he's simulating the soul of a child or something, which is clearly bollocks. But if you merely take it as a proof-of-concept for the Netal tech stuff, it's very impressive.


Does not compute. Your post is stupid.
 
So if I yell 'MILO DROP YOUR PANTS AND TAKE IT LIKE A MAN!!!'
I assume he will display signs of fear and maybe even start whimpering and crying?

I know he won’t 'understand' my words but I assume that he'll be able to tell from my facial expressions and tone of my voice that I mean him harm?

That’s all I need to get off anyway.
Day one.
 
I just really want to know... is that video...

1) Fair representation of the game.
2) Scripted actress feeding it lines.
3) Scripted actress in time with a pre-recorded video.

I ask about the 3rd because the boy spoke her name aloud. Typically speaking when that happens it sounds artificial not natural. It seems here rather that her name was already in his voice list. Then there's that mis-timing with the fishing.

Problem is I'd like to see how good the tech really is with the motion capture. So they're cheating to pretend this crazy AI works... now we don't get to see a demonstration of Natal since that's staged of the 3rd possibility is true.
 
I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the .gif up above, it really is quite damning. If its pre-scripted to that extent, then we really don't know what we're dealing with in terms of voice or face recognition yet. Impressions from journalists will need to be quite detailed.
 
Firestreak said:
I just really want to know... is that video...

1) Fair representation of the game.
2) Scripted actress feeding it lines.
3) Scripted actress in time with a pre-recorded video.

I ask about the 3rd because the boy spoke her name aloud. Typically speaking when that happens it sounds artificial not natural. It seems here rather that her name was already in his voice list. Then there's that mis-timing with the fishing.

Problem is I'd like to see how good the tech really is with the motion capture. So they're cheating to pretend this crazy AI works... now we don't get to see a demonstration of Natal since that's staged of the 3rd possibility is true.


They had what, 3 months to work with it? Or 6 months? In NO WAY can they get so far as to have the AI work as shown on the marketing video. It was scripted. Not in any way a fair representation of the game.

It was more a vertical slice telling you what Molyneux wanted the game to be.
 
TheKingOfSheep said:
What $ 200,-?! Just for the camera? Or does it come with Milo? But I guess I would pay for that. I mean It's pretty cool. I wonder if you can slap Milo around a bit. See if he turns out disfunctional.


I read that somewhere within the sea of info here on GAF. It was speculative though and if MS are talking about packing the device in with 360's I don't see it costing $200, if it does cost that much it will probably end up being very niche.
 
You know it wouldn't have to be an animal like eyepet or something to be believable interactions.

What about like... just some dude who doesn't speak any english. Or an alien!?
 
I love the Eurogamer interview, especially the joke bit.

Peter Molyneux: Absolutely, all of that works. We're combining all that together to make you really believe that he understands what you say.

Let's try an experiment. When a human voice says something funny, there's a different tone in the voice. Even though Milo's not trained to recognise your voice, if you say something funny to him, he should recognise it as something amusing. Try it now.

Eurogamer: Tell him a joke, you mean?

Peter Molyneux: Yeah.

Eurogamer: OK. Milo?

Milo: [Looks up, smiles and nods]

Eurogamer: Bloody hell. Er, OK. A Times New Roman walks into a bar. The barman says, 'We don't serve your type.'

Milo: [Giggles]

Eurogamer: Bloody hell.

Peter Molyneux: Now, he didn't really understand every word you said, but from the tone of your voice he guessed you were telling a joke.

Eurogamer: But I put it to you, Peter, that was not a very good joke. So the fact he laughed at it demonstrates a serious flaw within the software.

Peter Molyneux: Well, that wasn't a real laugh. That was a polite giggle. Let's move on.
 
Firestreak said:
I ask about the 3rd because the boy spoke her name aloud. Typically speaking when that happens it sounds artificial not natural. It seems here rather that her name was already in his voice list.

In B&W they pre-recorded a bunch of names, they didn't try to mimic the sound by the spelling alone. Of course, if you weren't on the list you were screwed, but..

(They used the names for eerie whispers of your name on the wind, alongside the whispers of 'deeaaaaatttthhh').

So that alone wouldn't be suspicious to me.

gantz85 said:
Molyneux's plans for Black & White and Fable were ballsy. Doesn't mean he lived up to them, also doesn't mean he'll live up to this one.

I know all about it, I was burned badly on B&W hype, particularly on the AI front. But I still admire him for trying to do ambitious stuff.
 
Firestreak said:
You know it wouldn't have to be an animal like eyepet or something to be believable interactions.

What about like... just some dude who doesn't speak any english. Or an alien!?

Look up PARRY Turing Test.

One of the most believable entries in the Turing Test's history is PARRY, who conversants believed to be an insane dude.
 
Firestreak said:
You know it wouldn't have to be an animal like eyepet or something to be believable interactions.

What about like... just some dude who doesn't speak any english. Or an alien!?

bebe_ewok.jpg



Give me an Ewok over Milo any day. :lol
 
By the way, thanks to whoever linked the Seaman vids. Hilarious :lol I never played it before but I think I wanna get it now. Never struck me before, but the face really looks like shane kim :p

edit - :o did seaman really play 'the way we were' when your seaman dies? :lol or is that just this guys video?
 
If they had to make a boy they should have named him John.
Basically you get to interact with John and train him to eventually become Master Chief Petty Officer John-117.

That way you at least get the Halo fans on board.
 
gantz85 said:
Look up PARRY Turing Test.

One of the most believable entries in the Turing Test's history is PARRY, who conversants believed to be an insane dude.

Just been reading up on Parry, very interesting conversation here with the Doctor.

Now that was in 1973, have we gone much further with a final product? (not including the current work that is being done with Blue Gene).
 
x3n05 said:
Just been reading up on Parry, very interesting conversion here with the Doctor.

Now that was in 1973, have we gone much further with a final product? (not including the current work that is being done with Blue Gene).

I can tell you, sadly, the relevant bottlenecks for AI hasn't changed much since 1973. They are still trying to figure out the human brain.
 
After seeing this demo I knew right away Molyneux's next project will be Black & White 3.

It's just a natural extension of this.
 
gantz85 said:
(1) Molyneux DOES understand the limits of his AI project and isn't trying to let it pass the Turing Test. (If I were there I would embarass the hell out of Milo with really simple questions that most AIs can't handle.. :lol)

What kind of questions would you ask, and how would the A.I. react to make this happen.

I believe you, I'm just intrigued by the comment.
 
eurogamer hands-on (the devil inside me wants to make a stupid joke everytime I write "hands on" about something Natal, please help me) : http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-project-natal-hands-on

First up is Peter Molyneux's new baby. As you'll know if you followed our live text, Milo is the name of the new AI character in development at Lionhead Studios. And as you'll know if you read our interview with Peter Molyneux, or could have predicted if you know anything about Peter Molyneux, Kate is the name of a dog.

SO THERE'S INDEED A GODDAMN DOG.

I can finally rest now :P
 
I just saw the E3 event and wow that's pretty awesome. Imagine a game like The Sims with that technology. Fucking awesome.

One thing I feel is it can break easily. Like if you say something wrong or strange he won't get it or do anything. I don't get how the voice works either is it pre-recorded or what?
 
Eurogamer said:
Molyneux invites me to go and look at the fish in the river, as seen in the E3 press conference. The water effects are stunning anyway, but to see yourself reflected within them is astonishing. "Swish the water about a bit," says Molyneux, so I do. There are one or two odd moments where the water doesn't quite seem to flow naturally, but once again, the overall effect is highly impressive.

This was the part that amazed me the most. If they can actually deliver on that sort of thing, this will really be amazing.
 
The Frankman said:
this. I'd rather have a real convo with an real person talking through a user-created avi. But hey whatever floats some people's boat.

Well standard Live conversations with unknown people are filled with curse words so this sort of lets you interact without being abused and cursed at.
 
DMeisterJ said:
What kind of questions would you ask, and how would the A.I. react to make this happen.

I believe you, I'm just intrigued by the comment.
In general, you want to ask questions whose context is very difficult to "guess" from the structure of the sentences alone, but is very easy for a human to think through. There was an example in the article earlier--"Do you remember when we met yesterday?" To be able to respond in a meaningful way to a sentence like that requires a whole lot of things to work that humans take for granted--keeping in mind that the human brain has a pretty large section devoted solely to natural language processing. There are a lot of very intelligent people working on these problems, but what it ultimately comes down to is that we still have a long, long way to go before we can get close to believable human-computer conversation (outside of psychiatric analysis like Eliza, of course).
 
gantz85 said:
T
(3) Welcome gentleman, to 360's Tamagotchi Plus.

(I would like to have one for the PS3 as well.)

Get Eyepet when its out. More like a Tamagochi without the creepiness.
 
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